Hoklo in Taiwan in the context of the Sinosphere at large

[amhoanna]

Hoklo has been in the news constantly in TW over the past couple months, and young Prof. Ciúⁿ Ûibûn of Sêngkong U. in Tâilâm is her knight in shining armor...

Here is the recording of a presentation that Ciúⁿ kàusiū made to a generally friendly audience a couple of days ago. The main thrust of the presentation is to explain the fall of Hoklo in historical context, citing esp. the examples of Vietnam and Korea.

http://blog.roodo.com/subing/archives/16137797.html

A guy in his 20s from the audience speaks up early on to express what is probably the opinion of most TWese his age: Mandarin replaced Hoklo in TW through a foul and unfair process, but, for TWese in their 20s and younger, Mandarin is not just good or bad or this or that, it's everything. It's the only language they can use completely, so ... yeah.

Ciúⁿ says that's good and well, but he says the important question is whether this means that TWese in the future should just go on using Mandarin indefinitely b/c of this. He says this would be like a girl getting raped, and then stepping into the role of the rapist's 小三 "little lover" b/c, well, she might as well, right?

Unlike most Hoklologists, Ciúⁿ is a political realist. That is to say, instead of ignoring politics, he studies it and talks about it. Ciúⁿ points out that the Chinese Nationalist Party wants to be, or is, part of Tiongkok (Zhongguo) politically and culturally - but even the DPP is culturally "Tiongkok" although politically "Taiwanese".

The distinction between "Tiongkok" and "Chinese" is important. He's not saying the DPP is culturally Chinese like a romantic South Seas port city - think Macau, Penang, Sandakan, Miri, Hatyai. He's saying it's culturally "Tiongkok" like Beijing and Taibei. A very important point, b/c it means that at this pt Hoklo in TW is unsupported by any major political player.

I was impressed by a lady in the audience who speaks at the end. Ciúⁿ sees doing away with kanji as an ideal tool for nation-building, b/c it worked so well for VN and Korea. This lady points out that kanji became politically loaded in this context only b/c they (kanji) became associated with Mandarin and only Mandarin. She points out that under Japanese rule, kanji were used for Japanese and for Literary Chinese with Hoklo phonology, and weren't associated with any language in particular. She also mentioned that she was a grad student at the U of Taiwan in the Dept of Law, and that she'd presented her most recent paper in full-on Hoklo, w/o code-switching to Mandarin even once, although the paper itself was written in Modern Standard U-know-what.

I'm a fan of Ciúⁿ most definitely. U can tell that he always feels pressured to get his strong points out fast, b/c in TWese society he is no doubt always getting interrupted and shot down, etc. He makes no bones about the ROC being a foreign occupier. If there's one point where I disagree w/ him, it's that I think the Hoklo themselves are more or less colonizers as well, and he's never acknowledged that. The Chinese word 植民 si̍tbîn describes what the Hoklo did in TW perfectly. Knowing Ciúⁿ, he would probably discuss the point with me directly if we met, unlike most TWese people of all ages who change the topic or go to the bathroom when their logic runs out.

I don't know why I even bother posting this stuff here. I'll have to find a better place for it. And I will, now that I'm out from behind the Great Firewall.

I think these discussions have flared up from time to time in TW since the 90s, but, even though I'm away, I feel that there's something different about this round. There seems to be something kind of earnest about it.

[niuc]

Hi Amhoanna

Although I am not so sure why you think that it's "futile" to post this stuff here, nevertheless thank you very much for your posting. I just listened to the recording and it's indeed very interesting.

It's good to hear many variants of Hoklo there. So they call Mandarin 華語 instead of 國語. I heard many Mandarinized terms, e.g. kind of ironic that Mr Lim in the beginning of the recording, who spoke "against" 華語, yet said 可以 & 如果 instead of 會使 & 若是. Or are the former common terms in TW Hoklo? Prof Ciúⁿ indeed is a good speaker. Where is he from? He said cheⁿ instead of chiⁿ, and even used the term "LP" (common in TW it seems?).

I agree with the lady that 唐人字 doesn't belong to Mandarin only, but historically also used for Hokkien/Hoklo; also with her stance that mixture of kanji & Latin alphabets are OK if necessary.

