Well, what a variety of responses my first letter has got! I need to make things a bit clearer for those in denial.
1. I have lived in Hong Kong and Australia, both of which have a huge cantonese speaking population. I am immersed in the society. When my boss calls, he speaks cantonese. When I talk to my girlfriend, it is in Cantonese. When I work, I have to use Cantonese with clients. it isnt to show off, and to suggest so shows the writers immaturity (that persons name "ANON")I am entitled to the same respect as an equal, and not to be referred to as a "Ghost" and laughed at for being fluent in Cantonese. can you imagine being laughed at in public by a stranger when you are talking to a friend? It isnt nice. To those who doubt my fluency, I have worked in Hong Kong as a Bank Teller and retail manager in a insurance company, with all non-english speaking staff and customers.
2. The difference between Western racism with Chinese racism is this : Chinese think it is OK to be racist as it is "cultural". There racism is not explicit, they wont beat you for being different; it is not physical. The Chinese are racist in that they use degoratory language for non-asians, assume all westerners are the same, and all westerners are sex crazed over-weight people incapable of speaking anything other than english. STEREOTYPES!
Filipino = Bun Mooi
Pakastani = Ah Cha (Bad person)
Westerner = GwaiLo (Ghost man, Devil man)
Arab = Szap Jong Gwai (mixed race bastard)
Black = Hak Gwai (Black ghost)
3. To those who say it is OK to call whites Ghosts cause it is just a word that lost its meaning, i say think again. 100 years in America it was acceptable to have slavery, and 50 years ago it was Ok to kill Jews. Nigger, slope, chink were all acceptable words once upon a time, are they acceptable now? The people at that time would have thought so; it doesnt make it right.They would have said it was there "culture" and "rights" to use those words, too.
Nollie brings up an excellent point. The reason racism continues in Chinese culture is cause so few westerns learn chinese and penetrate that culture, thus there is never "another point of view".
I am happy to participate in chinese society, and been given opportunities to progress within it, despite being a different race. Yet it is also putting me in a hard position,I feel I am one little young western guy up against hundreds of years of chinese culture in trying to get people to recognise the racism.If I had to pinpoint the once failing of chinese culture, it is the entrenched racism and the failure of the community, as demonstrated by some writers here, to recognise and change this. keep on denying it! gai jok fao yeng ha!
Radioboy
My Experience (Part 2)
-
Anon
Re: My Experience (Part 2)
This is a no win situation. How can you call yourself the little western guy up against Chinese culture/HK in its entirety? Hongkong has a myriad multiculturalism. If you herald your having lived in Hongkong for so long, then i find it suprising how you could have learnt so little from your being there. Of course i'm talking about your former comments on the language being nowt but rude, offensive, racist language. Many terms you describe above are in inexistance only in the vernecular, i doubt you'd ever find them used in written media.
You make yourself sound like the severest victim. Who hasn't experienced racism before? Heck, i still do experience it when travelling around the UK and into Europe, so don't give me 'Chinese think racism is perfectly fine'. Going to Margate to the seaside, getting funny looks from the locals like they've never seen a foreign person before. Having 'chink chong cha wa blah blah blah' shouted from across the street by children whose parents just stand by and allow the children to act in such barbaric manner. I hear other people using the term Paki, Monkey, Gibbon, every day. I think to myself, have these people no shame to be saying such things in public? And it's a known fact that the English absolutely hate the French. And they aren't afraid to speak of their dislike for the French either. And vice-versa, the French dislike the British. Look at this public display of blatant racism occuring right now as a result of the incident of the 11th Sept., hundreds of racist attacks and abuse being hurled at those of middle eastern visage. Regardless of their actual beliefs, Muslims, Arabs, Indians, Bengalis, Pakistanis being ruthlessly attacked and visciously name-called. It's barbaric. The media has been quick to generalise using the term 'Muslim'- there two types of Muslim, the majority which makes up 90% are Sunni- the true Muslims, those who follow the true teachings of the peace of Islam. Then there is the ten per cent of Shi'ah Muslims, the fundamentalist Muslims, those who take glee in the innocent lives lost, the denomination of those who were most likely behind the attacks. This detail overlooked by the media has concluded in a tirade of bigoted attacks on innocent people.
Those examples of 'racist language' you gave are able to be translated in varying degrees of offensive English equivelents.
