Pronunciation of some characters

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
elmer
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:12 pm
Location: Netherlands

Pronunciation of some characters

Post by elmer »

Sorry if I seem to be impatient. I am struck by the genealogical virus. It seems to be without cure :lol:

Can anybody tell me what these characters would probably be pronounced like in the region between Zhangzhou city and Xiamen city:

逸: it, ek, iat?
人: jin, chhin, lang?
台: tai, thai, i?
旦: tan, toann, hoann?
星: chhen, seng, san?
茂: bo, am, an?

thanx,
Elmer
Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Post by Abun »

If you ask me, I would guess:

逸 i̍t (not totally sure, but Kangxi 夷質切 would render this and Korean and Japanese readings also suggest a -t final, so I assume that at least the literary reading would have a -t. ia̍t would be an option, but I can't find it anywhere but the MoE dictionary, so I guess it's not a common reading)
人jîn (I have never heard of the pronounciation chhîn... lâng is a colloquial reading and as far as I know not even the same word etymogically, which reduces the probability for this reading even further if you ask me)
台 tâi (can't say this one for sure. I would rule out thai because that reading seems to be restricted to 天台, a place name in modern Zhejiang 浙江 province. Of the remaining two I can't completely rule out either. I would tend to tâi, simply because it seems by far more common to me. If your family was moderately well-learnt though (which I assume they were if they were able to keep these records), the reading î should at least not have been completely unknown to them since I can find numerous examples of this reading especially in the Book of Documents 尚書, one of the Five Classics 五經)
旦 tàn (tòaⁿ is a colloquial reading and therefore unlikely in personal names. I couldn't find hòaⁿ anywhere, but even if I could, I would assume that it's a colloquial reading much rather than a literary one)
星 sing (the other two are colloquial readings)
茂 bō͘ (Kangxi fits perfectly and Korean reading (couldn't find the Japanese one) agrees that there shouldn't be a final nasal. Also, ōm (don't know where am and an come from) is marked as an ersatz character in the MoE dict)

Like I said, this is nothing definite, only guesses with varying certainties. Happy to accept others' corrections where I guessed wrong.
elmer
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:12 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Post by elmer »

Thanks, Your guess is certainly better than mine.

Here are some more characters I struggle with:

中 tiong tiòng tèng chhian chiong3 tong
強 kiâng kiāng kiunn7 khiáng kian7 kiong2
量 lēng liāng niū niû nē
長 tiâng chiang2 tiong2 tiunn2 tng5
盤 phoân pôaⁿ piâⁿ khoan5 poan5
程 thêⁿ thêng thiann5 tiann5 teng5

thanks in advance!
Elmer
Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Post by Abun »

中 tiong and tiòng are both possible, they correspond to Mandarin zhong and zhòng respectively. The former has the basic meaning "middle" and the latter "hit" (with an arrow for example, i.e. "hit the middle"). If you're unsure, I would generally guess that tiong is more common.
強 same problem, at least three readings are possible with different meanings. These are (in order of probability): kiâng (strong, powerful, corresponding to Mandarin qiáng), kiáng (to strive, to force, corresponding to Mandarin qiǎng), kiāng (heatstrong, stubborn, corresponding to Mandarin jiàng). I haven't heard about the readings with kh- before, but fhl says about khiáng that "it is probably etymogically a transformation of Nanjing dialect" (語源應該是南京官話ê轉化), so I guess these are non-standard readings.
量 either liâng (to measure, cf. Mand. liáng) or liāng (number, amount, extent, capacity, cf. liàng). In this case I can't see that much difference in the frequency they occur, both are about equally possible. Kangxi indicates that this character is probably read liang instead of liong (in both tonal variants) in Chiangchiu-style dialects and Douglas indeed lists that reading at least for the 7th tone reading, so I'm guessing your family would have read liâng or liāng instead of liông or liōng.
長 I would guess either tiâng (long, cf. cháng) or tiáng (to grow, older, senior, head/chief, cf. zhǎng).
盤 not sure about this one. puânn is definitely a colloquial reading, but I find conflicting info about whether the literary one should be poân or phoân.
程 either têng or thêng. I have heard of both readings and in those contexts they were exchangable. However, of the dictionaries I used, only the MoE one had têng while all had thêng, so I guess that's the more common reading.
elmer
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:12 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Post by elmer »

That's great. It really limits the options. I guess I am going to use the most common pronunciation and/or the most beautiful / positive word.

Maybe some characters?

thanks again,
Elmer

唐 tng tông pong5 ta
曲 khek khiau khiàu khiok
寬 khoan khoaⁿ khòaⁿ khng3
天 phian phin thian thinn
樸 phok phak phoh phoh8
益 ek iah ah it
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Post by amhoanna »

I'm with Abun on most of his analyses. I commented on most of these in a spreadsheet that I just sent to U, Elmer.

Great use of the word "ersatz" BTW, Abun. 8)

中: in names it would be "tiong"

強: kiông in Amoy, but poss. kiâng in Kakbe. Would need confirmation from someone w/ a grasp of the micro-dialects.

