Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the field

[siamiwako]

I think "tuíⁿlải" is 回來, and I'd guess from the context that "Sãigòng" is 西貢.

Sadly "cèngsiỏng" is one of the "educated words" which I didn't know in Hokkien (well, the positive side is I know it now). Before that, I would have said "nO2-mə2" (if in a rough part of Penang, and "nO2-məl2" in a less rough part of Penang). But I'm glad to know the "proper" Hokkien word .

I see, 鄧來. We say "wat lai". 西貢 is " se kong".
What's "cèngsiỏng"? 正常？？

[SimL]

What's "cèngsiỏng"? 正常？？

Well, I'm only going by the Mandarin meaning, and amhoanna's context, but I interpreted it as meaning "normal".

My rendition into English of "Címmá íkeng tuíⁿlải Sãigòng ·a, toà cia KURIPOT tọ kài cèngsiỏng, bián kiaⁿ pháiⁿsè" is (rendered rather literally by intention):

"Now (I've) already come back (to) Saigon [·a], at here (being) stingy [tọ kài] (is) normal, (so I) don't have to be worried (about) feeling bad (about it)".

So, the two bits I am still unsure of are the "·a" after "Saigon", and the "tọ kài".

Perhaps amhoanna (or someone else) can tell me...

I see, 鄧來. We say "wat lai".

I'm surprised that the character-version of the Douglas gives 轉 for "tng2"/"tuiN2". Douglas himself claims that "tng2"/"tuiN2" is the colloquial pronunciation of "R: tsoán, to turn; to transfer".

I've never heard of this "tsoán". I used to think that 轉 corresponded to Hokkien "tsoan7" (= "to twist"). But in the character-version of the Douglas, this is given as 撰. However, perhaps there was some doubt about this character, because it's not written in the same very nice calligraphy as all the other characters, but seems to have been added later, with a pen rather than a brush.

[niuc]

Sim, the "·a" after "Saigon" is the same as 了 liáu in Penang usage. The "tọ kài" is the same as "tō kaì", tō is parallel to 就, and kaì means very (we usually use 真 cin). So: "Now (I've) already come back (to) Saigon, at here (being) stingy is very/indeed normal, (so I) don't have to be worried (about) feeling bad (about it)". Amhoanna, please correct me if I am wrong.

Siamiwako, your 鄧 in 鄧來 is using its Mandarin sound, right? Your variant really say "wat lai" (which tone) for "going back"? In my variant 'uat' (tone 4) means to go to another place (not the destination) for a shortwhile during a trip. Yes, cèngsiỏng is 正常.

Sim, indeed 轉 cuán/tsoán is the TLJ for "tng2"/"tuiN2" too, not only in Douglas' but also in 台文-華文線頂辭典 and 當代泉州音字彙 (and I believe many more). I think this is logical, from the meaning and also the same tone and probably sound-shift. All those dictionaries also list 撰 as cuān/tsoān.

Amhoanna, interesting to know that Ilokanos are regarded as stingy. I used to have impression that Filipinos were party-lovers and big-spenders.

[SimL]

Hi niuc,

Many thanks .

I *think* PgHk has "uat8" meaning "to turn", as in "uat8 lai5 uat8 khi3" (= "to turn here and there, to travel in a zigzag path"). This one is also interesting in that "uat8-lai5 uat8-khi3" - i.e. with tone sandhi on "uat" - also sounds ok to me, though the first sounds more natural.

[siamiwako]

Siamiwako, your 鄧 in 鄧來 is using its Mandarin sound, right? Your variant really say "wat lai" (which tone) for "going back"? In my variant 'uat' (tone 4) means to go to another place (not the destination) for a shortwhile during a trip. Yes, cèngsiỏng is 正常.

Sim, indeed 轉 cuán/tsoán is the TLJ for "tng2"/"tuiN2" too, not only in Douglas' but also in 台文-華文線頂辭典 and 當代泉州音字彙 (and I believe many more). I think this is logical, from the meaning and also the same tone and probably sound-shift. All those dictionaries also list 撰 as cuān/tsoān.

Yes, mandarin pronunciation.
Tng, I've heard this used in "tng tua" to mean adolescence.

[siamiwako]

I *think* PgHk has "uat8" meaning "to turn", as in "uat8 lai5 uat8 khi3" (= "to turn here and there, to travel in a zigzag path"). This one is also interesting in that "uat8-lai5 uat8-khi3" - i.e. with tone sandhi on "uat" - also sounds ok to me, though the first sounds more natural.

Uat is also used as "uat tao" to mean turn (your) head, but not to mean path only.
Sometimes we say "huan lai" （返來？）to mean come back or "huan k'i" （返去？）

[amhoanna]

Cool to see so much discussion here again. Yeah, U guys nailed it (my sentence).

"Kài" and "·a" are Taiwanisms...

Oạtthảu in TW means TO LOOK BACK... Oạt is also the word for TO TURN (LEFT/RIGHT).

Tuíⁿtoạlảng is commonly used, it means TO COME OF AGE, TO BECOME A GROWN-UP. I and most TWnese use the tńg pronunciation too, I just write -uiⁿ b/c it seems cool to me, and it's also the "more original" variant.

Pretty bad, talking behind someone else's back.

Talking about myself lah, technically!!

Yeah, I think Pinoys, except Ilokanos, go by the Latin philosophy of spending money. If U've got it, use it. That explains why there's Mang Inasal and other chain restaurants everywhere even though the prices
are actually more in scale with TWnese, not Phils, wages.

And SimL, that good neighborhood / bad neighborhood thing is funny!

[amhoanna]

Quick note about "Saigon" before battery death. Why 西貢 in kanji? I think Hokkien or more likely Teochew was the language used for the Sinicization of this VNmese place name...

[SimL]

I *think* PgHk has "uat8" meaning "to turn", as in "uat8 lai5 uat8 khi3" (= "to turn here and there, to travel in a zigzag path"). This one is also interesting in that "uat8-lai5 uat8-khi3" - i.e. with tone sandhi on "uat" - also sounds ok to me, though the first sounds more natural.

Uat is also used as "uat tao" to mean turn (your) head, but not to mean path only.
Sometimes we say "huan lai" （返來？）to mean come back or "huan k'i" （返去？）

Thanks siamiwako. The weird thing is that I asked my parents about "uat8 lai5 uat8 khi3" and they claim that they don't know it in either of their variants (Northern Malayan and Southern Malayan). No idea where I got it from!

[SimL]

...

Pretty bad, talking behind someone else's back.

Talking about myself lah, technically!!

I think siamiwako meant only that it was bad for those shop people to be talking about *you* being stingy...

And SimL, that good neighborhood / bad neighborhood thing is funny!

Haha! Thanks - you obviously have a good feeling for small differences in tone and accent .