In Wales (where i was born and bred, and yes i'm proud to say i'm Welsh.) As i was saying, in Wales, racism is still the norm, even to some extent in the major cities, even in Cardiff.
This seems to me to have become a pointless arguement. Racism is still a widespread occurance, there are still communities in every society no matter how 'civilised' they consider themselves to be, 'entrenched' in racialism. We must begin to understand each other. I shall take what you've said about your disgust of being likened to a ghost in mind the next time i go to describe someone of Anglo descent, i shall seek to use an alternative- but just one person can't make a difference.
You make yourself sound like the severest victim. Who hasn't experienced racism before? Heck, i still do experience it when travelling around the UK and into Europe, so don't give me 'Chinese think racism is perfectly fine'. Going to Margate to the seaside, getting funny looks from the locals like they've never seen a foreign person before. Having 'chink chong cha wa blah blah blah' shouted from across the street by children whose parents just stand by and allow the children to act in such barbaric manner. I hear other people using the term Paki, Monkey, Gibbon, every day. I think to myself, have these people no shame to be saying such things in public? And it's a known fact that the English absolutely hate the French. And they aren't afraid to speak of their dislike for the French either. And vice-versa, the French dislike the British. Look at this public display of blatant racism occuring right now as a result of the incident of the 11th Sept., hundreds of racist attacks and abuse being hurled at those of middle eastern visage. Regardless of their actual beliefs, Muslims, Arabs, Indians, Bengalis, Pakistanis being ruthlessly attacked and visciously name-called. It's barbaric. The media has been quick to generalise using the term 'Muslim'- there two types of Muslim, the majority which makes up 90% are Sunni- the true Muslims, those who follow the true teachings of the peace of Islam. Then there is the ten per cent of Shi'ah Muslims, the fundamentalist Muslims, those who take glee in the innocent lives lost, the denomination of those who were most likely behind the attacks. This detail overlooked by the media has concluded in a tirade of bigoted attacks on innocent people.
Those examples of 'racist language' you gave are able to be translated in varying degrees of offensive English equivelents.
In Wales (where i was born and bred, and yes i'm proud to say i'm Welsh.) As i was saying, in Wales, racism is still the norm, even to some extent in the major cities, even in Cardiff.
This seems to me to have become a pointless arguement. Racism is still a widespread occurance, there are still communities in every society no matter how 'civilised' they consider themselves to be, 'entrenched' in racialism. We must begin to understand each other. I shall take what you've said about your disgust of being likened to a ghost in mind the next time i go to describe someone of Anglo descent, i shall seek to use an alternative- but just one person can't make a difference.
-
Stephen
Re: My Experience (Part 2)
There is a difference between racism and politcal correctness. You are not going to say that someone is sexist just be he/she uses the terms fireman, policeman, steward/stewardess. Although I do not use the term "gwai lou" to call Caucasians, I do not believe that the use of the term "gwai lou" necessarily imply disrespect or racism. If Chinese use the word "sai yun" (western people), which is my preference, to call Caucasians, the fellows from the US, Canada or Australia may felt insulted because their countries are not to the "west" of China.
My point is that it all depends on what really is in the mind of the individual who uses the word "gwai lou" or the likes. How certain are you that the choice of words like "Brits" or "Aussies" or even "Yankees" are not going to offend someone? It's not possible to "cleanse" the vocabulary of each individual to be politically correct. And even if no one in the world uses those words anymore, does it mean that racism no longer exists?
My point is that it all depends on what really is in the mind of the individual who uses the word "gwai lou" or the likes. How certain are you that the choice of words like "Brits" or "Aussies" or even "Yankees" are not going to offend someone? It's not possible to "cleanse" the vocabulary of each individual to be politically correct. And even if no one in the world uses those words anymore, does it mean that racism no longer exists?
-
Anon
Re: My Experience (Part 2)
Applause to you sir! That has been the basic message i've been trying to put forth in my numerous posts on this subject line. And you're the first non-Chinese to look at this situation objectively, and with reason.
But try convincing the PC-advocates of this discussion. Not one to usually drop names, but namely, Nollie, and good 'ol RadioBoy.
Tara now.
But try convincing the PC-advocates of this discussion. Not one to usually drop names, but namely, Nollie, and good 'ol RadioBoy.
