Off topic question?

[drunk_on_tea]

The Vietnamese word that equates the Chinese word for Yue which means "beyond or surpass" is NOT viet...but vuot.
Vuot also means beyond or surpass and Viet has no other definition according to my knowledge except to connotate the ethnicity or ancestry of the peoples of Viet Nam.
Thus, the Cantonese word Yuet is closer to the word Viet than is the word Yue of Mandarin. This relation is not coincidental since ancient Vietnamese came from the Guandong and Guangxi area.
In terms of the word Yue(t) only, it is probably a Vietnamese word loaned to Cantonese and then Mandarin.

[charlene]

Wow... indeed this is a heated debate. I think that both sides have great arguments. But i would have to say that i think the Chinese influenced the Vietnamese. The facts that have been presented are more in favor of the Chinese. First of all, I'm not too sure if the Viet really had "chicken scratch" as their first form of writing system but it is factual that the Vietnamese did use Chinese characters as their form of writing systems for many years. Many words in viet is very closely related to Chinese as well. But later on, during the French invasion, their form of writing has influenced the Viet, and yet they changed their writing systems. No longer writing with Chinese characters but a form of writing similar to Eng/French (letters, no longer using symbols). If the Vietnamese really did favor their own writting system, why is it that they change while under authority of another? Not to say that they are traitors or that they are weak and can't defend themselves, but if they really did honor their writing system and wanted it to influence and remain the country's offical writing system, they would not change it in the first place but instead have their "writing system" evolve... like that of the chinese language and writing system. Also, when there was a debate that the Chinese conquered the Vietnamese, the chinese destroy evidence of the vietnamese writing system and the millions of vietnamese could prove that, why didn't they keep their Viet writing and speaking system going on? Even though they were under control they could have still spoke the "original Vietnamese" language instead of borrowing from the Chinese.

[charlene]

Wow... indeed this is a heated debate. I think that both sides have great arguments. But i would have to say that i think the Chinese influenced the Vietnamese. The facts that have been presented are more in favor of the Chinese. First of all, I'm not too sure if the Viet really had "chicken scratch" as their first form of writing system but it is factual that the Vietnamese did use Chinese characters as their form of writing systems for many years. Many words in viet is very closely related to Chinese as well. But later on, during the French invasion, their form of writing has influenced the Viet, and yet they changed their writing systems. No longer writing with Chinese characters but a form of writing similar to Eng/French (letters, no longer using symbols). If the Vietnamese really did favor their own writting system, why is it that they change while under authority of another? Not to say that they are traitors or that they are weak and can't defend themselves, but if they really did honor their writing system and wanted it to influence and remain the country's offical writing system, they would not change it in the first place but instead have their "writing system" evolve... like that of the chinese language and writing system. Also, when there was a debate that the Chinese conquered the Vietnamese, the chinese destroy evidence of the vietnamese writing system and the millions of vietnamese could prove that, why didn't they keep their Viet writing and speaking system going on? Even though they were under control they could have still spoke the "original Vietnamese" language instead of borrowing from the Chinese.

[%sig%]

[drunk_on_tea]

{Even though they were under control they could have still spoke the "original Vietnamese" language instead of borrowing from the Chinese.}

Charlene, this is the whole point of the debate. What is the "original Vietnamese" language? Despite the history between these two cultures, linguists are now questioning whether or not the basic words that are common between Chinese and Vietnamese can possibly be labeled "loan words." The Vietnamese probably DID keep their language and because it may be a Sino-Tibetan language itself (meaning that, since these two languages are related in the first place, their similarities would of course exist). Past scholars who have been labeling Vietnamese under the Mon-Khmer branch fails to recognize that the commonalities between these languages with Vietnamese may be because of Vietnamese influences. That is why it may be difficult for Vietnamese to hear that their language is consisted of "loaned words" while many words that are truly Vietnamese are also similar to Chinese. Current research upon this subject is completely inadequate and that is why it should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Jean Sebastien]

Well,

I know:
both Chinese and Vietnamese people

saw real dragons and started painting them and using them as symbols...

why searching for difficulty ?!

