What is the right pronounciation for Doh1 Je6 ( Thank you)

[Tom]

Hi,
for the word Doh1 Je6 I have heard 2 different
pronunciations for the second part Je6.
Sometimes you can hear the "J" pronounced
with a "sch/ sh" sound like in the English "she" or
" sheriff" .
So JE6 sounds like " Tsche /Dsche"
Other people say for the "J" a sound like
"ts / ds " .
So JE6 sounds like " Tse / Dse ".
what is right and why is this difference ?
I heard that the "dsch" sound is more used by women ???
Thanks !

[sammy]

: Hi,
: for the word Doh1 Je6 I have heard 2 different
: pronunciations for the second part Je6.
: Sometimes you can hear the "J" pronounced
: with a "sch/ sh" sound like in the English "she" or
: " sheriff" .
: So JE6 sounds like " Tsche /Dsche"
: Other people say for the "J" a sound like
: "ts / ds " .
: So JE6 sounds like " Tse / Dse ".
: what is right and why is this difference ?
: I heard that the "dsch" sound is more used by women ???
: Thanks !

[Pui Wai Hin]

I think they're confusing it with Mandarin. The Mandarin for thank you is xie xie. Sometimes you might hear duo xie, and it's not uncommon to see it written. But in Cantonese it is pretty much always do jeh.
www.chinawestexchange.com/sounds/cl1/dojeh.mp3

[Thomas Chan]

: for the word Doh1 Je6 I have heard 2 different
: pronunciations for the second part Je6.
: Sometimes you can hear the "J" pronounced
: with a "sch/ sh" sound like in the English "she" or
: " sheriff" .
: So JE6 sounds like " Tsche /Dsche"
: Other people say for the "J" a sound like
: "ts / ds " .
: So JE6 sounds like " Tse / Dse ".
: what is right and why is this difference ?
: I heard that the "dsch" sound is more used by women ???
"tsche" and "dsche" seem like German spelling to
me--am I right? If so, then the second
syllable of doje 'thank you (for a gift)'
in Cantonese can be what sounds like to you
"tsche/dsche" or "tse/dse"--both are possible
pronunciations by Cantonese speakers and no
distinction is made. (I personally use the
"tsche/dsche" form.)
However, the second syllable of 'thank you'
iss never pronounced like the "sh"
of English "she" or "sheriff" (I believe
that would sound like "schi" or "sche-" in
German).

Thomas Chan
tc31@cornell.edu

[Tom]

Thanks Tom,
you helped me a lot.
You were right "sch" is the German writing
for this sound .
( do you also speak German ????)
Actually I think that romanization forms
of Cantonese is for German speakers sometimes
easier than for English speakers.
This is , because German is more logical, when
there is a letter, you pronounce it like it is written.
Not so in English, you have different sounds for a letter , like "hat " or "hate" , both have an "a", but it is pronounced differently.
As a German speaker , you would pronounce
the Cantonese Yat1 ( =One) , really like the
Cantonese pronounciation, but as an English speaker , you would say first something like
the sound in "hat" or "have" for the "a " sound.
It would be easier for him, when it would be written Yut1 !

Because of this, for English speakers , there
was produced a small book, called "Instant Cantonese", where the words are writting. as if it would be English:
hello = way
when = gay see
9 =gow .......
you can get from amazom.com for a few $$.
so I can say it both ways, fine.
like in HELLO wai2 or wei2 , right ?
( see my newer question)
I always thought that the JE would be only tse,
but then I got a Therea Teng CD, live in HK,
and she always said the dsche sound in Doh Je
inbetween the songs.
First I thought this might be wrong, maybe because
Theresa was not a native Cantonese speaker,but then I learned, that more people used it.
Thanks !

[Thomas Chan]

: You were right "sch" is the German writing
: for this sound .
: ( do you also speak German ????)
No, I don't know any German. I used a table
that gave values in IPA for the letters used in
German orthography: "Table 59.4: Values of
Letters in Standard Germanic Languages" (644-645)
from Wayne M. Senner's "Germanic Languages", in
Peter T. Daniels and William Bright, eds.,
_The World's Writing Systems_ (New York: Oxford
University Press, 1996), 642-651. The table
also gave Dutch, Icelandic, and Bokmal Norwegian.

: Actually I think that romanization forms
: of Cantonese is for German speakers sometimes
: easier than for English speakers.
Are there such systems? I've only seen
Cantonese romanization systems created for or
by English and French speakers. I do have
an 1870s dictionary (in English, but written by
a German person--I think he was a missionary or
a nobleman), but I haven't looked yet to see
what system he uses because the pages are so
fragile (and they haven't been cut apart yet!).

