Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the field

[SimL]

"Kài" and "·a" are Taiwanisms...

Great! Keep using them, and we can all learn something .

Quick note about "Saigon" before battery death. Why 西貢 in kanji? I think Hokkien or more likely Teochew was the language used for the Sinicization of this VNmese place name...

Oh, I just used kanji because I have a vague idea that one should use as much kanji as possible. I think I found the kanji by trying to read the Chinese Wikipedia article on (what is now) Ho Chi Minh City. (The article says "原名「西貢」（越：柴棍(Sài Gòn)），...".). Once I spotted these characters, I pounced on them, and didn't think about the pronunciation of these characters in Hokkien - because my character recognition is to poor (for Mandarin even, much less Hokkien), the idea of doing that didn't even occur to me. However, I checked on the Hokkien pronunciation of these, and perhaps in this case they aren't too bad(?): 西 has a pronunciation "sai1", and 貢 has a pronunciation "kong3".

[SimL]

I *think* PgHk has "uat8" meaning "to turn", as in "uat8 lai5 uat8 khi3" (= "to turn here and there, to travel in a zigzag path"). This one is also interesting in that "uat8-lai5 uat8-khi3" - i.e. with tone sandhi on "uat" - also sounds ok to me, though the first sounds more natural.

Uat is also used as "uat tao" to mean turn (your) head, but not to mean path only.
Sometimes we say "huan lai" （返來？）to mean come back or "huan k'i" （返去？）

Thanks siamiwako. The weird thing is that I asked my parents about "uat8 lai5 uat8 khi3" and they claim that they don't know it in either of their variants (Northern Malayan and Southern Malayan). No idea where I got it from!

I found my phrase in Douglas, so at least I know that I didn't make it up!

Douglas p350: "oat-kè-lâi, oat-kè-kì, to wind back and forwards, as a road. oat-lâi, oat-kì, id."

Well, I guess one never knows. Perhaps I heard someone who speaks another variant use it a number of times, and just picked it up without realising that it isn't current in Penang Hokkien. Mark or Andrew, do either of you know this phrase (in PgHk, or in any of the varieties you know)?

The character given in the "character-enriched" Douglas looks like a 穴 on the top with a 乚 underneath. It could also be a variant or slightly distored way of writing 穵 (this last might be because the character is being used as a "sound loan").

I've been putting a lot of work into investigating the "names of the radicals" in Hokkien. Hope to post the results of this at the end of the week.

[amhoanna]

Oh, I just used kanji because I have a vague idea that one should use as much kanji as possible.

I only left that last comment b/c it kind of surprised me that Siamiwako and other people from Zamboanga call Saigon "Sekòng".

The 柴棍 etymology is interesting. I'd be surprised if it's actually true.

Personally, I prefer the Khmer name "Prey Nokor" to the name "Saigon". Strange but true: Google Maps (in some languages) calls the city Prey Nokor. No idea how that happened. Pretty cool, though. It's possible that 9 out of 10 Saigonese have never even heard the name Prey Nokor.

Prey Nokor means JUNGLE TOWN. Now y'all know why I like the name Prey Nokor.

[haroldmanila]

Hi guys!

I just read siamiwako’s post last Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:04 am

Bantay* - Really (e.g. Ke kh'a bantay kui 價錢真貴)
Sauli - Return (e.g. Ch'ia di jiong zuai sauli t'o-i 請你把這些還給他)
Pala - Pay (e.g. Di wu pala beh? 你付錢了沒有？)
Pag - If (e.g. Pag ts'eh bo mi kia 如果沒找到東西)
Din - Also (e.g. Gua buei bo din 我也沒買到)



As a Filipino-Chinese grew here in Manila Philippines.
I could explain/translate the best that I can with the words above.

Bantay – very ( Philippine- hookien )
Sauli – to return ( purely tagalog, just adopted by chinoys ( Chinese-Filipino) to their
hokkien usage)
pala – to pay ( Philippine- hookien )
pag – if ( another pure tagalog adopted in hokkien usage )
din – also ( another pure tagalog adopted in hokkien usage )


Regarding the usage of hokkien here, I can safely say that probably 90% chinoys age 30 years old and above are hokkien speaking. In Manila or in the province you can meet them especially in major cities including the province. Mainland chinese that came here and want to stay or do business here in the philippines must learn how to speak hokkien.

[amhoanna]

Thanks, Harold. The last sentence esp. is real interesting. The Mainland Chinese didn't even learn Hokkien when they went to Taiwan, in general.

[haroldmanila]

I appreciate the info. But what I mean is even the Mainland Chinese that came here in Manila that speaks only mandarin and doesn't know any hokkien must try to learn Hokkien because it is the chinese medium that is used here in the Philippines. I have encountered lots of Mainland here in Baclaran ( a very prospective place for business ) Metro Manila, when I talked to them in Hokkien they don't understand me, naturally I explained to them that they must try to learn Hokkien, and true enough I also encountered a lot of Mainland doing business there and have adopted to speak hokkien. Almost 80% to 90% of the tenants in the malls of Baclaran came from Mainland, and aside from learning Hokkien they also learned Tagalog. When I pass there every other day I would hear them talking in Hokkien seldom Mandarin.

[ezinemart]

e magazine,online magazine store,star magazine,health magazine,life magazine

[amhoanna]

Sounds like a Hoklophone dream come true, Harold.

[haroldmanila]

Hoklophone?

[amhoanna]

= Hokkien speaker or Hoklo speaker

Anglophone, Tagalophone, Hispanophone, Hoklophone, etc.

Oh and hey, on the mystery of the word "bantay" that doesn't come from Tagalog but doesn't seem to be native to Hokkien either. I came across the word "bantay" in an Ilokano wordlist, it means MOUNTAIN. It makes sense that it could've been borrowed into Hokkien as MANY. I wonder if the same word exists in Pangasinan.

There used to be strong ties btw southern Hokkien (the region) and Ilokos and the Lingayen area, right? And there was the pirate Lim Hong, etc...