Penang Hokkien vs Medan Hokkien

[Shawn.Lin]

Hi all,

Long time on and off lurker here. I was born in Medan but moved to Australia when I was little. I am trying to get in touch with my Chinese roots in the last few years now by learning both mandarin and hokkien. I can listen to hokkien quite well but am hopeless at trying to speak it.

My question is are any differences between Penang Hokkien and Medan Hokkien? I have an aunty and a work mate from Penang and to me their accent is exactly like mine. And since they are so similar maybe we should come up with a new collective name for Penang/ Medan hokkien? The Medan variant rarely gets mentioned.

[Mark Yong]

Hello, Shawn,

From my limited exposure to Medan Hokkien (I speak Penang Hokkien), the vocabulary, pronunciation and tones are very similar to Penang Hokkien. The main difference would be slightly more intrusion of Malay/Indonesian words.

For instance, I am given to understand that Medan Hokkien speakers tend to use a resumptive particle "Itu, 'kan..." from Malay/Indonesian at the start of sentences.

[SimL]

Hi Shawn,

Nice to meet you.

We have some parallels, as I was born in Malaysia and went to Australia when I was little too. My parents went to live in Darwin, so that is where I spent my teens, then I studied in Canberra, and then went back to Darwin to live. Nowadays I live in the Netherlands.

Seeing as this thread is Penang Hokkien vs Medan Hokkien, I'll take the liberty of posting this question (and others, as they arise) here.

I'm currently reading an article on North Sumatran Hokkien (which is probably exactly the variety of your family, Shawn). In it, the author uses the character 喙 for "chui3" (= "mouth"). I have up to now always thought that "chui" was written 嘴 (on the basis of the meaning, and phonetic similarity to the Mandarin pronunciation). Now, 喙 Mandarin "hui4" = "beak, bill, snout / to pant" is somewhat similar in meaning, but there is less phonetic similarity.

Which is the better character to use?

Also, the author uses 涂 for "thO5" (= "earth"). I've always thought it was 土 (again, on the basis of the meaning, and phonetic similarity to the Mandarin pronunciation). In this case, 涂 Mandarin "tu2" = "spread on, apply; scrawl; blot/cross out; smear, daub, paint" fits quite well in terms of pronunciation, but less so for the meaning.

Again, which is the better character to use?

[xng]

Hi Shawn,

I'm currently reading an article on North Sumatran Hokkien (which is probably exactly the variety of your family, Shawn). In it, the author uses the character 喙 for "chui3" (= "mouth"). I have up to now always thought that "chui" was written 嘴 (on the basis of the meaning, and phonetic similarity to the Mandarin pronunciation). Now, 喙 Mandarin "hui4" = "beak, bill, snout / to pant" is somewhat similar in meaning, but there is less phonetic similarity.

Which is the better character to use?

Also, the author uses 涂 for "thO5" (= "earth"). I've always thought it was 土 (again, on the basis of the meaning, and phonetic similarity to the Mandarin pronunciation). In this case, 涂 Mandarin "tu2" = "spread on, apply; scrawl; blot/cross out; smear, daub, paint" fits quite well in terms of pronunciation, but less so for the meaning.

Again, which is the better character to use?

I thought everyone would have read my thread on original hokkien characters by now. Some of the original characters can be gleaned from Cantonese as they share the same roots eg. cantonese use "jui" which is 嘴 so this is the correct original character.

土 is the correct character.

A lot of articles including Taiwan used the wrong characters bcos they weren't educated on the original characters.

[Andrew]

Hi Shawn,

Nice to meet you.

We have some parallels, as I was born in Malaysia and went to Australia when I was little too. My parents went to live in Darwin, so that is where I spent my teens, then I studied in Canberra, and then went back to Darwin to live. Nowadays I live in the Netherlands.

Seeing as this thread is Penang Hokkien vs Medan Hokkien, I'll take the liberty of posting this question (and others, as they arise) here.

I'm currently reading an article on North Sumatran Hokkien (which is probably exactly the variety of your family, Shawn). In it, the author uses the character 喙 for "chui3" (= "mouth"). I have up to now always thought that "chui" was written 嘴 (on the basis of the meaning, and phonetic similarity to the Mandarin pronunciation). Now, 喙 Mandarin "hui4" = "beak, bill, snout / to pant" is somewhat similar in meaning, but there is less phonetic similarity.