I agree with you that TW Hoklo themselves are more or less colonizers too. Prof Ciúⁿ mentioned about Taiwanese being stupid for welcoming Chinese army in 1945. But I guess that was understandable, didn't most if not all TW Chinese then felt connected to 大陸, at least to 福建 & 廣東? Early KMT rule in TW might be an exception in the sense that minority of newcomers rule over majority. How about local government in 大陸 then & now, made of locals or certain groups only throughout China?

Lets say that TW in 1945 became an independent country with Hoklo as the national language, that would be great! And as long as it also allowed other languages (or even other Hoklo variants) to flourish. Otherwise Hakka, TW Aborigines, etc would have felt being raped, wouldn't they? Prof Ciúⁿ also mentioned of PRC giving 閩南語 a protected status (that they needed teachers & guidance from TW), do I understand him correctly? It'd be great if all countries, while having national language for lingua franca, can support the preservation and even development of other languages.

[Ah-bin]

That's Taiffalo! Or Ui-vun Taiffalo Chiung, as he used to spell his name. I met him years ago in 2001 and he gave me a copy of his MA thesis. I promised to send him a copy of mine when done, but I was too amshamed of my own effort, and the technology to print it and bind it just didn't exist in New Zealand (at least where I was) at that time, and probably still doesn't. I have always like his work and agree very much with his opinions, but still feel super guilty for never having sent him my work. When the dictionary comes out I'll send him a copy! He also taught himself Hakka.

He comes from 岡山, half way between Tai-lam and Ta-kau (Ko-hiong), as I remember. We went to a book

The Chinese word 植民 si̍tbîn describes what the Hoklo did in TW perfectly.

and in Singapore too. Actually they used this word in Chinese academic discourse in the 1930's to described what went on in Southeast Asia, before the term was restricted to the unsavoury activities of foreigners. There was a book called 中國殖民史 I believe, dealing with the Chinese colonistion of Southeast Asia.

What is always interesting to me is that Singapore was called a British colony, but hardly any British people actually colonised the place, but got the Chinese to do it for them instead. This was unlike New Zealand and Australia where there was actually a physical colonisation of British people that swamped out and occupied the locals turning them into minorities. I remember having that conversation with a Mandarin teacher in Seng-kong Tai-hak in Tai-lam, and she just couldn't accept that Chinese had colonised Taiwan, just like British people had colonised New Zealand. I decided that she just didn't have a basic understanding of what the word actually meant, and therefore wasn't equipped to discuss the issue in the first place.

I have found that quite a few Taiwanese are rather immature when it comes to political discussion (hence the fist fights in parliament, hatred of political opponents, and politicians insulting each other like the WWF wrestlers used toin the late 80's). Sometimes Taiffalo seemed a bit weary of it as well.

They often aren't used to the idea of respectfully disagreeing with someone. For them Amhoanna, perhaps it's harder talking to you than to me, because when you bring up some uncomfortable point they can't feel safe in the knowledge that the white person just can't understand properly. That isn't everyone of course, but I've met a fair few like that.

I used to have great arguments with the watchman in the building I lived in in Tailam, but we got on well together, and he later sent me a copy of the 古文觀止 when I was back in New Zealand. He once told me that the reason that he liked me was because most other people who disagreed with his political opinions would just stop talking to him. Things would often get very heated between us, but he would never go to the bathroom when his logic ran out, and neither would I. Good old Mr Chan from Hoiping 開平, he taught me how to get drunk on cold green tea and one of my favourite Mandarin expressions 老虎不在山 猴子就成王 "When the tiger is off the mountain the monkey becomes king!" he told me that when his wife was away in Taipak for a few days!

[amhoanna]

Although I am not so sure why you think that it's "futile" to post this stuff here, nevertheless thank you very much for your posting. I just listened to the recording and it's indeed very interesting.

Cool. I guess I was wrong. I thought nobody else took any stock in talking about the power issues.

So they call Mandarin 華語 instead of 國語.

This started with politically conscious folks, and foreigners (MY/SG). Back in 2003 most people were confused when I called it 華語, and even annoyed when they realized I meant Mandarin. The media's been onto 華語 for 三冬五冬 now. The Blues don't mind it b/c it has a very Chinese Nationalist flavor. Most TWese of any persuasion still call it 国語, esp. when speaking Hoklo. Once again, Blue Hoklos seem to be slowest on the uptake, followed by Green hiongchins.