: This is , because German is more logical, when
: there is a letter, you pronounce it like it is written.
: Not so in English, you have different sounds for a letter , like "hat " or "hate" , both have an "a", but it is pronounced differently.
Yes, I agree that English orthography is not
well suited for transcribing foreign words
without reference to a pre-agreed system,
e.g., the one adopted (I forget the name
of the organization) which used English
consonants and Italian vowels.

: As a German speaker , you would pronounce
: the Cantonese Yat1 ( =One) , really like the
: Cantonese pronounciation, but as an English speaker , you would say first something like
: the sound in "hat" or "have" for the "a " sound.
: It would be easier for him, when it would be written Yut1 !
On the other hand, there will be some English
speakers who'll misinterpret "yut" and pronounce
it something like Ger. "jut"--i.e., with .
I don't think there's any easy way to transcribe
for English speakers without some explanation.
Its even worse for American English speakers,
because they don't even have passing
familiarity with a system like IPA from
dictionaries--every American dictionary has
their own idiosyncratic pronunciation key. I
understand that in the UK and continental
Europe, IPA is used in dictionaries.

: Because of this, for English speakers , there
: was produced a small book, called "Instant Cantonese", where the words are writting. as if it would be English:
: hello = way
: when = gay see
: 9 =gow .......
: you can get from amazom.com for a few $$.
: so I can say it both ways, fine.
: like in HELLO wai2 or wei2 , right ?
: ( see my newer question)
I would say wai2 (Ger. "uay" or "uei"), but I
wouldn't find wei2 (Ger. "uee") unacceptable
either. Have you heard of lei4 'to come'
used instead of lai4 'to come'? I believe
that's the same variation.
But I wouldn't advise normally mixing up -ai
and -ei, since these are otherwise
distinguished. For example, gai1 'chicken'
and gei1 'machine'.

: I always thought that the JE would be only tse,
: but then I got a Therea Teng CD, live in HK,
: and she always said the dsche sound in Doh Je
: inbetween the songs.
: First I thought this might be wrong, maybe because
: Theresa was not a native Cantonese speaker,but then I learned, that more people used it.
You're right here--she's not a native speaker,
but from Taiwan.

Thomas Chan
tc31@cornell.edu

[Terence Lee]

There are different types of phonetic tables using in marking sounds of Cantonese, the most popular one is that defined by Mr. Wong Sik Lang with which I use to indicate the following sound:
Thank = 多謝 and 毋該in Cantonese(1)
= 謝 and 謝謝 in Mandarin (2)
Usage : (1) gift from others, 多謝 (do1 ze6)
help/service from others, 毋該 (m4 goi1)
(2) gift/help/service from others, 謝謝
(xie4‧xie)
where z similar to dz and x = s in International phonetic symbols; ‧xie represents half tone, ie, short and weak
Please also note the followings:
1. Colloquially speaking : some Hongkongese like to imitate Mainlanders to say
“thank” in form of 謝謝 z6z6, though wrong but they are understood.
2. Any ch, tsh, dsh, je and sch replacing z is incorrect.
3. When asking somebody to do something, i.e. would you please … ,
The Cantonese will say 毋該你 (m4 goi1 nei5) …. while the Mandarin speakers will say請你，麻煩你，勞你駕 (qing3 ni3, ma2 fan2 ni3, lao2 ni3 jia4) where 你 = you
4. Cantonese sound table (jyt ping) is different from Mandarin (Pin Yin), hope you can distinguish them.

[Tom]

Hi Thomas,
thanks for your answer.
( you helped already quite a time ago with the
Cantonese Bruce Lee movie titles!)
I didn´t know the 2 words for COME
what do you use lei or lai ?
can I ask you 2 more questions ?
- I have a good Cantonese book (with audiotapes)
called LET´s talk Cantonese.
there are 2 speakers on the tapes.
the woman pronounce everything perfect, the man
always uses for you = Lei5 instead of nei5.
But he uses nearly for every word, that starts
with a N, an L.
For example :
Lidi1 for Nidi1
Ligo for Nigo .....
is that right or did I understand him wrong ?
can I use the L for every N in the beginning of a word ( I think for 5 , he uses the N, ng5)
he also uses for I = ngo5, only o5.
how do you do it ?
do you also say only o5 ?
does this sound unsofficated and slang like?

in all books I have learned that at the end of a question most of the times there is for example
an "a" .
but in this book, this is NEVER used , like :
Nidi haih matyeh ?
Nei yiu matyeh ?
Nei haih binwai ? ......
is this also correct, maybe more colloquial ?
Thanks in advance !
PS.:
I guess from your last name you are Chinese.
where do you live ?
( is there a difference in HK Cantonese and Cantonese spoken in the UK or USA ?)

