Just wondering if anybody has any information on tone sandhi patterns in Cantonese, or any of its dialects. I haven't come across any information but it makes me wonder if it does exist anywhere.
One instance does come to mind, and since I don't know very much Cantonese, I would like to know how you use it. There are usually two readings in the first tone. Do you find there's a difference between Hong Kong and Guangzhou speakers? Which city makes more use of both readings? Finally, my main question is, what environments causes you to pronouce it level or falling? I'm thinking about the word xian1-sheng1 (Mandarin spelling) followed by 1st tone surnames like Zhang1.
Does anybody know of any other rural dialect where tone sandhi takes place or where you pronounce a word with two different tones depending on the situation?
Thanks for any help with this.
james
Tone Sandhi
-
ichi
Re: Tone Sandhi
Actually this is a great question, because I'm wondering the same thing.
Tone sandhi definitely occurs in Mandarin. If I understand correctly, this is modification of tones in a string of tones, right?
Anyways, IIRC at least one of the cases of tone sandhi in Mandarin should be 3rd followed by 4th; in this case the 3rd tone is clipped to just the falling part. I think sometimes this occurs for 3 followed by one as well ... like lao3 shi1 (老 師).
Tone sandhi in mandarin is documented; I believe a textbook such as _Integrated Chinese_ should contain this information.
My guess is that it occurs in Cantonese, but it's not something that I've ever paid concious attention to.
I hope a linguist will come by and clean up the mess I'm making
Side note -- there are definitely words mean different things with different tones (but otherwise sound the same), and there are some words that change *sound* (not just tone) depending on context.
Tone sandhi definitely occurs in Mandarin. If I understand correctly, this is modification of tones in a string of tones, right?
Anyways, IIRC at least one of the cases of tone sandhi in Mandarin should be 3rd followed by 4th; in this case the 3rd tone is clipped to just the falling part. I think sometimes this occurs for 3 followed by one as well ... like lao3 shi1 (老 師).
Tone sandhi in mandarin is documented; I believe a textbook such as _Integrated Chinese_ should contain this information.
My guess is that it occurs in Cantonese, but it's not something that I've ever paid concious attention to.
I hope a linguist will come by and clean up the mess I'm making
Side note -- there are definitely words mean different things with different tones (but otherwise sound the same), and there are some words that change *sound* (not just tone) depending on context.
-
Mark Williamson
Re: Tone Sandhi
Generally non-Mandarin dialects have more tone sandhi than does Mandarin
And generally Mandarin tone sandhi is not nearly as confusing as that of other dialects, which usually have appterns even though those patterns are often very complex. Dylan Sung's sent me a pattern chart for Hakka tone sandhi. Unfortunately for Mandarin sandhi people who are learning the language see things like Tone so-and-so with tone so-and-so changes to tone so-and-so however often the tone is not the same as one of the original tones, or at least not exactly although generally it doesn't make a difference.
The Hakka BASE tones are:
#1. 陰平 /44/
#2. 陽平 /11/
#3. 上聲 /31/
#4. 去聲 /53/
#5. 陰入 /1/
#6. 陽入 /5/
陰平+陰平 /44/ + /44/
陰平+陽平 /35/ + /11/
陰平+上聲 /35/ + /31/
陰平+去聲 /35/ + /53/
陰平+陰入 /35/ + /1/
陰平+陽入 /44/ + /5/
去聲+陰平 /53/ + /44/
去聲+陽平 /55/ + /11/
去聲+上聲 /55/ + /31/
去聲+去聲 /55/ + /53/
去聲+陰入 /55/ + /1/
去聲+陽入 /53/ + /5/
輕聲 (qing sheng, neutral tone) is always /*3/ apparently, however:
陰平+輕聲 /35/ + /*3/
去聲+輕聲 /55/ + /*3/
So, apparently in Hakka all other combinations are read as their base tones. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but that's what I interpreted from Dylan Sung's email.
