Hokkien words in Thai

[niuc]

Amhoanna, I am impressed with your Malay! How did you learn it? Sim is originally from Penang (Malaysia) and I grew up in Indonesia, so it is natural for us to know Malay/Indonesian. In fact it is more common for Chinese in Indonesia to be fluent in Indonesian but know nothing about any Chinese languages.

Thanks for the info. I searched that impressive dictionary using 蟬, thinking that it might list "i5" as another reading. Apparently it has it as 蛦, but zdic.net lists 蛦 = 山鸡, and strangely enough 螗蛦 = 螗蜩
= 一种较小的蝉 [ 结果来源于: http://tool.httpcn.com/Html/Word/231/454596231256.shtml ]. So indeed this TLJ can mean (small) cicada! Thanks! And since you mention Kimbn̂g (Kim1-mng5) 金門, in fact I am 金門人 (paternal, maternal 同安). I visited Taiwan but not yet Kim-mng (or Mainland China), hopefully I will. About Teochew in Taiwan, if not mistaken there is a place named 潮州 in Taiwan, right? Was it established by Teochews from Guandong province?

Ly2 cue3 Hue1-ki5-lang5 u7 sim2-mi8 kam2-siong2? ASEAN indeed is diverse, and it seems will remain that way. Unfortunately Hokkien is dying in Singapore and many parts of ASEAN. Hopefully it will grow stronger (or at least remain alive) in Penang, Medan, Bagan etc... As I am not a businessman, I can't comment much, but based on my limited experience, I think Hokkien networks are getting Mandarinized... Hopefully I am wrong.

[Ah-bin]

Far be it from me to comment on anything that happened more than a hundred li from the sea. But I don't think Mandarin's got anything to do with it. From what I know, the Chinese loanwords in Thai are "historically parallel" to what we find in other Tai-Kadai and Hmong-Mien languages in SW and S China. We might be talking about a time-depth of over 2000 years.

Ah, I assumed the "land-based loans" you were talking about were fairly recent in origin, perhaps brought in by the Yunnanese Muslims from the north. But you were referring to the really old Sinitic loanwords. I'm interested in these, because I think I can basically find out where, if not exactly when, some of these words were borrowed into the languages that became Thai and Lao. I have to check some of the Northern Tai languages like Yay first before making a conclusion.

It's interesting that Lao people didn't seem to make the connection between Yunnanese and Teochius as being "Chinese" - I recall they had two separate names for them. I might be wrong but I think "Haw" was the general term for migrant Chinese from Yunnan (Muslim or otherwise), whereas (I am more sure about this) "Chin" was the term for the Chinese who came upriver from Siam. When I went to Laos people saw me speaking in Mandarin to Chinese, and when I told them in Lao that I was Chinese, they didn't bat an eyelid.

Thanks for the link too. Li Fang-kuei did some great work and I have quite a few of his books.

[amhoanna]

Niuc, I stayed in KL for six weeks one year. I'll say this, Malay is easier than Holo. Coè Hoekî lâng ho͘ⁿh... Goá cin sukah "hiòng saipêng kiâⁿ", he sī ciàⁿkáng ê "Hoekî'ákiáⁿ simlí", maybe that's why I'm trying to go to Padang and Bengkulu But the Caribbean and South America, that's the Bíciu that I really suliām.

Tio̍h, Tiôciu, Taiwan, was probably founded by Teochews. A couple of scholars pointed out that that's one area of Taiwan where there are lots of 三山国王 temples but few or no Hakka, not now, not ever. Probably a good sign that a lot of the people there are Hokkienized Teochew, alongside Hokkiens and Hokkienized Austronesians. What's strange is that Teochew didn't leave much of a mark on Taiwanese Holo. But there was one guy who went the Hûnlîm cngkha to do fieldwork and heard little kids chanting a Teochew nursery rhyme full of Teochew words that the grown-ups thought were just nonsense.

Ah Bin, it's interesting that the Laos didn't bat an eyelid. Lứ sī ângmo͘ ê, tio̍h bô? I like to tell Vietnamese people (in pidgin VNese), "Me Tàu, but me not Hoà."