Which is the better character to use?

Also, the author uses 涂 for "thO5" (= "earth"). I've always thought it was 土 (again, on the basis of the meaning, and phonetic similarity to the Mandarin pronunciation). In this case, 涂 Mandarin "tu2" = "spread on, apply; scrawl; blot/cross out; smear, daub, paint" fits quite well in terms of pronunciation, but less so for the meaning.

Again, which is the better character to use?

The Mandarin characters are similar in pronunciation, but they don't work because they are the wrong tones. I am not sure whether the tone correspondences are so reliable to be overriding, but that's the general position that is taken by the Hokkien language community. ThO5 is also written as a 涂 over a 土.

[Mark Yong]

Hi, Sim,

Like you, I was initially inclined to think that chui3 'mouth' should be 嘴. However, all the references I have seen thus far point to 喙 as the correct character. So, as much as I would like to bend to my instincts, am afraid I will have to defer to the overwhelming strength of the experts' opinion for now.

On the subject of 土 and 塗. I checked my copy of the Chiang Chiu dictionary. It gives 土 tO3 as 'earth' or 'soil', or by extension, 'local'. 塗 tO2, however, refers specifically to 'mud' or 'clay', e.g. 塗糜 tO2-moi. Note the difference in tone, too - the former is rising, the latter is low-flat. Though, I wonder why tO-k'a 'floor' is quoted in the dictionary as 塗骹 and not 土.

Regards,
Mark

[Andrew]

Hi, Sim,

Like you, I was initially inclined to think that chui3 'mouth' should be 嘴. However, all the references I have seen thus far point to 喙 as the correct character. So, as much as I would like to bend to my instincts, am afraid I will have to defer to the overwhelming strength of the experts' opinion for now.

On the subject of 土 and 塗. I checked my copy of the Chiang Chiu dictionary. It gives 土 tO3 as 'earth' or 'soil', or by extension, 'local'. 塗 tO2, however, refers specifically to 'mud' or 'clay', e.g. 塗糜 tO2-moi. Note the difference in tone, too - the former is rising, the latter is low-flat. Though, I wonder why tO-k'a 'floor' is quoted in the dictionary as 塗骹 and not 土.

Mark - what tones are you using?

[Mark Yong]

Andrew,

My apologies, I think once again, I am guilty of using non-standard tone numberings! I took the numbers straight from my copy of 閩南語章腔辭典. It gives:

1 陰平
2 陽平
3 上聲
4 (none)
5 陰去
6 陽去
7 陰入
8 陽入

[Andrew]

[quote="Mark Yong"]On the subject of 土 and 塗. I checked my copy of the Chiang Chiu dictionary. It gives 土 tO3 as 'earth' or 'soil', or by extension, 'local'. 塗 tO2, however, refers specifically to 'mud' or 'clay', e.g. 塗糜 tO2-moi. Note the difference in tone, too - the former is rising, the latter is low-flat. Though, I wonder why tO-k'a 'floor' is quoted in the dictionary as 塗骹 and not 土.

Because if 土 is 上聲, then it sounds wrong in thO22-kha44.

[xng]

Hi, Sim,

Like you, I was initially inclined to think that chui3 'mouth' should be 嘴. However, all the references I have seen thus far point to 喙 as the correct character. So, as much as I would like to bend to my instincts, am afraid I will have to defer to the overwhelming strength of the experts' opinion for now.

Mark

Sorry but I don't quite agree for several reasons.

1. 喙 means beak and not mouth.

2. 喙 has the sound Hui in mandarin, Fui in cantonese. Usually a Hui in mandarin would translate to Hui in minnan too.

3. Let's assume your assumption that 喙 is pronounced as C'ui as a single character (colloquail sound) but when combined in a literary word , it must be pronounced as Hui since mandarin and cantonese has similar sound. But 插嘴 is pronounced as C'ap C'ui and not C'ap Hui (插喙) in Minnan.

Furthermore, 插嘴 is used in cantonese (C'ap Cui) and mandarin (C'a Cui) too and this proves that 嘴 is the correct character instead of 喙.