About Cantonese, I'm not quite sure.
However about some words changing sound depending on context- yes, that happens however generally from what I from what I can tell, there's no method to THAT madness (except perhaps in Fuzhou dialect where there are regular sound changes with a pattern to them)
I do know that this happens in Japanese:
かきくけこ ka ki ku ke ko - がぎぐげご ga gi gu ge go
さしすせそ sa shi su se so - ざじずぜぞ za ji zu ze zo
(nihon roomaji-- sa si su se so - za zi zu ze zo)
たちつてと ta chi tsu te to - だぢづでど da ji zu de do
(nihon roomaji-- ta ti tu te to - da di du de do)
はひふへほ ha hi hu he ho - ばびぶべぼ ba bi bu be bo OR ぱぴぷぺぽ pa pi pu pe po
SO when we have two kanji (hanzi) together, for some words we will use the Chinese pronunciation (most), and for some the Japanese pronunciation (some).
音読み (onyomi) CHINESE READING - 人間 - にんげん ningen HOWEVER separately they are read as にん nin and けん ken if you use that reading. Generally computers won't convert NINKEN to those Kanji, you have to type NINGEN because that is the way it sounds.
訓読み (kunyomi) JAPANESE READING - 守り神 - まもりがみ mamorigami, if you use these readings to read them separately you read them as まもり かみ MAMORI KAMI, when they occur together you read them as MAMORIGAMI.
More interesting to me is 人人 hitobito also written as 人々 hitobito because the Kanji is repeated, as when HITO occurs again after HITO (Japanese reading), the second HITO changes to BITO. If I am correct, the same thing occurs in ALTAIC languages, of which JAPANESE and KOREAN have been said by some to be a part of (you can see in non-Chinese vocabulary connections, generally Korean and Japanese are closest to Tungusitic of which Manchu is the largest language)
And generally Mandarin tone sandhi is not nearly as confusing as that of other dialects, which usually have appterns even though those patterns are often very complex. Dylan Sung's sent me a pattern chart for Hakka tone sandhi. Unfortunately for Mandarin sandhi people who are learning the language see things like Tone so-and-so with tone so-and-so changes to tone so-and-so however often the tone is not the same as one of the original tones, or at least not exactly although generally it doesn't make a difference.
The Hakka BASE tones are:
#1. 陰平 /44/
#2. 陽平 /11/
#3. 上聲 /31/
#4. 去聲 /53/
#5. 陰入 /1/
#6. 陽入 /5/
陰平+陰平 /44/ + /44/
陰平+陽平 /35/ + /11/
陰平+上聲 /35/ + /31/
陰平+去聲 /35/ + /53/
陰平+陰入 /35/ + /1/
陰平+陽入 /44/ + /5/
去聲+陰平 /53/ + /44/
去聲+陽平 /55/ + /11/
去聲+上聲 /55/ + /31/
去聲+去聲 /55/ + /53/
去聲+陰入 /55/ + /1/
去聲+陽入 /53/ + /5/
輕聲 (qing sheng, neutral tone) is always /*3/ apparently, however:
陰平+輕聲 /35/ + /*3/
去聲+輕聲 /55/ + /*3/
So, apparently in Hakka all other combinations are read as their base tones. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but that's what I interpreted from Dylan Sung's email.
About Cantonese, I'm not quite sure.
However about some words changing sound depending on context- yes, that happens however generally from what I from what I can tell, there's no method to THAT madness (except perhaps in Fuzhou dialect where there are regular sound changes with a pattern to them)
I do know that this happens in Japanese:
かきくけこ ka ki ku ke ko - がぎぐげご ga gi gu ge go
さしすせそ sa shi su se so - ざじずぜぞ za ji zu ze zo
(nihon roomaji-- sa si su se so - za zi zu ze zo)
たちつてと ta chi tsu te to - だぢづでど da ji zu de do
(nihon roomaji-- ta ti tu te to - da di du de do)
はひふへほ ha hi hu he ho - ばびぶべぼ ba bi bu be bo OR ぱぴぷぺぽ pa pi pu pe po
SO when we have two kanji (hanzi) together, for some words we will use the Chinese pronunciation (most), and for some the Japanese pronunciation (some).