[amhoanna]

OK, I found the paper I was talking about:

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199 ... on-to.html

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article- ... ional.html

Looks like the full paper isn't available for free anymore, but some of the juicier parts are on display anyway. This part is great:

Along that 1,000 kilometer-long seaboard have resided for millennia a string of ethnic minorities--principally the Hokkien, Cantonese, Hainanese, Hakka, and Taechiu--that have been gradually but never fully absorbed into the dominant Han culture. It is only in the past century that the cultural distinctions between the region's various ethnic groups, most readily distinguishable in terms of locale and dialect, have been sharply attenuated under the pressures of Chinese nationalism, Communist ideology, and rampant industrialization.
...
As one early nineteenth-century Western observer noted, "[The inhabitants of] Chaou-chow-foo, the most eastern department of Canton province, ... are, in general, mean, uncleanly, avaricious, but affable and fond of strangers.... Being neighbours to the inhabitants of Fuhkeen, the dialects of the two people are very similar, but in their manners there is a great difference. This dissimilarity in their customs, joined to the similarity of their pursuits, has given rise to considerable rivalry, which frequently results in open hostility. But the Fuhkeen men have gained the ascendency, and use all their influence to destroy the trade of their competitors" (Gutzlaff 1834, pp. 84-85).

I knew a senglílâng in L.A. who was Tâng'oaⁿ lâng, but from Saigon. He told me, "The Teochews, they've got no conscience. Thâilâng pànghớ ûnná khùn ē lo̍hbîn! All the pirates in Southeast Asia are Teochew!"

[niuc]

Hi Amhoanna

Niuc, I stayed in KL for six weeks one year. I'll say this, Malay is easier than Holo.

I see... no wonder! Yes, Malay (including Indonesian) is very easy to master. The most difficult part is affixes, but most of the time they can be dropped and the sentence is still understandable. Some Indonesians went on pilgrimage to Holy Land (Israel & Palestine), where their tour guide was a Jew who spoke fluent Indonesian. When asked on how long he took to master it, he said three months!

Coè Hoekî lâng ho͘ⁿh... Goá cin sukah "hiòng saipêng kiâⁿ", he sī ciàⁿkáng ê "Hoekî'ákiáⁿ simlí", maybe that's why I'm trying to go to Padang and Bengkulu But the Caribbean and South America, that's the Bíciu that I really suliām.

Guan5-lai5 si7-an1-ni1 a0! Ly2 cin1-cia*3-hok4-khi3, u7-thang1 khy3-hia4-cue7-sor2-cai7 chit4-tho5, cia*5-him1-sian7 ly0. io4-ly2 ing1-kai1 khia7-Ka1-ciu1, a4-si7-ian5-Thai3-ping5-iu*5 e5-sia*5-chi7, tio8 bo0? Beside Padang and Bengkulu, I think you will be interested to visit Nias and Mentawai islands. But I have never visited all those places yet.

Tio̍h, Tiôciu, Taiwan, was probably founded by Teochews. A couple of scholars pointed out that that's one area of Taiwan where there are lots of 三山国王 temples but few or no Hakka, not now, not ever.

Thanks for the info. I had never heard of 三山国王 before, so I googled and found out that he's a deity worshipped mainly by Teochew & Hakka people.

Probably a good sign that a lot of the people there are Hokkienized Teochew, alongside Hokkiens and Hokkienized Austronesians. What's strange is that Teochew didn't leave much of a mark on Taiwanese Holo. But there was one guy who went the Hûnlîm cngkha to do fieldwork and heard little kids chanting a Teochew nursery rhyme full of Teochew words that the grown-ups thought were just nonsense.

I see... so even Teochew descendants there do not know the meaning of the nursery rhyme anymore... may be they were much smaller in number, so assimilated into the majority? There were/are minorities of Teochew, Hainanese, Foochow, Hakka and even Shanghainese in Bagansiapiapi, naturally they speak Bagan Hokkien fluently. From what I know, their languages have no impact on Bagan-ue, and actually neither other Hokkien variants such as Kim1-mng5-ue7 & Cin3-kang1-ue7 there.

I knew a senglílâng in L.A. who was Tâng'oaⁿ lâng, but from Saigon. He told me, "The Teochews, they've got no conscience. Thâilâng pànghớ ûnná khùn ē lo̍hbîn! All the pirates in Southeast Asia are Teochew!"