Now that we've managed to spread 華語, maybe the time is ripe to go back to calling it 官話. I was surprised to see the word Quan Thoại (官話) in a Vietnamese dictionary - it actually means Mandarin! I'm not part of the rose-is-still-a-rose camp. I think these naming changes change how we think, moving forward. It seems to me the TWese are at a higher level of consciousness now compared to the last round of heated discussion about Hoklo, and the shift from 国語 to 華語 might've helped bring on that upgrade.

可以 & 如果 instead of 會使 & 若是

I think a lot of intellectuals do this now - the people who can see and express the political issues most clearly, yet ironically heavily influenced by written Modern Std Chinese. And I think most of people who spoke in the recording had Mandarinized pronunciations, esp. their /b/ and /g/ were fading to /p/ and /0/ (zero initial). Did U notice this?

Otherwise Hakka, TW Aborigines, etc would have felt being raped, wouldn't they?

Unfortunately, some (many?) asli women really were raped. No easy solutions here. As for the Hakka, I don't think they would've actually felt raped. They might feel raped if U made them speak Malay in a place where they migrated voluntarily, but U could impose Mandarin on them in their ancestral villages and they wouldn't feel a thing. That is just Hakka psychology. I'll even go out on a limb and guess that if the Hoklo hadn't colonized Formosa and turned it over to the Qing, the Hakka wouldn't've gone either ... unless some farang went to Hong Kong with a boat - something very few Hakkas had back then - and told them to get on. I'm not trying to be offensive, just challenging.

But I guess that was understandable, didn't most if not all TW Chinese then felt connected to 大陸, at least to 福建 & 廣東?

True. Taiffalo's understanding goes against the grain of Hoklo "tribal instinct". But Taiffalo is trying to open Sino-TWese minds to the idea that maybe if they would've treated Chiang Kaishek's men the way the VNese did, they would be better off today. I see this as mainly relevant b/c "Island Hoklos" today continue to give the benefit of the doubt to the offshoots of Chiang Kaishek's men, and they are worse off b/c of it.

How about local government in 大陸 then & now, made of locals or certain groups only throughout China?

Seems that everywhere in China, the local cadres are from local families. Not sure.

Early KMT rule in TW might be an exception in the sense that minority of newcomers rule over majority.

Not just early KMT rule. It's still partly true today! In the old days, politically conscious Hoklo would point the finger at "Goasengga" 外省仔. And people would pop their balloons by bringing up examples of poor, unconnected 外省仔 with no privilege. Now the discourse has matured. U'll hear Hoklos talking about 高級外省人 who consider themselves to be "kài kosióng". Ironically, they're usually talking about this on a social level and don't connect the dots to politics. As U might expect, almost all Taros (Goasengga) and Blue Sino-Taiwanese will deny that finance, education, the media, the military, and the judiciary are run by 高級外省人... I have friends who really feel sorry for me b/c I'm deluded enough to notice the "trend"...

[amhoanna]

He comes from 岡山, half way between Tai-lam and Ta-kau (Ko-hiong), as I remember. We went to a book

Kongsoaⁿ'á 岡山仔 / 囝 in Hoklo, right? Your story got cut off, BTW.

I remember having that conversation with a Mandarin teacher in Seng-kong Tai-hak in Tai-lam, and she just couldn't accept that Chinese had colonised Taiwan, just like British people had colonised New Zealand.

Sure. Fixed notions of what 植民 is and isn't. Poss. also a belief that "Chinese/Tnglang don't colonize".

Why does ModStdChinese have 殖民 instead of 植民 anyway? Maybe that adds to the confusion.

They often aren't used to the idea of respectfully disagreeing with someone.

True, I think. I'd even say, most of us SE Asians / south coast Tnglang aren't used to the idea of disagreeing with someone to their face. Maybe this is why the North Chinese are inheriting Amoy, etc.

For them Amhoanna, perhaps it's harder talking to you than to me, because when you bring up some uncomfortable point they can't feel safe in the knowledge that the white person just can't understand properly.

Makes sense. I guess I wouldn't know for sure. I have heard a couple of Blue friends say, kind of bitterly, "Why do waiguoren [white folks] all sympathize with Green?" (B/c they read the Taipei Times. ) They're part of a long line of "misunderstood Chinese" going back to the Opium War. The white man must be made to understand, & then he will love us, etc. etc.