音読み (onyomi) CHINESE READING - 人間 - にんげん ningen HOWEVER separately they are read as にん nin and けん ken if you use that reading. Generally computers won't convert NINKEN to those Kanji, you have to type NINGEN because that is the way it sounds.
訓読み (kunyomi) JAPANESE READING - 守り神 - まもりがみ mamorigami, if you use these readings to read them separately you read them as まもり かみ MAMORI KAMI, when they occur together you read them as MAMORIGAMI.
More interesting to me is 人人 hitobito also written as 人々 hitobito because the Kanji is repeated, as when HITO occurs again after HITO (Japanese reading), the second HITO changes to BITO. If I am correct, the same thing occurs in ALTAIC languages, of which JAPANESE and KOREAN have been said by some to be a part of (you can see in non-Chinese vocabulary connections, generally Korean and Japanese are closest to Tungusitic of which Manchu is the largest language)
-
Sum Won
Re: Tone Sandhi
I'm more into ethnology, and have read some stuff on the origins of the Japanese. Though they still say their origins are pretty murky and mysterious, they also make note that many Koreans came over to Japan, not necessarily as the original ancestors of the Japanese, but during Korea's times of crises. So, I'm not sure if we can really mark the Japanese langauge under the Altaic-Tungusian category.
Re: Tone Sandhi
Generally, that's where linguists put it. If I were you, I'd put some research where my mouth is.
After generally looking thru records of OLD JAPANESE (pre-Chinese contact, I forgot how they know that stuff but they do) and comparing with PROTO-TUNGUSITIC and PROTO-ALTAIC, as well as other ALTAIC PROTOFORMS, I generally find some sort of relation although sometimes it is only with the initial consonant.
I'm not sure about the IPA capabilities of everybody here, unfortunately.
WATER:
ALTAIC PROTOFORM (reconstructed):
*mi_u:ri
TURKIC PROTOFORM [no cognates for Turkic]
MONGOLIAN PROTOFORM (reconstructed):
*mo"ren
TUNGUSITIC PROTOFORM (recon.):
*mu:
KOREAN PROTOFORM (recon.):
*my/r
JAPANESE PROTOFORM (recon.):
*mi
MODERN JAPANESE COGNATE:
mi[zu]
PERSON/PEOPLES/COUNTRY:
ALTAIC PROTOFORM (recon.):
*ki_u/ne
TURKIC PROTOFORM (recon.)
*ku"n
MONGOLIAN PROTOFORM (recon.):
*ku"|u"n
TUNGUSITIC PROTOFORM (recon.):
*ku"n
KOREAN PROTOFORM (no Korean cognates)
JAPANESE PROTOFORM (recon.):
*ku/ni/ (/ni/ is regarded as a suffix here)
MODERN JAPANESE COGNATE:
ku[ni]
WORD/NAME:
ALTAIC PROTOFORM (recon.):
*ge>re(bV)
TURKIC PROTOFORM (recon.):
*ge.r-tu"
MONGOLIAN PROTOFORM (recon.):
*gere(-g|e)
TUNGUSITIC PROTOFORM (recon.):
*gerbu":
KOREAN PROTOFORM (recon.):
*ky/r OR *ky/rw@/r
JAPANESE PROTOFORM (recon.):
*k@t@ OR *k@t@-pa
MODERN JAPANESE COGNATE:
kotoba
That one's fairly confusing, however I think you should note that SLASHES as well as other marks indicate things that can/could've been used as suffixes/prefixes but eventually got added as part of the word.