Tâng'oaⁿ lâng from Vietnam? This reminds me of the story about gun2-gua7-ma8 e5-sio2-ber7 who (dunno how) went to An1-lam5 and no news after WW2. The sentence quoted indeed sounds very Tang5-ua*1-ue7, especially I love "ûnná" (my version is un2-na2), almost never heard that word nowadays!
The pirate thing, just his bias, right?

[amhoanna]

Cûnnî tī Panamá, ū lâng mn̄g goá siōng sukah Hoekîkok tó ci̍t ê siâⁿchī, goá siūⁿ ci̍t ē'á liáu'āu kóng, "Honolulu", nn̄g ê lâng cū ánne chiò kah cin sóng, káná ce ū cin cē ìsù!

Lín goāmá ē siómoē sī ùi Sumatra khì Oa̍tlâm? Ahsī ùi Tn̂gsoaⁿ khì ê? ... The guy gave an example of the piracy. He said back when the refugees were leaving VN by boat, some groups would run into pirates from Thailand who took whatever they had and killed people in the process. I asked, Well, how do you know those were Teochews? He said, C'mon! Thailand, it's all Teochews!

I read that when the French had Indochina, the Teochews were the only Tn̂glâng that "gave them a hard time." The Hokkiens and the Cantonese kept to themselves and hated trouble. But the French couldn't control the Teochews. The Teochews were mixed in with the Kinh Viets and the Khmers. There was no line between them and the Viets and Khmers, just as there's no line between them and the Siamese. They were everywhere and they didn't care for French law.

They also weren't afraid to mix. Seems like everyone from Saigon and points south, or central Thailand, that I've ever met and asked ... has always been part Viet or Siamese, part Tn̂glâng, and the Tn̂glâng part is probably mostly Teochew. So it's true what the Hakkas say: when Teochews (and Hokkiens) leave China, they leave China like they mean it.

[niuc]

Hmmm, m7-cai1 Honolulu u7-sim2-mi8 ki5-tha*1-e5-i3-sy3 hor7-lin2 chio3-ka4-hia4-song2 , m7-ku2 siong1-sin3 Ha7-ui1-i5 tia*7-tio8-si7-cin1-sui2, cin1-ho2 e7 sor2-cai7! Lui1 (ci*5) na7-siu1-u7-kau3, un2-na2 ai3-khy3-hit4-tau1 kia*5-kia*5.

Gun2-i5-po5 (gua7-ma8 e5-sio2-ber7) si7-tui3-Tng5-sua*1 khy3 e0... i1 m7-pat4-lai5-In3-ni5, liam5-gun5-ma5 ma7-m7-pat4 i0.

Interesting info, I never knew Teochews gave French more troubles than Hokkiens and Cantonese there... In Singapore there was rivalry and even riot between Hokkiens and Teochews, which I found wierd upon learning that, as I thought both were Minnan and related in blood (though may be hundreds of years ago). Your previous post also quoted from an article mentioning different customs & rivalry between these two Minnan groups. Do you have more detailed info regarding what different customs & why the rivalry (compared to let say with Cantonese or Hakka)?

I found this: http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiver ... 10241.html
Interesting info about some Hokkiens in Cambodia, also Teochews in Thailand. A Cantonese also mentioned about fierce rivalry between both. There is one from Javanized Hokkien who wrongly said Cantonese was spoken in Medan. It should be Medan Hokkien. Cantonese population is particularly small in Indonesia, compared to other groups, not sure why. I have two friends whose paternal side are Cantonese but they speak Teochew (the Chinese language of Riau archipelago), another one from West Kalimantan but he mostly speaks Hakka, and yet another from South Sulawesi but she knows Mandarin instead!

[amhoanna]

I don't know why Hokkiens and Teochews "had it in" for each other. Sibling rivalry? I once had a Hokkien roommate from Sùcúi (trilingual in b. Jawa, Melayu, English). He said his sītoālâng told him to never trust Tn̂glâng from Sumatra. Possible Hokkien vs Teochew dimension there?

