Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the field
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haroldmanila
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:54 pm
Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
i always hear "bantay" meaning VERY from my elder relatives( 50s and older ) when they are conversing when i was a child. I also heard the name "Lima Hong", but from the stories I heard he was a chinese trader, but I didn't bother to investigate the authenticity. I don't know much about the history of early chinese especially relating with the people in our province ( outside Metro Manila ). I have lived my whole life in the city, 45 years and counting.
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tanbankiat
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 4:03 pm
Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
Hi all (tai ke ho), what a pity that I just discovered this site tonight, while looking for Minnan kinship terms. Just last weekend there was a conference on the ethnic Chinese in the Philippines, with a focus on Mindanao (the southern Philippines). I presented a paper: "Evolving Lannang Oe: Filipino or Chinese Dialect?" to highlight how Minnan spinned off into Lannang Oe which, in turn, is now evolving all kinds of variations depending on the interactions with Philippine languages and dialects. We had a great session. Tessie Ang See, one of the leaders of the local Chinese community, said her favorite example of evolving Lannang Oe is bo la bo sa to mean "no flavor" in food. The original Minnan was bo bi bo so (bi so meaning flavor) but the mutated Lannang version takes off from the Tagalog lasa for flavor. (Lasa, in turn, is probably Sanskrit derived.)
I'm a medical anthropologist (product of the University of Amsterdam!) but work in that area keeps bringing me into linguistics. There's also a personal touch to all this. I studied in a Jesuit school, Xavier, where we were penalized if we spoke in languages other than English and Putonghua (Mandarin at that time). Many of us lapsed more often into Minnan rather than Filipino. Now almost 60, and raising young children, I'm rediscovering Minnan and Lannang Oe hoping, like Haroldmanila, that my kids will appreciate the language as part of their heritage. I'm also fascinated by the written forms (courtesy of the Taiwanese government site), and wondering how we managed to learn Lannang Oe without writing it. Our 老家, both from my father and mother's sides, is 南安 and I'm third generation Chinese, and know many third-, fourth and even fifth-generation ethnic Chinese who still speak Lannang Oe. It's an important marker: when I have older visitors and they meet my kids they ask if they can speak Lannang Oe. If you can't then, well, you're no longer lan nang.
Lots of other ideas and info to share in the future. With the kids, and aging parents, and taking care of a college with 2000 students and 200 faculty, I won't be able to visit this site too often, but will try my best.
Loo lat to all of you. 劳力 A professor from Taiwan's Fo Guang University told me it's an old Minnan phrase to say thanks, appreciating all the energy and effort one puts in to get something done. My 88-year old father was surprised when I asked him about it, saying he hadn't heard the term used in years. He also told me to look up kinship terms because Minnan has so many of them and indeed, I grew up hearing so many of the terms and getting thoroughly confused. Your other thread on Minnan kinship terms was very useful. . .I've cut it out to study some more, and will add some terms I got from my father, as well as some questions.
I'm a medical anthropologist (product of the University of Amsterdam!) but work in that area keeps bringing me into linguistics. There's also a personal touch to all this. I studied in a Jesuit school, Xavier, where we were penalized if we spoke in languages other than English and Putonghua (Mandarin at that time). Many of us lapsed more often into Minnan rather than Filipino. Now almost 60, and raising young children, I'm rediscovering Minnan and Lannang Oe hoping, like Haroldmanila, that my kids will appreciate the language as part of their heritage. I'm also fascinated by the written forms (courtesy of the Taiwanese government site), and wondering how we managed to learn Lannang Oe without writing it. Our 老家, both from my father and mother's sides, is 南安 and I'm third generation Chinese, and know many third-, fourth and even fifth-generation ethnic Chinese who still speak Lannang Oe. It's an important marker: when I have older visitors and they meet my kids they ask if they can speak Lannang Oe. If you can't then, well, you're no longer lan nang.
Lots of other ideas and info to share in the future. With the kids, and aging parents, and taking care of a college with 2000 students and 200 faculty, I won't be able to visit this site too often, but will try my best.
Loo lat to all of you. 劳力 A professor from Taiwan's Fo Guang University told me it's an old Minnan phrase to say thanks, appreciating all the energy and effort one puts in to get something done. My 88-year old father was surprised when I asked him about it, saying he hadn't heard the term used in years. He also told me to look up kinship terms because Minnan has so many of them and indeed, I grew up hearing so many of the terms and getting thoroughly confused. Your other thread on Minnan kinship terms was very useful. . .I've cut it out to study some more, and will add some terms I got from my father, as well as some questions.
Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
Hi Ban Kiat,
How nice to hear from you - thanks for posting.
A very warm and hearty welcome to this Forum
! There's lots of good stuff here, and I hope you'll have the time and energy to add to it, and share with us information about Lannang Oe.
It's also very encouraging to hear how alive Lannang Oe is in the Philippines. I never knew about this before joining this Forum. I wonder why it's not more well-known outside the Philippines...
Nice example you gave of "bo la bo sa". In fact, "rasa" means "taste" or "feeling" in Malay (so, very close to Tagalog, certainly in the first meaning), and it's this latter meaning which has been adopted/adapted in Penang Baba Hokkien: "wa bo la sa" means "I didn't think", "I never guessed/imagined", "I never took into account" [that he might steal the book / buy a new house / try to escape from jail / treat everyone to a huge meal]. It expresses quite a strong element of surprise.
Cool that you have an Amsterdam connection, as I live here!
About not speaking Hokkien in school. Well, we had it too, but it wasn't very strict. I don't remember ever being theatened or told not to. Kids just naturally didn't do it. (Thinking about it now, that seems slightly improbably, so there must have been admonitions which I have forgotten.)
Anyway, here's one story that I don't think I've ever told on this Forum.
I happened when I was in the middle of Primary School (Std 3 or 4, so about the age of 9-10). All classes were "streamed" in those days, so there was an A-class, B-class, C-class, etc, all the way to F-class. And - supposedly(!) - the smartest students were meant to be in the A-class, the slightly less smart students in B-class, etc. But in reality, it was the privileged kids from middle-class or rich backgrounds who were in the A- and B-class, and the poor kids who were in the E- and F-class. [This is a broad generalization, of course. There were definitely 1-2 really smart poor kids in the A- class. I don't think there were ever any really dumb rich kids in the F-class though - tuition at home, etc could always compensate for that]. The A- and B-class kids spoke English quite fluently (many of them spoke it natively or semi-natively at home), and the E- and F-class kids spoke it very badly.
One day, one of the teachers was sick, and our class had to be joined with the E- or F-class for a few periods. [Don't ask me how we fitted into one classroom! There were 30-40 kids to a classroom in those days, and I don't remember any classroom having more than 1-2 spare chairs/desks, so I no longer remember how they managed to combine the two classes. But they did.]
The Headmistress was Eurasian, and for some reason, she took charge of this combined class. She was a middle-aged "Mam" type, very prim and proper, very strict. Like many Eurasians, she spoke English natively. She seemed "very English" to all of us. At one stage, she told us to take out a specific book we were supposed to be reading. Everyone got their book out of their bag and put it on their desk. Except for one poor little F-class boy. He just sat there without his book on his desk.
When the Headmistress noticed this, she made him stand up. "Why haven't you put your book on your desk?". He remained silent. She started to get angry. "I asked you why you haven't put your book on your desk?!?!". He looked at her, quite intimidated, but with a very slight smirk on his face (I think to compensate for his nervousness). Finally he said "I no bring come". We could see the Headmistress almost *explode* with fury. "WHAT did you say?!?!". The boy repeated it: "I no bring come". Many of the members of the class were already giggling slightly. " 'I no bring come'??? 'I no bring come'??? What's 'I no bring come???'!!! It's 'I H-A-V-E-N-'-T B-R-O-U-G-H-T I-T' !!!! Say after me: 'I haven't brought it', 'I haven't brought it'. The poor boy just helplessly repeated the phrase after her. "Right, sit down. Next time, don't forget your book". He sat down, and didn't get into any more trouble, thank goodness! But by this stage, some members of the class were laughing hysterically. More at the Headmistresses fury than at their poor classmate, I think / hope.
And the whole point of telling this story was to share about the sociolinguistics of the situation. Obviously, "I no bring come" was "wa bo gia lai". This was a sort of pidgin English which we could ALL speak quite fluently. "Why you yesterday no come?" (= "Why didn't you come yesterday?"), "You no want go, a?" (= "Don't you want to go?"), etc. As far as I can see, it's basically Chinese (Hokkien) grammar, using English words. I imagine it's still common in Malaysia today (merging into Manglish)...?
How nice to hear from you - thanks for posting.