Generally if you look further your evidence will prove more to you than this, however as if they are related it's a fairly distant relationship you will hardly come up with conclusive evidence. Look at similarities in phonological systems, as well as grammatical systems (generally Old Japanese fits the profile better than does Modern Japanese because Modern Japanese has loads of Chinese influence)
After generally looking thru records of OLD JAPANESE (pre-Chinese contact, I forgot how they know that stuff but they do) and comparing with PROTO-TUNGUSITIC and PROTO-ALTAIC, as well as other ALTAIC PROTOFORMS, I generally find some sort of relation although sometimes it is only with the initial consonant.
I'm not sure about the IPA capabilities of everybody here, unfortunately.
WATER:
ALTAIC PROTOFORM (reconstructed):
*mi_u:ri
TURKIC PROTOFORM [no cognates for Turkic]
MONGOLIAN PROTOFORM (reconstructed):
*mo"ren
TUNGUSITIC PROTOFORM (recon.):
*mu:
KOREAN PROTOFORM (recon.):
*my/r
JAPANESE PROTOFORM (recon.):
*mi
MODERN JAPANESE COGNATE:
mi[zu]
PERSON/PEOPLES/COUNTRY:
ALTAIC PROTOFORM (recon.):
*ki_u/ne
TURKIC PROTOFORM (recon.)
*ku"n
MONGOLIAN PROTOFORM (recon.):
*ku"|u"n
TUNGUSITIC PROTOFORM (recon.):
*ku"n
KOREAN PROTOFORM (no Korean cognates)
JAPANESE PROTOFORM (recon.):
*ku/ni/ (/ni/ is regarded as a suffix here)
MODERN JAPANESE COGNATE:
ku[ni]
WORD/NAME:
ALTAIC PROTOFORM (recon.):
*ge>re(bV)
TURKIC PROTOFORM (recon.):
*ge.r-tu"
MONGOLIAN PROTOFORM (recon.):
*gere(-g|e)
TUNGUSITIC PROTOFORM (recon.):
*gerbu":
KOREAN PROTOFORM (recon.):
*ky/r OR *ky/rw@/r
JAPANESE PROTOFORM (recon.):
*k@t@ OR *k@t@-pa
MODERN JAPANESE COGNATE:
kotoba
That one's fairly confusing, however I think you should note that SLASHES as well as other marks indicate things that can/could've been used as suffixes/prefixes but eventually got added as part of the word.
Generally if you look further your evidence will prove more to you than this, however as if they are related it's a fairly distant relationship you will hardly come up with conclusive evidence. Look at similarities in phonological systems, as well as grammatical systems (generally Old Japanese fits the profile better than does Modern Japanese because Modern Japanese has loads of Chinese influence)
-
Sum Won
Re: Tone Sandhi
I wouldn't put any research into my mouth, because that's not where research is supposed to go. Research itself is a process of looking for information. Sometimes, this information is unaccessible to people. Topic threads such as this one, was created to answering questions, and sometimes even asking new ones.
Keep that in mind...
Keep that in mind...
Re: Tone Sandhi
LoL! I think you knew what I meant 
And thanks to a certain Sergei What's-his-name, many large etymological databases are searchable online, including DOC (dialects of china), the online version of HanYu FangYan CiHui.
http://starling.rinet.ru/intrtext.htm
And thanks to a certain Sergei What's-his-name, many large etymological databases are searchable online, including DOC (dialects of china), the online version of HanYu FangYan CiHui.
http://starling.rinet.ru/intrtext.htm
-
Sum Won
Re: Tone Sandhi
Thank you for the link, and as the purpose of this thread was set up --the dissemination of information-- you should try reading this:
http://personal.cityu.edu.hk/~ctrandy/STmigrat.pdf
http://personal.cityu.edu.hk/~ctrandy/STmigrat.pdf
-
James Campbell
Re: Tone Sandhi
Sorry I haven't been able to view these postings or reply for a few days. But I'm back.