Kóng tio̍h Honolulu, hoānsè hin lāité ê ìsù tō sī kóng "Goá bô beh chap Hoekî lah". Latin Bíciu lâng cin ài thiaⁿ lâng kóng hit khoán oē, iûkî sī Méhikō lâng, Panamá lâng, Kúbā lâng, Benesoélā lâng, in ē thiaⁿ kah chiò haihai, simhoe ciâu khui!

Here's an interesting story in Mandarin about how Indonesians tend to think of Teochew almost as a bumi language, "bahasa Pontianak", spoken only in Pontianak and nowhere else, least of all outside Indonesia: http://www.ispeakmin.com/bbs/redirect.p ... nextoldset ... Probably belongs in a new or resurrected thread.

[niuc]

Sibling rivalry? Hmmm, may be! Come to think about it, more closely related groups usually either had/have better solidarity or worse enmity, e.g. Jews & Arabs, Chinese & Japanese, Javanese & Sundanese, Portugese & Spanish, etc...

We call Surabaya 泗水 Sy3-sui2. Btw, Indonesians usually don't like to hear people call their language (Bahasa Indonesia) as "Melayu". Your friend is not alone, a lot of Chinese from Java (majority Hokkien but also Teochew, Hakka, etc) don't like Chinese from Sumatra or Kalimantan. I believe this is due to something like "baba vs sinkheh". Chinese in Java usually have been javanized or sundanized, e.g. batik is an icon of indigenous Javanese culture, but the well known batik brand "Batik Keris" is owned by javanized Chinese. On the other side, Chinese from Sumatra or Kalimantan usually still speak Chinese languages (Hokkien, Teochew, Hakka, etc) and preserve more Chinese customs. Many Indonesian Chinese are wary of Medan Chinese, because the latter are perceived as excelling in business but also more cunning. However, not sure why, a few Chinese from Jakarta told me that they disliked Pontianak Chinese more.

About Teochew as a "pribumi" (bumi in Indonesian stricly means earth/ground, not native) language, may be only among pribumi (indigenous tribes) around Pontianak, as the city has Teochew majority, but I doubt they think of it as a pribumi language. Medan Hokkien is also called bahasa Medan, Bagan-ue is called Bahasa Bagan, because Chinese are majority in these places (at least in respective downtown). But pribumi in Sumatra never think of Bahasa Medan or Bahasa Bagan as a pribumi language. Palembang (Ku7-kang2) Chinese usually can speak Hokkien or Mandarin, but neither is called Bahasa Palembang, because the term is reserved for Palembang variant of Malay, and Chinese are not majority there.

Guan5-lai5 si7-an1-ni1... ti7 Honolulu ai3-tok8-lip8 e5 lang5 cue7 bo0? Ka4 Bi2-kok4 (Hue1-ki5-kok4) tui3-ke8 e5 tia*7-tio8-ka3-i3-thia*1 cit4-khuan2-ue7 e5 ma0!
Kong2-tio8 Méhikō, 墨西哥 Bik8-se1-ko1, pe8-ue7 thak8 Bak8-sai1-ko1, cue3-gin2-a8 hit4-cun7 tio8-kam2-ka4 cin1-ki5-kuai3 an3-cua2 u7 kok8-ka1 mia*5-kio3 Bak8-sai2-ko1 目屎膏!

[amhoanna]

Kūkáng. What a great name for a city.

The story about "bahasa Pontianak" surprised me too, the part where the customs officials give people a hard time if they hear them speaking Mandarin, but give them service with a smile if they hear them speaking Teochew. I wonder how "bahasa Medan" or "bahasa Bagan" would do.

Kóng khí Ha'oái'ī ìsù tō sī kóng, "Goá bô ài chap lah, mài hō͘ goá tiâu tī Bíkok tāilio̍k tō hó a." Ah m̄ koh kóng sī ánne kóng, khêngsi̍t goá pēng m̄ sī tùi Hoekî tāilio̍k hiahni̍h bô cênggī. Taⁿ tī Ha'oái'ī bô kúi ê lâng beh to̍kli̍p. Gō͘ca̍p tang āu tō bô tiāⁿtio̍h ah. Btw, thanks for using "tùike̍h". That's a new word for me.