A very warm and hearty welcome to this Forum
! There's lots of good stuff here, and I hope you'll have the time and energy to add to it, and share with us information about Lannang Oe.It's also very encouraging to hear how alive Lannang Oe is in the Philippines. I never knew about this before joining this Forum. I wonder why it's not more well-known outside the Philippines...
Nice example you gave of "bo la bo sa". In fact, "rasa" means "taste" or "feeling" in Malay (so, very close to Tagalog, certainly in the first meaning), and it's this latter meaning which has been adopted/adapted in Penang Baba Hokkien: "wa bo la sa" means "I didn't think", "I never guessed/imagined", "I never took into account" [that he might steal the book / buy a new house / try to escape from jail / treat everyone to a huge meal]. It expresses quite a strong element of surprise.
Cool that you have an Amsterdam connection, as I live here!
About not speaking Hokkien in school. Well, we had it too, but it wasn't very strict. I don't remember ever being theatened or told not to. Kids just naturally didn't do it. (Thinking about it now, that seems slightly improbably, so there must have been admonitions which I have forgotten.)
Anyway, here's one story that I don't think I've ever told on this Forum.
I happened when I was in the middle of Primary School (Std 3 or 4, so about the age of 9-10). All classes were "streamed" in those days, so there was an A-class, B-class, C-class, etc, all the way to F-class. And - supposedly(!) - the smartest students were meant to be in the A-class, the slightly less smart students in B-class, etc. But in reality, it was the privileged kids from middle-class or rich backgrounds who were in the A- and B-class, and the poor kids who were in the E- and F-class. [This is a broad generalization, of course. There were definitely 1-2 really smart poor kids in the A- class. I don't think there were ever any really dumb rich kids in the F-class though - tuition at home, etc could always compensate for that]. The A- and B-class kids spoke English quite fluently (many of them spoke it natively or semi-natively at home), and the E- and F-class kids spoke it very badly.
One day, one of the teachers was sick, and our class had to be joined with the E- or F-class for a few periods. [Don't ask me how we fitted into one classroom! There were 30-40 kids to a classroom in those days, and I don't remember any classroom having more than 1-2 spare chairs/desks, so I no longer remember how they managed to combine the two classes. But they did.]
The Headmistress was Eurasian, and for some reason, she took charge of this combined class. She was a middle-aged "Mam" type, very prim and proper, very strict. Like many Eurasians, she spoke English natively. She seemed "very English" to all of us. At one stage, she told us to take out a specific book we were supposed to be reading. Everyone got their book out of their bag and put it on their desk. Except for one poor little F-class boy. He just sat there without his book on his desk.
When the Headmistress noticed this, she made him stand up. "Why haven't you put your book on your desk?". He remained silent. She started to get angry. "I asked you why you haven't put your book on your desk?!?!". He looked at her, quite intimidated, but with a very slight smirk on his face (I think to compensate for his nervousness). Finally he said "I no bring come". We could see the Headmistress almost *explode* with fury. "WHAT did you say?!?!". The boy repeated it: "I no bring come". Many of the members of the class were already giggling slightly. " 'I no bring come'??? 'I no bring come'??? What's 'I no bring come???'!!! It's 'I H-A-V-E-N-'-T B-R-O-U-G-H-T I-T' !!!! Say after me: 'I haven't brought it', 'I haven't brought it'. The poor boy just helplessly repeated the phrase after her. "Right, sit down. Next time, don't forget your book". He sat down, and didn't get into any more trouble, thank goodness! But by this stage, some members of the class were laughing hysterically. More at the Headmistresses fury than at their poor classmate, I think / hope.
And the whole point of telling this story was to share about the sociolinguistics of the situation. Obviously, "I no bring come" was "wa bo gia lai". This was a sort of pidgin English which we could ALL speak quite fluently. "Why you yesterday no come?" (= "Why didn't you come yesterday?"), "You no want go, a?" (= "Don't you want to go?"), etc. As far as I can see, it's basically Chinese (Hokkien) grammar, using English words. I imagine it's still common in Malaysia today (merging into Manglish)...?
Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
Sim, he also posted this article recently. It's worthy reading.
http://opinion.inquirer.net/46435/kiong-hee-please
And thanks for sharing another of your stories, Sim. BTW, last weekends I was at my parents' and found in my bookshelf a Singlish phrasebook I didn't even remember I had bought. I was still in High School, so probably from 7 years ago or so. Back then, the book wasn't useful at all, but now many things actually make sense since they're actually Hokkien
http://opinion.inquirer.net/46435/kiong-hee-please
And thanks for sharing another of your stories, Sim. BTW, last weekends I was at my parents' and found in my bookshelf a Singlish phrasebook I didn't even remember I had bought. I was still in High School, so probably from 7 years ago or so. Back then, the book wasn't useful at all, but now many things actually make sense since they're actually Hokkien
Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
Hi FutureSpy,
Thanks for posting the link. I read it with great interest! It's really lovely to see an ever increasing presence - and the consequent increase in awareness about lannang oe - on the net. Nice to see the "bo la bo sa" which Ban Kiat posted about also mentioned in that link.
There must be many, many parallels between lannang oe and what happened to Hokkien in Malaysia, particularly its Baba form.
I imagine that amhoanna is also pleased to see all this. Long live pidgins and creoles !
Thanks for posting the link. I read it with great interest! It's really lovely to see an ever increasing presence - and the consequent increase in awareness about lannang oe - on the net. Nice to see the "bo la bo sa" which Ban Kiat posted about also mentioned in that link.
There must be many, many parallels between lannang oe and what happened to Hokkien in Malaysia, particularly its Baba form.
I imagine that amhoanna is also pleased to see all this. Long live pidgins and creoles
!Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
Oh, it's just dawned on me that the "mtan" is the same person as tanbankiat.SimL wrote:Nice to see the "bo la bo sa" which Ban Kiat posted about also mentioned in that link.
Sorry! You say so yourself when you posted the link. Silly of me!
Yes, it's really a strange feeling when one goes back and sees something which didn't make any sense in the past, because one didn't have some specific knowledge, and then have it make sense many years later.
Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
Amazing, we missed his post and found it a yr later, courtesy of F-Spy.
So that was Michael Tan? A great writer -- I've read a lot of his essays. He had a blog up at http://pinoykasi.homestead.com/ but it's been down for some time.
So that was Michael Tan? A great writer -- I've read a lot of his essays. He had a blog up at http://pinoykasi.homestead.com/ but it's been down for some time.
Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
Sim -
The parallels are definitely interesting. My limited experience has been that the Hokkien spoken in the Phils is a bit less creolized than even Klang or Melaka Hokkien. Penang Hokkien is on its own planet.
F-Spy and all -
In response not to FSpy, but to the essay he linked to... I'd like to point out that Minnan is not a native term, but rather a Mandarin term. Since all languages are or should be equal, Mandarin terms are no more correct than terms in other languages. Minnan may be more correct than "Hokkien" in the sense that it's more specific -- it basically means Southern Hokkien. The Hokkien term "Banlam" can be used instead... It means not "south of the Ban River", but rather "the southern part of the province named Ban", or "Southern Hokkien".
Interesting that the Cantonese are regarded as "hiongchin". By the same token, isn't Mandarin just another hiongchin language, official or not? "Gongxi facai" is not a Lannang saying at all, but rather a hiongchin saying... May the Lannang stay strong in their language, and treat all others as equals...
The parallels are definitely interesting. My limited experience has been that the Hokkien spoken in the Phils is a bit less creolized than even Klang or Melaka Hokkien. Penang Hokkien is on its own planet.
F-Spy and all -
In response not to FSpy, but to the essay he linked to... I'd like to point out that Minnan is not a native term, but rather a Mandarin term. Since all languages are or should be equal, Mandarin terms are no more correct than terms in other languages. Minnan may be more correct than "Hokkien" in the sense that it's more specific -- it basically means Southern Hokkien. The Hokkien term "Banlam" can be used instead... It means not "south of the Ban River", but rather "the southern part of the province named Ban", or "Southern Hokkien".
Interesting that the Cantonese are regarded as "hiongchin". By the same token, isn't Mandarin just another hiongchin language, official or not? "Gongxi facai" is not a Lannang saying at all, but rather a hiongchin saying... May the Lannang stay strong in their language, and treat all others as equals...
Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
Is that "Kiong-hí hoat-châi"? I think my teacher taught me instead "Sin-nî hoat-châi"...amhoanna wrote:Interesting that the Cantonese are regarded as "hiongchin". By the same token, isn't Mandarin just another hiongchin language, official or not? "Gongxi facai" is not a Lannang saying at all, but rather a hiongchin saying...
Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
Hi FutureSpy,
In my youth in Penang, "Kiong-hí hoat-châi" was the most normal thing said during Chinese New Year, in my extended family.
In my youth in Penang, "Kiong-hí hoat-châi" was the most normal thing said during Chinese New Year, in my extended family.