In response to ichi: well, let's not mess with your mess, since it doesn't really help with the matter. We're not wondering about Mandarin or what tone sandhi really is--I think we know that much already (hey! and words mean different things with different tones? You don't say.... and does your mom still burp you?). Oh, yeah, and I've got a side note too: I have a degree in linguistics and have been doing linguistic research for 10 years, so I don't know if that qualifies me as the so-called linguist that you're looking for.
Thanks to Mark for Hakka tone sandhi, however that doesn't help me understand anything about Cantonese tone sandhi. And as I said in a recent email, the consonant changes that occur in Fuzhou and in Japanese are completely different phenomena, unless you have a way to prove it to me. I wouldn't call what happens in Japanese morphophonology like what happens in Fuzhou and Korean. And as in your response to that email: yes, it looks like it makes it easier to pronounce--that's exactly what morphophonology is about.
The Altaic and Tungus protoforms, though interesting as they sound, neither help to answer my original question. (I think there's a sci.lang group for this). I appreciate your work at providing all that info. I'm familiar with it and have been using Starostin's website for years, though I find that a lot of the Chinese dialectal data is not as accurate as I wish it could be.
However you wrote that there is now an online version of Hanyu Fangyan Cihui, so I immediately went to go check for this update, but I could not find it. Do you mean the original dialect data that has been available there for years on individual characters (ie. Zihui)? If there is a Cihui database, please let me know.
And thank you Sum Won for your link. It is an interesting read (I'm not done with it yet). But I will keep looking for Cantonese tone sandhi.
Also, can anybody explain how to pronounce the 1st tones in Cantonese for phrases like Zhang Xian-sheng (am I repeating myself here). I thought there were several Cantonese speakers here who could help. What I would like to know is which words are spoken level and which ones are spoken falling.
Or let's make it more fun. How about this sentence:
張先生今天吃真多鮮冬瓜。 (Ok, I know you don't really use these words in Cantonese--but maybe there's a similar sentence you can up with and describe the use of level and falling first tone in Cantonese?) Thanks.
Thanks if you can help
James
In response to ichi: well, let's not mess with your mess, since it doesn't really help with the matter. We're not wondering about Mandarin or what tone sandhi really is--I think we know that much already (hey! and words mean different things with different tones? You don't say.... and does your mom still burp you?). Oh, yeah, and I've got a side note too: I have a degree in linguistics and have been doing linguistic research for 10 years, so I don't know if that qualifies me as the so-called linguist that you're looking for.
Thanks to Mark for Hakka tone sandhi, however that doesn't help me understand anything about Cantonese tone sandhi. And as I said in a recent email, the consonant changes that occur in Fuzhou and in Japanese are completely different phenomena, unless you have a way to prove it to me. I wouldn't call what happens in Japanese morphophonology like what happens in Fuzhou and Korean. And as in your response to that email: yes, it looks like it makes it easier to pronounce--that's exactly what morphophonology is about.
The Altaic and Tungus protoforms, though interesting as they sound, neither help to answer my original question. (I think there's a sci.lang group for this). I appreciate your work at providing all that info. I'm familiar with it and have been using Starostin's website for years, though I find that a lot of the Chinese dialectal data is not as accurate as I wish it could be.
However you wrote that there is now an online version of Hanyu Fangyan Cihui, so I immediately went to go check for this update, but I could not find it. Do you mean the original dialect data that has been available there for years on individual characters (ie. Zihui)? If there is a Cihui database, please let me know.
And thank you Sum Won for your link. It is an interesting read (I'm not done with it yet). But I will keep looking for Cantonese tone sandhi.
Also, can anybody explain how to pronounce the 1st tones in Cantonese for phrases like Zhang Xian-sheng (am I repeating myself here). I thought there were several Cantonese speakers here who could help. What I would like to know is which words are spoken level and which ones are spoken falling.