JS

[K]

dear all...
what is the word in both vietnamese as well as cantonese for "AUTUMN" and "WINTER"...
Much Obliged..
K

[lily]

I dont kno how im trying to find out but there are no websites to help me
if you find any let me know ok? thanks!

[qrasy]

Dragon, I think, is a symbol of Chinese. It comes from the "unification" of some fair Mongoloid tribes, who had their own

totem (ox, bird, snake etc.). You can see that this "oriental dragon" has parts of many animals.

see www.uglychinese.org

By the age of Huang Di (I don't know the timeline, may be it is around 3000 BC), Hua-Xia were formed. The use of "Han"

referring to Chinese came about much later, in the 3rd century BC.
******************************************************************
12,000 B.C. is a strange time for Vietnamese. I think BaiYue either had not reached there or had not been formed. So the

civilization here could be the ancestor of "Khmers" and/or "Malays".
I think Van Lang was formed at about 5th century BC.
YeLang: Ye=Night, Lang=Man, this means "Night Men", a strange meaning. I think this could be a Chinese pronunciation

of "Yerong" (Yerong is a name of a Daic Language found in southern China.)
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Phung Nguyen or Dong Son civilization may not be the ancestors of modern Vietnamese.
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Also, I would like to know how does the 22-characters "worm-script" look like if you have the images.
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About the Chinese words in Vietnamese, the Middle-Chinese ones ("Sino-Vietnamese") are certainly fake since

Vietnamese has existed long before the "Middle-Age" of Chinese, though some Vietnamese words are replaced with this.
Spring: Xuõn; Summer: Hạ; Autumn: Thu; Winter: éụng; Study: Học

Sino-Xenic (Sino-Jp, Sino-Kor, Sino-Viet) words are just loanwords from China.
******************************************************************
Mandarin is not north barbarians' languages "Altaic" but a form of Chinese influenced by them (Loss of -p, -t, -k, -m, etc.)

HKB gave some wrong points.
School "Xue-Xiao", the "Xue" should have "H-" instead of "X-" and "-K" ending, and "Xiao", the "X-" is somekind of voiced

"H-", which becomes "G-" in Japanese. Ki/Ji, Hi/Xi, Khi/Qi has already merged in Mandarin.
>Japanese should be Gaku-Sei (Remember, Japanese do not have -k, so it becomes -ku)
Glass "an-gang" Cantonese, here I think ng- is missing from "eye". It could be only a dialectical variance from "ngan" (the

Cantonese found here)
>Sino-Japanese is "koku" not "goku".
Sometimes Japanese voice the initial of a word if combined with others.
"Chuu" +"koku"--> "Chuugoku", "San"+"Sen"--> "Sanzen"
The native word for "Country" is "Kuni"
Sword
> "gim" vietnamese --> Ki{e^̣ }m (Mid.Chn.), G{u'}{o'}m (Probably Old C.)
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Modern Number of Vietnamese come not from Sinitic, perhaps it's from Tibeto-Burman.
******************************************************************
I believe that "Việt" means "Axe".
Referring to:
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/tm17/paper459.htm
the pictogram of "Viet" are simply Axe.

In Fact, there is a word "Yue" that means axe, written with "metal" as signify and "Yue" (The same phonetic as Yue

"Pass") as phonetic.
| ã.
------------------- --------------|---
| |
_ _ | .ạ̃
_....--ã**Ằ | .ạ̃
|..ạ̃ .ạ̃

| ã.
---------------- |ẰẰẰẰẰẰẰẰ|ẰẰ
|
_ _ | .ạ̃
_....--ãã"Ằ | .ạ̃
|.ạ̃ .ạ̃
(I tried to draw the axes as well as I could. I hope these would look like what I mean)

[qrasy]

Correction:
For School Japanese uses gaku-en instead, gaku=learn (xue), en=garden (yuan)

[Xarzy]

Well, this is a dead topic. Where is Hung Dao Dai Vuong?