Tara now.
-
nollie
Re: My Experience (Part 2)
: There is a difference between racism and politcal correctness. You are not going to say that someone is sexist just be he/she uses the terms fireman, policeman, steward/stewardess.
-Use of the word guai is racist as it implies that all other races as something sub-human. This word has always been a word of discrimination against foreigners. And while I don't believe one to be sexist if they use the words you mentioned, I would argue that they do still maintain stereotypes in their minds even if they do not ascribe to them.
Although I do not use the term "gwai lou" to call Caucasians, I do not believe that the use of the term "gwai lou" necessarily imply disrespect or racism. If Chinese use the word "sai yun" (western people), which is my preference, to call Caucasians, the fellows from the US, Canada or Australia may felt insulted because their countries are not to the "west" of China.
- Its not offensive as you are simply refering to their ethnic origin rather than their nationality. If you want to refer to their nationality than you are free to do that too.
My point is that it all depends on what really is in the mind of the individual who uses the word "gwai lou" or the likes. How certain are you that the choice of words like "Brits" or "Aussies" or even "Yankees" are not going to offend someone?
-Brits and Aussies are not offensive they are simply contractions of country names and a far cry from being called something dead and demonic. Yankee may be offensive to US citizens from the South, although it is not offensive and historically never has been to call someone from the north. This is once again not comparable. These shorter forms are just informal.
It's not possible to "cleanse" the vocabulary of each individual to be politically correct.
- Well as long as you're admitted it is dirty I think my case is won
And even if no one in the world uses those words anymore, does it mean that racism no longer exists?
-Of course not, but once people stop being able to label people as this or that, stereotyping becomes much more difficult and surely this means that racism will atleast decrease.
-Use of the word guai is racist as it implies that all other races as something sub-human. This word has always been a word of discrimination against foreigners. And while I don't believe one to be sexist if they use the words you mentioned, I would argue that they do still maintain stereotypes in their minds even if they do not ascribe to them.
Although I do not use the term "gwai lou" to call Caucasians, I do not believe that the use of the term "gwai lou" necessarily imply disrespect or racism. If Chinese use the word "sai yun" (western people), which is my preference, to call Caucasians, the fellows from the US, Canada or Australia may felt insulted because their countries are not to the "west" of China.
- Its not offensive as you are simply refering to their ethnic origin rather than their nationality. If you want to refer to their nationality than you are free to do that too.
My point is that it all depends on what really is in the mind of the individual who uses the word "gwai lou" or the likes. How certain are you that the choice of words like "Brits" or "Aussies" or even "Yankees" are not going to offend someone?
-Brits and Aussies are not offensive they are simply contractions of country names and a far cry from being called something dead and demonic. Yankee may be offensive to US citizens from the South, although it is not offensive and historically never has been to call someone from the north. This is once again not comparable. These shorter forms are just informal.
It's not possible to "cleanse" the vocabulary of each individual to be politically correct.
- Well as long as you're admitted it is dirty I think my case is won
And even if no one in the world uses those words anymore, does it mean that racism no longer exists?
-Of course not, but once people stop being able to label people as this or that, stereotyping becomes much more difficult and surely this means that racism will atleast decrease.
-
Anon
Re: My Experience (Part 2)
There was no case to be won. My, this discussion was not in competition, but in the hope to learn and understand - it is clear you have none.
-
radioboy
Re: My Experience (Part 2)
Nollie once again displays intelligent insight and intellectual understanding of this issue.
Anon, I want to make an important point. If we all had your point of view, we would still call blacks "Niggers", Asians "Slopes" or "Chinks" ect. After all, these terms are only words, according to you. But if they are offensive to some groups, we have to respect that. After all, they are a variety of non-negative words we can use to describe ethnic origin
I always praise people who use the word "Sai Yan" when talking to me. I am of Western origin, no matter if i live in Australia, Hong Kong or wherever and the "Sai Yan" is respectful. The truth is, the word "gwailou" is often reduced to "gwai" in daily speech and to be referred to as a "ghost" dehumanises me. i am a human, not a ghost. Dont I have a basic right to be respected as a person, not something that died? Chinese know "gwai" has negative connotations, else they wouldnt use "sai yan" or "ngoi gwok yan" when talking to me. I cant tell you how many customers and clients have been embarrassed when I reply to their comments "Why is there a ghost here?" thinking i dont understand. They no longer use "gwai" when there is a westerner around who actually understands.