My experience: Taro Blues may circle with caution if they think I'm a Yam, but if they know I'm a Taro, they'll honestly think I'm missing something. They give me a Taro-to-Taro look, like, "Come on, I'm telling U, don't be fooled. I'm tryinna help U here." Blue Yams are situational - setting, relationship, rank, etc. Greens esp. are scared to show their hand "in the open" - maybe as an adaptation. Most Yam Greens are only Green in the same way Latin Americans are Catholic, i.e. b/c their family is. We can challenge Taros with the question of why there's no Green Taros, but if the avg Green Yam met a Green Taro, they would think, "Hmm, now, if I was a Taro, I would sure as hell be Blue. Cinnià m̄ cai cit ê lâng be' pìⁿ saⁿ' báng ·le, li ta yuan yidian ba."

I have found that quite a few Taiwanese are rather immature when it comes to political discussion (hence the fist fights in parliament, hatred of political opponents, and politicians insulting each other like the WWF wrestlers used toin the late 80's).

Actually, there's something unique about talking to Blue/Tionghoa types that makes me want to use force. There is just no way to communicate.

I haven't met a lot of confrontational Greens, but I see them on TV. They remind me of Taiwan frontier stories, 18 Laus vs 28 Lims over a plot of farmland with cudgels and farming tools, survival of the fittest family...

Good old Mr Chan from Hoiping 開平

We had a watchman from Hong Kong when I lived in Đàoviên - oops, I mean Thôhûiⁿ.

[niuc]

This started with politically conscious folks, and foreigners (MY/SG). Back in 2003 most people were confused when I called it 華語, and even annoyed when they realized I meant Mandarin. The media's been onto 華語 for 三冬五冬 now.

Ah, may be this is a good sample of how new terms are introduced into a language? Media indeed is very powerful. And I find it "amazing" that in 2003 it was barely known, and yet now in the recording I didn't notice anyone using the term 國語!

Now that we've managed to spread 華語, maybe the time is ripe to go back to calling it 官話. I was surprised to see the word Quan Thoại (官話) in a Vietnamese dictionary - it actually means Mandarin!

Similar to the term 國語 Kok-gí· in Bâ-gán-uē or the term "Koyi" used by some Chinese in Jakarta, referring to Mandarin rather than the national language i.e. Bahasa Indonesia.

I'm not part of the rose-is-still-a-rose camp. I think these naming changes change how we think, moving forward. It seems to me the TWese are at a higher level of consciousness now compared to the last round of heated discussion about Hoklo, and the shift from 国語 to 華語 might've helped bring on that upgrade.

Yes. Personally I don't like using terms 華語 and 漢語 (or Chinese) to refer to Mandarin, because IMO those terms are too general and are a kind of propaganda for Mandarin to be the language of all Chinese. I would prefer to call it 北京話, but seem not too accurate.... how about 華北語? Too mouthful?

And I think most of people who spoke in the recording had Mandarinized pronunciations, esp. their /b/ and /g/ were fading to /p/ and /0/ (zero initial). Did U notice this?

I noticed about /g/ -> /0/. Btw I could easily understand only Prof Ciúⁿ and the lady towards the end of the recording. For others I had to pay more attention and didn't understand all their words.

Unfortunately, some (many?) asli women really were raped.

Hiaî khîm-siù put-dû ê-ta-po·, ing-kai-kā-in hong-cuè-thài-kàm!

I see this as mainly relevant b/c "Island Hoklos" today continue to give the benefit of the doubt to the offshoots of Chiang Kaishek's men, and they are worse off b/c of it.

Ah! So, meaning they still vote for those men?

Not just early KMT rule. It's still partly true today! In the old days, politically conscious Hoklo would point the finger at "Goasengga" 外省仔. And people would pop their balloons by bringing up examples of poor, unconnected 外省仔 with no privilege. Now the discourse has matured. U'll hear Hoklos talking about 高級外省人 who consider themselves to be "kài kosióng". Ironically, they're usually talking about this on a social level and don't connect the dots to politics. As U might expect, almost all Taros (Goasengga) and Blue Sino-Taiwanese will deny that finance, education, the media, the military, and the judiciary are run by 高級外省人... I have friends who really feel sorry for me b/c I'm deluded enough to notice the "trend"...