量: in names, most definitely liōng/liāng (again, a Kakbe issue)

長: tiông/tiâng (Kakbe)

盤、程:tricky indeed… These may or may not have Kakbe issues. For TW I would use poân, têng.
That's great. It really limits the options. I guess I am going to use the most common pronunciation and/or the most beautiful / positive word.
No, don't do this!! :shock: We should be able to get everything down to EXACTLY how your family had it. Names are not fungible quantities.
elmer
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:12 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Post by elmer »

Thanks, I really appreciate all your help. And it is amazing to meet people who are so thorough as you are. The list is getting really smaller now.

I am going to put some more characters here:
俶 chhiok siok thek
瑱 chin thian3 tian5
田 chhân chhian5 tian5 tian7
與 í u5 u7 hou7
乾 kan khiân koann ta
伯 peh pek pit pa3
曲 khek khiau khiàu khiok
樸 phok phak phoh phoh8

again, thanks!
Elmer
Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Post by Abun »

俶: The only Minnan dict that I can find this one in is Campbell (https://github.com/lukhnos/openvanilla/ ... j-holo.cin) with exactly these pronounciations but no translation. Kangxi gives three different pronunciations but as far as I can see two of these render the same in Minnan (昌六切 and 尺六切) wich leaves us with two pronunciations: tshiok (which according to Kangxi can mean things ranging from "beginning" over "to compose" and "neat" to "good") and thek (which seems to go in the direction of "noble, corteous" and "outstanding"). I don't feel competent enough to give advice as to which is more probable as a personal name.
瑱: Same problem, only in Campbell and Kangxi, and the latter one actually provides even two more, 他典切--> thián and another one which is probably renders tsìn in Minnan (although it is a bit obscure because another Fanqie for apparently the same pronunciation is listed as 陟刃切, which, if I'm not mistaken, should be tìn. However because it also says that it should sound the same as 鎮 chìn, I guess that this is the pronunciation to go for). This last one is also attested as a name. Still, I would guess that chin is quite possible, too, simply because it would most probably be the most intuitive reading for an unknown character which includes 真.
田: Chhân is colloquial and I have never heard of another literary reading than tiân. Although I can find chhiân and tiān in Kangxi as well, they seem to hardly ever occur and both involve losing your farmland, so I think we can safely assume that tiân is the one to go for.
與: Hō͘ is colloquial. Of the other three, my guess would be í for the following reasons: First, this one seems to be one of the words which have -i in Chiangchiu and -u in Amoy (-ir in Chuanchiu). If Kakbé tends to be largely Chiangchiu-influenced, then I would guess for an -i instead of -u. Then there's the question of tone. Actually, this one according to Kangxi should be originally 6th tone, which merged with 7th tone. However, I have the feeling that most 6th-tone words have their literary readings in 2nd tone instead, so my money would be on í.
乾: Ta and koann are colloquial readings. Of the other two, kan has the general meaning of "dry" (cf. Mand. gān) and khiân is one of the 8 trigrams (八卦; cf. Mand. qián) which often represents masculinity or the heaven. I have seen the latter one in names, but only those of emperors and given the connection to heaven I'm not sure that was possible for somebody else.
伯: Peh is colloquial. Kangxi has phek (博陌切, although this one is also supposed to sound like 百 pek), pe̍k (蒲各切), pek (壁益切) and pò͘ (博故切. Considering the ph-p confusion in the first one, this might be phò͘, too). Simply by frequency, I would tend to choose pek.
曲: Depends on whether this is a personal or a family name. As a family name it should be Khiok if I'm not mistaken. As a personal name, I am not sure. This character has two different meanings, one being "crooked", sometimes "false" and the other referring to pieces of music. According to my information, khiau and khik are their respective colloquial readings. Khiàu I have never heard of. As for khiok, both meanings are listed under this one in Kangxi, but I find that hard to believe because it indicates that they used to be the same in Mandarin. But they are pronounced differently nowadays (qū for "crooked" and qǔ for "piece of music"), which can't be explained if they were the same before... Opinions anyone?
樸: Phoh and pho̍h are colloquial. As possible literary readings, Kangxi provides phak (匹角切, but says it's supposed to sound like 璞 phok), phok (博木切), po̍k (步木切), pô͘ (薄胡切) and phò͘ (普故切). The latter three seem rater rare, especially pô͘ can probably ruled out because it's only used in an ancient place name. Considering the first two are much more in use and are read phok (or are unclear about whether it's phak or phok), I would guess phok, but can't say for sure of course.
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Post by amhoanna »

aBun's analyses are once again spot-on, for the most part. 與 I think will be ú -- this is where Kakbe patterns with Amoy instead of the rest of Ciangciu. This resource has been recommended:

http://ishare.iask.sina.com.cn/f/36627969.html

I should've looked for it earlier. Didn't realize Kakbe was part of Lionghai! :oops:

We are on our own now.

Elmer, if U can hold the presses for a day or two, we will have the whole thing figured out.
Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Post by Abun »

I'm sorry, I'm not that versed in the fine differences between dialects yet... What are the other differences between Kak-bí-uē und Chiang-chiu-uē apart from the i-u issue?
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