Words such as fireman, policeman ect. while may be slightly sexist, and i can understand who some females may dislike it, dont hold strong negative connotations. I would much rather be referred to as a member of the opposite sex than something that died and scares people. See the difference?
If the word "gwai" is so innocent and non-offensive as you claim, why dont you use it? you yourself said you use "sai yan". You are like those people who start sentences: " I am not racsit, BUT....."
: There was no case to be won. My, this discussion was not in competition, but in the hope to learn and understand - it is clear you have none.
Anon, I want to make an important point. If we all had your point of view, we would still call blacks "Niggers", Asians "Slopes" or "Chinks" ect. After all, these terms are only words, according to you. But if they are offensive to some groups, we have to respect that. After all, they are a variety of non-negative words we can use to describe ethnic origin
I always praise people who use the word "Sai Yan" when talking to me. I am of Western origin, no matter if i live in Australia, Hong Kong or wherever and the "Sai Yan" is respectful. The truth is, the word "gwailou" is often reduced to "gwai" in daily speech and to be referred to as a "ghost" dehumanises me. i am a human, not a ghost. Dont I have a basic right to be respected as a person, not something that died? Chinese know "gwai" has negative connotations, else they wouldnt use "sai yan" or "ngoi gwok yan" when talking to me. I cant tell you how many customers and clients have been embarrassed when I reply to their comments "Why is there a ghost here?" thinking i dont understand. They no longer use "gwai" when there is a westerner around who actually understands.
Words such as fireman, policeman ect. while may be slightly sexist, and i can understand who some females may dislike it, dont hold strong negative connotations. I would much rather be referred to as a member of the opposite sex than something that died and scares people. See the difference?
If the word "gwai" is so innocent and non-offensive as you claim, why dont you use it? you yourself said you use "sai yan". You are like those people who start sentences: " I am not racsit, BUT....."
: There was no case to be won. My, this discussion was not in competition, but in the hope to learn and understand - it is clear you have none.
-
Anon
Re: My Experience (Part 2) - Experience of a Language Fascis
Well, must those who have been bestowed with praise from thee be honoured much! And heck, is a kowtow too much to ask for?!
You apply the word ‘racism’ here too generally. Is your being described ‘gweilo’ said with harsh tone, with contemptuous voice, with hate? No. Does your being called ‘gweilo’ compromise your chances of being promoted, getting a salary increase? No. Does your being called ‘gweilo’ mean you have not the rights as other citizens of Hongkong? I don’t think so.
When you’re spoken to differently, treated differently, not given the same rights as others, fear for your safety; know you’re being short-changed because of your skin tone, that’s racism. What but a word is being applied to you? Nothing. Being called ‘gweilo’ /with no racist intent/ compared with racism I have experienced, is pittance! Notice how I also say ‘experienced’ unlike you, where one gets the impression of ‘suffered’. The term ‘gweilo’ is not as racialist as it is POLITICALLY INCORRECT. Which, may I remind you, is a (American) Western invention, and thus one shouldn’t be surprised to find the Far East yet free from its tyranny – although with the likes of you and Nollie, I think the Far East will fast become infected with the desease.
Try distinguishing real racism from, what I can only say is, pure arrogance.
What do you mean, 'if we all had your point of view', how very audacious!
"... we would still call blacks 'Niggers'..."
I'd like to say in the above quote such emphasis is placed on the word 'Blacks' (which should be spelt with an upper case 'b' due to its reference to race, such without would be deemed offensive - one would have expected you to know that, how PC and indiscriminate thou be and all) it is voiced with such contempt! Hypocrite.
Bite me! I’ve had enough, I tire of this.
I notice you’ve not replied to my previous reply to your posting of the topic-string below. I’ve taken the liberty of copying and pasting it here, as I would like to hear your response.
================================================
How hypocritical of you!
"the ignorant who cant give a damn about other peoples feelings."
Where was your consideration when you declared that Cantonese was a foul language, composed of nowt but expletives and racist language? None did you show consideration, hypocrite thee so eager are you to offer criticism.