Still? That's sad. I did notice that TW tv media & entertainment circle were controlled by Taros. Now still? Are the richest in TW Taros also? How did you manage to escape the delusion, bcs you grew up in US? How many Hoklos/Hakka/Alisan-lâng realize this? Any Taros who grew up in TW care to admit that?

True, I think. I'd even say, most of us SE Asians / south coast Tnglang aren't used to the idea of disagreeing with someone to their face. Maybe this is why the North Chinese are inheriting Amoy, etc.

Yes, and not only Tnglang, usually even more so among (most) native SE Asians. Isn't this also true throughout (Far) East Asia, including Korean & Japanese?

Btw, how prevalent is the mix-marriage between Taros and Yams? And how do they usually identify themselves (esp. the children)? Actually the Taros are not homogenous, coming from many different area of China, right? So they are unified in the same interest against Yams?

[amhoanna]

Personally I don't like using terms 華語 and 漢語 (or Chinese) to refer to Mandarin, because IMO those terms are too general and are a kind of propaganda for Mandarin to be the language of all Chinese. I would prefer to call it 北京話, but seem not too accurate.... how about 華北語?

Goá mā sī ánne siūⁿ. Older TWese educated pre-ROC often call(ed) it 北京話. It made Taros go ballistic! I like 官話 better. It goes together with Mandarin speakers' obsession with rank, titles, bureaucracy, etc. (esp. in China).

For others I had to pay more attention and didn't understand all their words.

That's what it's like for me all the time!

Hiaî khîm-siù put-dû ê-ta-po·, ing-kai-kā-in hong-cuè-thài-kàm!

Lí cai ·bô, the Paiwan word for HOKLO is actually "Phailang".

So, meaning they still vote for those men?

Well, I meant that the average Yam isn't fully taking into account the effects of the "privilege complex" that some - most? - Taros enjoy, or enjoyed till recently.

To answer your Q: sometimes - look at Ma Engkau. To be fair, Yam men voted against him. Yam women and Taros put him in office.

It's funny. When Yams vote for Yams, people talk about how these dumb Yams were tricked into voting along ethnic lines, how the Yam candidates played the ethnic card, etc. But how often do Taros vote for a Yam over a Taro in any election big or small? They will always vote against the Hoklo Yam. The media never calls that voting along ethnic lines.

I did notice that TW tv media & entertainment circle were controlled by Taros. Now still?

Still! But it might be a "coincidence" at this pt. When U "define" a country as "Modern China" and enforce Mandarin Only, it's only natural that the media would be run by "authentic Chinese" whose families went through authentic historical events such as the Revolution of 1911, the anti-Japanese resistance, etc.

People tend to argue: "This is so not true. Nowadays U can't even tell if someone is a Taro or a Yam!" True, in many circles. Media circles are flooded with Yams who talk, think and act as if their (grand)parents really arrived from Qingdao on a boat in 1949. Young modern Yams "know" that they come from political repression, but they "feel" more like they come out of 眷村. They know they were brainwashed, but so what? All they know is they like TV stars who don't have Hoklo accents - subconsciously. U can't tell the media to "be radical". They are businesses. They make money by serving people who are brainwashed.

Are the richest in TW Taros also?

The bureaucracy and gov't corruption favored Taros for decades. Evergreen wouldn't have made it w/o Japanese angel lenders. But Yams and Taros got rich together in the "Tiger" days. The people who struck it rich selling their land in the 80s and 90s were all Yams. U will hear Taros talk about how, as Taros, they had to scrap and be self-made, w/o "Yam Privilege". But the poor and destitute are also almost all Yams, or asli. True, there are working-class Taros too - usually with Yam or asli mothers. They speak better Hoklo than Hoklo yuppies.

How did you manage to escape the delusion, bcs you grew up in US? How many Hoklos/Hakka/Alisan-lâng realize this? Any Taros who grew up in TW care to admit that?

On the web, U will find lots of voices that escaped the delusion. The Blue party line is that all this stuff only happened in the past, but it's all fixed now, esp. since aPíⁿ's time in power. This is ironic, b/c they fought aPíⁿ tooth and nail from Day 1! Blues, but Taros esp., like to tell me (the gaijin) that nobody even talks about this stuff anymore, like I've been stuck in 1998 or something. On the web U will find articles and discussions on this dating back to last week.

As for me, I'm not sure. U would have to ask my shrink.

Btw, how prevalent is the mix-marriage between Taros and Yams? And how do they usually identify themselves (esp. the children)?

