Distribution of the Min variants across South East Asia

Mark Yong · Post by **Mark Yong** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:58 am

Hi, all,

A break from my benzi madness...

There have been quite a number of forum threads here that have touched on the different pronunciation of Hokkien words, depending on the localities. So, I was just wondering: What exactly is the distribution of the different Min (閩) dialects across South-East Asia?

I mean, from what I know, the Penang Hokkien (actually, this covers a much larger group, as far north as Perlis to as far south as Taiping) is largely based on the Chiang Chew (漳州) variety, whereas further down south to Singapore and Johor, it is more based on Chuan Chew (泉州). Some exposure to the Hokkien spoken in Kelantan suggests Chiang Chew lineage (the pronunciations appear to mirror the Penang verity, but I am not 100% certain).

Over to East Malaysia, it's more Minbei (閩北) than Minnan (閩南), where Hockchew (福州) is spoken (hence, I said Min dialects, not just Minnan dialects).

What about Indonesia, Philippines and elsewhere in South East Asia... or even abroad? And is the Amoy (廈門) variant dominant anywhere in South East Asia?

This question was really prompted by a thought in my mind, whether, theoretically, there could have emerged a 'regional' standard for Minnan in South East Asia... but I guess that's way too far-fetched!

Cheers,
Mark

ong · Post by **ong** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:42 am

I think we should rather say North malaysian speak Xiamen minnan than ciangciu minnan.
Example want=爱 is used more than ciangciu beh.There is one 2003 book mention this
百 is pah like cuanciu and xiamen.ciangciu is peh
uinn is also used a lot in xiamen 150 years besides ng
south malaysian used xiamen ing for 前，先 instead of uinn.Remember their ir,er are also used a lot in xiamen 150 years ago .
Filipina,Burmese ,Indonesia all have cuanciu people more than ciangciu .Indonesia use ciangciu tone a lot but certainly not burmese and 晋江 people in Filipina

You should use mindong for fuzhou.There are only a few minbei people in malaysian.
There are many cuanciu people in Kuching,east malaysia.I have books from china like 泉州市志 mention this.

Mark Yong · Post by **Mark Yong** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:54 am

Hi, Hong,

Thanks for the insights. Is the variant used in the Hokkien news on Malaysia's FM106.7 radio station considered as standard Amoy?

Regards,
Mark

ong · Post by **ong** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:01 am

There use old xiamen style with o didn't become er.
越南 is uat not guat as mentioned by one of them

niuc · Post by **niuc** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:38 am

I am not sure about the exact composition of Cuanciu, Ciangciu and E-mng Hokkien in Indonesia as there is no census done. From my experience: Hokkien in the northern part of Sumatra is very similar to those in the northern part of Malaysia, and in the eastern part of Sumatra is very similar to the southern part of Malaysia and Singapore, as they are parallel geographically. In the southern part of Sumatra, some speak Hokkien that is more purely Ciangciu and some similar to Cuanciu.

In Java, not many Chinese people can speak Hokkien [or any Chinese], but those I encountered mostly sound like E-mng variant. From the spelling of Indonesian loanwords from Hokkien, it seems that Ciangciu variant was more dominant; e.g. traditional Chinese physicians 先生 are called "sinse", 薄餅 po8-pia*2 is "lumpia", 仙草 sian1-chau2 is "cincau", 糕/粿 cake is "kue", etc.

Teochew/Teochiu 潮州話 is also widely used in some of the eastern part of Sumatra, Riau islands and some parts of West Kalimantan. Other Min languages are less heard. My friend who is a Hokchia 福清人 [Indonesian tycoons Sudono Salim 林紹良 and Eka Cipta - the father of Singapore based Oei Hong Leong 黃豐隆 - are Hokchias, Mindong] told me that in Jakarta Hokchia people usually used Hokkien/Minnan instead of Mindong, even in the Hokchia association.

ong · Post by **ong** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:31 am

I can email a book called 东南亚华人语言研究 6M which has an article by 高然 on sumantra minnan.The book is just 13 RMB.
They also say hami but some words are their own invention.
They are famous ciangciu people in malaysian like former MCA leader 陈贞禄Tan Cheng Lock is 南靖 (There are a few sects in this city) I don't think he can speak 南靖 dialect with vowel like oou,etc，he could be speaking malacca baba language .

Mark Yong · Post by **Mark Yong** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:21 am

ong wrote:There use old xiamen style with o didn't become er.
越南 is uat not guat as mentioned by one of them

Speaking of the dropping of g- prefix, Penang Hokkien is also sometimes inconsistent with this. 研究 is sometimes pronounced 'gian-kiu', sometimes 'ian-kiu'. I retain the g-, since 議員 is pronounced 'gee-guan' in Penang, not 'ee-uan'. Strictly speaking, which is correct: g- or no g-? (in 漳州話).

ong · Post by **ong** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:04 pm

all the same ,it is only uan 员

niuc · Post by **niuc** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:32 pm

Initial 'y-' in Mandarin can be 'g' or 'i' in Hokkien, 'yu-' can be 'gu-' or 'u-'. 月 and 越 are both yue4 in Mandarin, but in Hokkien the former is guat8 (col. ger8/ge8/gue8) and the latter is uat8. 研, 延, 鹽 all are yan2 in Mandarin, but respectively gian2, ian5 and iam5 in Hokkien.

員 can be uan5 or guan5. In our dialect 議員 is also gi7-guan5, 教員 is kau3-guan5. Douglas' has guan5 as colloquial and uan5 as literary. Douglas' usage is the same as mine. However, Barclay's has 教員 as kau3-uan5.

ong · Post by **ong** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:25 am

guan is not baidu but 同化 like hui hiam (gui become h). 员 is 云母 not 疑母 which will be ng and g