[Thomas Chan]

: I didn't know the 2 words for COME
: what do you use lei or lai ?
I use lai4, but I've heard (and understand) lei4.
Impressionistically, I associate the lei4
pronunciation with young female speakers, but I
don't know if a statistical survey would support
that.

: can I ask you 2 more questions ?
: - I have a good Cantonese book (with audiotapes)
: called LET's talk Cantonese.
: there are 2 speakers on the tapes.
: the woman pronounce everything perfect, the man
: always uses for you = Lei5 instead of nei5.
: But he uses nearly for every word, that starts
: with a N, an L.
: For example :
: Lidi1 for Nidi1
: Ligo for Nigo .....
: is that right or did I understand him wrong ?
You heard the man right. There is an on-going
sound change that turns [n-] to [l-] that has
been happening for decades. While 'you' is
more properly nei5 (and some people will insist
that is the only correct form), there are people,
(said to be the "younger generation"), who
say lei5. Thus, some textbooks nowadays reflect
this change by giving 'you' as lei5.
Personally, there are some words that I leave
[n-] alone and others that I change to [l-]. I'd
recommend being aware of the [n-] forms (which
would be useful if you ever study Mandarin, as
that isn't undergoing this change). One thing
to be careful about is hypercorrection--i.e.,
not every [l-] word you hear is really [n-]
in origin, such as lou5 'old'.

: can I use the L for every N in the beginning of a word ( I think for 5 , he uses the N, ng5)
: he also uses for I = ngo5, only o5.
: how do you do it ?
: do you also say only o5 ?
: does this sound unsofficated and slang like?
This is a different case. The <n> in <ng> is
something else. There is another sound change
in-progress here too, where "ng" (velar nasal)
is deleted, e.g., ngo5 -> o5. In the last
decade or two, this has progressed to the point
where people delete "ng" (ngo5 -> o5) or add
it ('duck' aap3 -> ngaap3). I've seen textbooks
list 'duck' as ngaap3, reflecting the changing
pronunciation. Again, some people may
insist that ngo5 is the only correct form.
Personally, I retain a distinction between "ng-"
and the zero initial, but I think this is a
1970s remnant and does not reflect Hong Kong
speech today.
If we combine these two in-progress changes
(and hypercorrections), there's theoretically
eight ways to say 'I love you':
1) ngo5 oi3 nei5 (original)
2) ngo5 oi3 lei5 (n -> l for 'you')
3) o5 oi3 nei5 (ng -> zero for 'I')
4) o5 oi3 lei5 (#2 and #3 combined)
5) ngo5 ngoi3 nei5 ('love' hypercorrected)
6) ngo5 ngoi3 lei5 (#5 and #2 combined)
7) ngo5 ngoi3 nei5 (#5 and #3 combined)
o5 ngoi3 lei5 (#2, #3, and #5 combined)

BTW, for 'five', some people say m5 instead of ng5.
(This is a third change.) The two surnames commonly
romanized as <Ng> or <Eng> are often pronounced as
"m". (If you think this change is odd, compare the
two English words "damn" and "dang".)

: in all books I have learned that at the end of a question most of the times there is for example
: an "a" .
: but in this book, this is NEVER used , like :
: Nidi haih matyeh ?
: Nei yiu matyeh ?
: Nei haih binwai ? ......
: is this also correct, maybe more colloquial ?
It seems like they are simplifying it. The
particle a3 is not mandatory, but it sounds
better with it for questions.

: PS.:
: I guess from your last name you are Chinese.
: where do you live ?
: ( is there a difference in HK Cantonese and Cantonese spoken in the UK or USA ?)
Yes, I'm Chinese and I'm in the US. I don't
think there is much significant difference between
HK and disaspora varieties of Cantonese, except
those stemming from a different dialect base
(e.g., Zhongshan in Hawaii; Taishan in older
generation mainland US speakers) and/or when
immigration to the US took place. Some things
may be frozen such as more conservative
pronunciation and lack of new HK colloquialisms,
but it is not as if US Cantonese speakers are
completely separated, as people here still have
and maintain access to HK newspapers, magazines,
videos, etc.

Thomas Chan
tc31@cornell.edu

[Tom]

Thanks Thomas for your detailed answer !
I was just curious, if Cantonese would have
changed a little bit in the USA, like
English has changed over the the last centuries,
due to the different language influences of other immigrants ( Italian, German, French, Swedish ...).

Regards
Tom