Very common. The (adult) children prefer to identify themselves as "Taiwanese". Their world view is usually a straight-up ROC world view.

Someone commented recently that in Taro-Yam marriages, the Yam spouse will always conform to the hardcore ROC worldview of the Taro spouse - no matter who kè, who choā.

Historically, something like 80-90% of Yam-Taro marriages were Yam girl, Taro guy. People can say what they want - which way the girls flow is usually the best test of what's the score. And there will be a lot of "pent-up anger" on the side that's losing the women. Again, Taros will deny all this and claim that Yam Hoklo families didn't let their sons marry Taro. Probably a grain of truth there, but still. Ironically those Taros will move to Oz or the US. Their daughters will marry white guys while their sons complain about the conspiracy against Asian men. The daughters will see the world as a white person, and so will the sons that "manage to" get with a white girl. And white people everywhere will say none of this happens.

Actually the Taros are not homogenous, coming from many different area of China, right? So they are unified in the same interest against Yams?

TW Taros have always been unified by their religious belief in "Tionghoa-ism", just like the Bugis and Minangs in Malaya had Islam. Taros born after a certain point (1975?) don't speak any heritage languages, unless it's Mandarin or Hoklo. (The only exception I met was ... Cantonese. ) Here were these ROC faithful surrounded by closet Japanese rebels, with hoanna in the mountains and Reds offshore... And it really sealed their identities as one ROC people.

Taros are really not "against Yams". In the ROC worldview, there are no Yams & Taros. Everyone is just "Chinese" (the Ma version) or "Taiwanese" (the Choà Engbûn version). They speak Mandarin, celebrate 10-10, etc. As long as a Yam is willing to play on these terms, they are "in", just like Taro Hoklo. A Yam who fights these terms is a traitor, a backstabber - worse than an enemy.

[niuc]

Many thanks, Amhoanna!

It's funny. When Yams vote for Yams, people talk about how these dumb Yams were tricked into voting along ethnic lines, how the Yam candidates played the ethnic card, etc. But how often do Taros vote for a Yam over a Taro in any election big or small? They will always vote against the Hoklo Yam. The media never calls that voting along ethnic lines.

Double standards indeed, but somewhat not surprising.

Still! But it might be a "coincidence" at this pt. When U "define" a country as "Modern China" and enforce Mandarin Only, it's only natural that the media would be run by "authentic Chinese" whose families went through authentic historical events such as the Revolution of 1911, the anti-Japanese resistance, etc.

You got good point here.

People tend to argue: "This is so not true. Nowadays U can't even tell if someone is a Taro or a Yam!" True, in many circles. Media circles are flooded with Yams who talk, think and act as if their (grand)parents really arrived from Qingdao on a boat in 1949. Young modern Yams "know" that they come from political repression, but they "feel" more like they come out of 眷村.

This sounds strangely familiar and "natural"! Probably due to low self-identification…

They know they were brainwashed, but so what? All they know is they like TV stars who don't have Hoklo accents - subconsciously. U can't tell the media to "be radical". They are businesses. They make money by serving people who are brainwashed.

Understandable. Personally I also don’t prefer to hear Mandarin with Hoklo or Cantonese etc accents; and neither the Beijing rolling version for that matter. Btw how many people in TW speaking Mandarin "without accent", i.e. like news presenters? And how many in PRC? I like the Mandarin of CCTV4 news presenters (clear and not really rolling IMO), but I suspect not many people in PRC speak like that. Even their leaders speak with strong accents, don’t they?

What I think as ideal is to speak any language without "accent", i.e. they should be able to speak good Mandarin and also good Hoklo (and other languages if any). I think this is possible, right?

True, there are working-class Taros too - usually with Yam or asli mothers. They speak better Hoklo than Hoklo yuppies.

Good to know that they speak Hoklo too.

Blues, but Taros esp., like to tell me (the gaijin) that nobody even talks about this stuff anymore, like I've been stuck in 1998 or something. On the web U will find articles and discussions on this dating back to last week.

So it is not in media and also rarely in daily conversations? Even the Greens are not talking about this?