Or let's make it more fun. How about this sentence:
張先生今天吃真多鮮冬瓜。 (Ok, I know you don't really use these words in Cantonese--but maybe there's a similar sentence you can up with and describe the use of level and falling first tone in Cantonese?) Thanks.
Thanks if you can help
James
Re: Tone Sandhi
James--
Generally I was quite surprised at what Ichi said as well, however I don't think that he/she was aware of the level you expected a responce on, perhaps he/she didn't understand what you said so answered it in the wrong way.
Sorry about the Hakka tone sandhi-- I guess it wasn't really a good idea to post that here as it wasn't a responce to your question, but I already posted it (and for what reason? lol)
As for morphophonology in Fuzhou, Japanese, and Korean-- generally this wasn't in responce to your post but in responce to Ichi's, so I responded to him on his own level, indicating one thing-- that MORPHOPHONOLOGY (not including tone sandhi, this is something that happens even in Mandarin to some extent) occurs on a very grand scale in both those languages, but not that the systems of the two were related in any way.
Just curious about Fuzhou, but does this have to do with where a character is in a combination?
And what I said in the e-mail about making pronunciation easier-- I was saying that this is what makes morphophonology in Japanese, Fuzhou, and Korean (and any other language for that matter) similar. Although beyond that it isn't all that similar.
Fuzhou morphophonology DOES seem to affect some Chinese loanwords in Japanese, although I can't think of any examples at the moment.
As for the protoforms-- this was just for Sum Won to show why I thought Japanese was an Altaic language.
And about HanYu FangYan CiHui-- yes, that was a typo, I did mean ZiHui (derned keyboard ;-<)
Generally, this information isn't very very accurate, but it's there... (considering for some of these dialects, unfortunately, that's the only information available to me locally, perhaps I'll request an interlibrary loan sometime in the future) Haven't had time to check it out yet, but somebody told me about http://www.eastling.org
For the rest of your post-- I can't help you, but I can ask some people I know (though as they don't know much about linguistics, but rather are native Cantonese speakers, I might not get as much info as you'd like: they aren't exactly that aware of the nuances of their language)
Generally I was quite surprised at what Ichi said as well, however I don't think that he/she was aware of the level you expected a responce on, perhaps he/she didn't understand what you said so answered it in the wrong way.
Sorry about the Hakka tone sandhi-- I guess it wasn't really a good idea to post that here as it wasn't a responce to your question, but I already posted it (and for what reason? lol)
As for morphophonology in Fuzhou, Japanese, and Korean-- generally this wasn't in responce to your post but in responce to Ichi's, so I responded to him on his own level, indicating one thing-- that MORPHOPHONOLOGY (not including tone sandhi, this is something that happens even in Mandarin to some extent) occurs on a very grand scale in both those languages, but not that the systems of the two were related in any way.
Just curious about Fuzhou, but does this have to do with where a character is in a combination?
And what I said in the e-mail about making pronunciation easier-- I was saying that this is what makes morphophonology in Japanese, Fuzhou, and Korean (and any other language for that matter) similar. Although beyond that it isn't all that similar.
Fuzhou morphophonology DOES seem to affect some Chinese loanwords in Japanese, although I can't think of any examples at the moment.
As for the protoforms-- this was just for Sum Won to show why I thought Japanese was an Altaic language.
And about HanYu FangYan CiHui-- yes, that was a typo, I did mean ZiHui (derned keyboard ;-<)
Generally, this information isn't very very accurate, but it's there... (considering for some of these dialects, unfortunately, that's the only information available to me locally, perhaps I'll request an interlibrary loan sometime in the future) Haven't had time to check it out yet, but somebody told me about http://www.eastling.org
For the rest of your post-- I can't help you, but I can ask some people I know (though as they don't know much about linguistics, but rather are native Cantonese speakers, I might not get as much info as you'd like: they aren't exactly that aware of the nuances of their language)