How on earth you managed to divulge from my previous posts that i had only Chinese friends Lord knows. I have you know the majority of my friends are of varying ethnic backgrounds, in fact pale is the shade of Chinese friends that i have in comparison to that of other ethnicities. London, the city in which i now live, is one of the most, if not the most, multicultural cities of the world, and thank the Lord that we Londoners don't concern ourselves and worry our little arses off to be PC. Why do i even justify myself to likes of thee?
_Political Correctness: the socio-paranoiac desease bordering on polemical overkill_ I once heard one say, and how painfully true. You are infected.
"PC is the enemy of the ignorant" I hear you say? I say rather, political correctness just adds to ignorance. Ignorant are those who feel they must conform to what is considered politically correct.
Political correctness is repugnant and offensive at its very core. Many neo-liberal bed-wetters contend that political correctness is a logical method of "common courtesy". Dog's Bullocks! Political correctness is an illogical method of COMMON STUPIDITY. PC is not just a harmless political dogma. On the contrary it is very dangerous, we must all realise the consequences and detrimental effects of politically correct stereotypes, rhetoric, and mindsets.
You apply the word ‘racism’ here too generally. Is your being described ‘gweilo’ said with harsh tone, with contemptuous voice, with hate? No. Does your being called ‘gweilo’ compromise your chances of being promoted, getting a salary increase? No. Does your being called ‘gweilo’ mean you have not the rights as other citizens of Hongkong? I don’t think so.
When you’re spoken to differently, treated differently, not given the same rights as others, fear for your safety; know you’re being short-changed because of your skin tone, that’s racism. What but a word is being applied to you? Nothing. Being called ‘gweilo’ /with no racist intent/ compared with racism I have experienced, is pittance! Notice how I also say ‘experienced’ unlike you, where one gets the impression of ‘suffered’. The term ‘gweilo’ is not as racialist as it is POLITICALLY INCORRECT. Which, may I remind you, is a (American) Western invention, and thus one shouldn’t be surprised to find the Far East yet free from its tyranny – although with the likes of you and Nollie, I think the Far East will fast become infected with the desease.
Try distinguishing real racism from, what I can only say is, pure arrogance.
What do you mean, 'if we all had your point of view', how very audacious!
"... we would still call blacks 'Niggers'..."
I'd like to say in the above quote such emphasis is placed on the word 'Blacks' (which should be spelt with an upper case 'b' due to its reference to race, such without would be deemed offensive - one would have expected you to know that, how PC and indiscriminate thou be and all) it is voiced with such contempt! Hypocrite.
Bite me! I’ve had enough, I tire of this.
I notice you’ve not replied to my previous reply to your posting of the topic-string below. I’ve taken the liberty of copying and pasting it here, as I would like to hear your response.
================================================
How hypocritical of you!
"the ignorant who cant give a damn about other peoples feelings."
Where was your consideration when you declared that Cantonese was a foul language, composed of nowt but expletives and racist language? None did you show consideration, hypocrite thee so eager are you to offer criticism.
How on earth you managed to divulge from my previous posts that i had only Chinese friends Lord knows. I have you know the majority of my friends are of varying ethnic backgrounds, in fact pale is the shade of Chinese friends that i have in comparison to that of other ethnicities. London, the city in which i now live, is one of the most, if not the most, multicultural cities of the world, and thank the Lord that we Londoners don't concern ourselves and worry our little arses off to be PC. Why do i even justify myself to likes of thee?
_Political Correctness: the socio-paranoiac desease bordering on polemical overkill_ I once heard one say, and how painfully true. You are infected.
"PC is the enemy of the ignorant" I hear you say? I say rather, political correctness just adds to ignorance. Ignorant are those who feel they must conform to what is considered politically correct.
Political correctness is repugnant and offensive at its very core. Many neo-liberal bed-wetters contend that political correctness is a logical method of "common courtesy". Dog's Bullocks! Political correctness is an illogical method of COMMON STUPIDITY. PC is not just a harmless political dogma. On the contrary it is very dangerous, we must all realise the consequences and detrimental effects of politically correct stereotypes, rhetoric, and mindsets.
-
Anon
An ammendment to my above post
Where it reads:
Try distinguishing real racism from, what I can only say is, pure arrogance.
Should read:
Try distinguishing real racism from, what I can only say is, pure arrogance; arrogance on your behalf. Racism isn't what you're suffering from here, what you're suffering from here is arrogance. Get over it.