Historically, something like 80-90% of Yam-Taro marriages were Yam girl, Taro guy. People can say what they want - which way the girls flow is usually the best test of what's the score. And there will be a lot of "pent-up anger" on the side that's losing the women. Again, Taros will deny all this and claim that Yam Hoklo families didn't let their sons marry Taro. Probably a grain of truth there, but still. Ironically those Taros will move to Oz or the US. Their daughters will marry white guys while their sons complain about the conspiracy against Asian men. The daughters will see the world as a white person, and so will the sons that "manage to" get with a white girl. And white people everywhere will say none of this happens.

Bingo! I think it is a "natural" flow from less privileged group to fit into the "ruling" group, especially true for girls who naturally look for better prospect to raise their offspring.

Taros are really not "against Yams". In the ROC worldview, there are no Yams & Taros. Everyone is just "Chinese" (the Ma version) or "Taiwanese" (the Choà Engbûn version). They speak Mandarin, celebrate 10-10, etc. As long as a Yam is willing to play on these terms, they are "in", just like Taro Hoklo. A Yam who fights these terms is a traitor, a backstabber - worse than an enemy.

Ah, yes, that explains a lot. Btw what is Taro Hoklo? Is it Blue Hoklo? And why even DPP is committed to ROC worldview and Mandarin?

This morning I saw my mom watching CCTV4. It showed one of its news presenters touring 台北, highlighting that there are 長春路 in its north east part, 杭州路 in its eastern section and so on. She gladly explained that the whole台北 is a miniature of 中國. That must sound ironic to lots of PRCs.

[Ah-bin]

Historically, something like 80-90% of Yam-Taro marriages were Yam girl, Taro guy. People can say what they want - which way the girls flow is usually the best test of what's the score. And there will be a lot of "pent-up anger" on the side that's losing the women. Again, Taros will deny all this and claim that Yam Hoklo families didn't let their sons marry Taro. Probably a grain of truth there, but still. Ironically those Taros will move to Oz or the US. Their daughters will marry white guys while their sons complain about the conspiracy against Asian men. The daughters will see the world as a white person, and so will the sons that "manage to" get with a white girl. And white people everywhere will say none of this happens.

Hehehe, well this white person doesn't find anything to disagree with in the above.

Wasn't there also a secondary reason for the high proportion of Yam girl Taro guy marriages? Wasn't there was a huge gender imbalance in the numbers of Taros to start with? I remember a lot of old single soldiers hanging around the 眷村 who had never married.

[amhoanna]

I think it is a "natural" flow from less privileged group to fit into the "ruling" group, especially true for girls who naturally look for better prospect to raise their offspring.

I think so. Girls don't have much time to figure out where to "hatch their young".

So it is not in media and also rarely in daily conversations? Even the Greens are not talking about this?

These are uncool, taboo subjects now, not allowed in the workplace, etc. Some people, esp. Strawberries (the 80s generation), won't even admit these are taboo subjects - they just say they're out of date.

Greens tend to shy away from Blue-Green confrontation by shutting up. They also shy away from Green-Green confrontation by only talking about topics that everybody can agree on. Nowadays, Greens don't even agree with each other on the Independence issue, so they pretend it doesn't exist. Instead, they talk about what a shithole China is, b/c they can all agree on it. So they are right where the KMT was 30 yrs ago, bashing China for solidarity. I've been in private Green settings. There's always a lot of butt-sniffing up front, and then everyone smiles and says it's great we're all Green, and then they start bashing China. But there is one profession that tends to be candid about these issues: taxi drivers.

Btw what is Taro Hoklo? Is it Blue Hoklo?

Taro = "Goāsénggá". So Taro Hoklo refers to Hoklo Goāsénggá (Mand: "外省閩南人") that migrated from Southern Hokkien to TW starting in 1945 - but not later than the 70s or so.

In practice, Taro Hoklo are almost all Blue. But most Blue Hoklo are Yams. And, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the few Green Taros were Hoklo.

Understandable. Personally I also don’t prefer to hear Mandarin with Hoklo or Cantonese etc accents; and neither the Beijing rolling version for that matter.

I think you're talking about the Beijing Downtown accent, where "你說我是小孩儿" comes out as "Ni ror yar!" In context, this was probably the accent of the pigtailed masses during the Qing. The "suave, elegant" Uptown accent that Beijing shares with Manchuria was probably the accent of Sinicized Manchus and the Han who worked for them directly. No surprise that Mod Std Chinese is based on the Uptown accent while Southerners use the Downtown accent as a whipping boy.