Try distinguishing real racism from, what I can only say is, pure arrogance.
Should read:
Try distinguishing real racism from, what I can only say is, pure arrogance; arrogance on your behalf. Racism isn't what you're suffering from here, what you're suffering from here is arrogance. Get over it.
-
cain
Re: An ammendment to my above post
Well I agree that these "Westerners" as they are now prefering to be called, are arrogant with a capital 'A'!.
Any idiot would know if you are refering to a race of people you would capitalize the word. I am always choked when "Westerners" refer to Blacks as their blacks or something that they owned or "... we would still be calling blacks nigger, ect..." We? Are we as the entire world supposed to believe that the USA belongs to Whites... oops... 'Westerners'? And if The "Westerners" have accepted the Blacks as equal citizens ,they wouldn't refer to them as 'them' as if.. 'not us'.
As far as I know there is only one race, and that is the Human race. If you still have a problem with that notion, then you are a racist.
When you say "we" please specify "Whites". As long as I have been on this earth, Whites are the only ones to have used and created the word nigger to refer to "BLACKS". Don't respond and try to say every race has a racist word to use against Black people. Nigger is the only one I have heard used in this country. If there is another one used by other nationalities, at least they have the good grace to keep it to themselves.
As far as Chinese people being racist, it is utterly ridiculous. I think the word racist is being used too lightly. For a "Westerner" who has never experienced racisim, except that of which he/she has created, being called a word you don't like will not alter or change your life. It does not apply! You have not experienced racism, and most likely never will.
I know, I know, everone wants to jump on the racism band-wagon. Everyone wants to be represented. No-one wants to be the bad guy. Every one wants their TV show. Thats alright, but being called a word that you don't like, does not equate 300 years of bondage and experiencing the effects of it continually!
Racisim is a terrible invention, and anyone who can sling around that the Chinese are racists too are not interested in ending what the real problem is.
Noticibly Asians do have their predjudices, but our Asian brothers and sisters should not take seriously the threats that they too are racist, my God! Look at that word! It is just a sorry attemt to deflect blame onto a group of people that Americans sadly do not understand. The "Westerners" are hungry to dump their guilt on anyone who is sensitive enough to listen.
But an apology to our African American brothers and sisters is out of the question. It might allievieate some guilt, but.... we all know they didn't have anything to do with it. (slavery that is) (they just benefited from it.)
Any idiot would know if you are refering to a race of people you would capitalize the word. I am always choked when "Westerners" refer to Blacks as their blacks or something that they owned or "... we would still be calling blacks nigger, ect..." We? Are we as the entire world supposed to believe that the USA belongs to Whites... oops... 'Westerners'? And if The "Westerners" have accepted the Blacks as equal citizens ,they wouldn't refer to them as 'them' as if.. 'not us'.
As far as I know there is only one race, and that is the Human race. If you still have a problem with that notion, then you are a racist.
When you say "we" please specify "Whites". As long as I have been on this earth, Whites are the only ones to have used and created the word nigger to refer to "BLACKS". Don't respond and try to say every race has a racist word to use against Black people. Nigger is the only one I have heard used in this country. If there is another one used by other nationalities, at least they have the good grace to keep it to themselves.
As far as Chinese people being racist, it is utterly ridiculous. I think the word racist is being used too lightly. For a "Westerner" who has never experienced racisim, except that of which he/she has created, being called a word you don't like will not alter or change your life. It does not apply! You have not experienced racism, and most likely never will.
I know, I know, everone wants to jump on the racism band-wagon. Everyone wants to be represented. No-one wants to be the bad guy. Every one wants their TV show. Thats alright, but being called a word that you don't like, does not equate 300 years of bondage and experiencing the effects of it continually!
Racisim is a terrible invention, and anyone who can sling around that the Chinese are racists too are not interested in ending what the real problem is.
Noticibly Asians do have their predjudices, but our Asian brothers and sisters should not take seriously the threats that they too are racist, my God! Look at that word! It is just a sorry attemt to deflect blame onto a group of people that Americans sadly do not understand. The "Westerners" are hungry to dump their guilt on anyone who is sensitive enough to listen.
But an apology to our African American brothers and sisters is out of the question. It might allievieate some guilt, but.... we all know they didn't have anything to do with it. (slavery that is) (they just benefited from it.)