-To some of you, I may be obssessed, and maybe I am. Am I wrong? That's up to the individual to debate... On the revival, it doesn't necessarily mean the entire revival to the way of life, which won't accomodate the standard of living. An example, would be "cannabalism": There was proof that it was done, but will people do it now? Obviously not. There is some evidence on the amount of egalitarianism, and the structure of a matriarchical society (In other words, men might have stayed home during peace time, sewing and taking care of the kids, while the mother went off doing other things). Egalitarianism, is still something that needs working on, in all societies today --something that was destroyed under the Chinese rule, with the acceptance of Confucianism.
Of course you are obsessed. How many Cantonese today want a separate republic? 2? 3? lol.
In fact some people do still practice cannibalism and are not punished as criminals. The last one I heard about was some isolated culture in Malaysia that ate a couple tourists. rofl.
-Mark made his point in the "migrating" of ancient people from one spot back to another. True, it would be a hassle, but why can't it be done? Because people refuse to face the truth and correct the wrongs.
No, you IDIOT! It's because the people living there now have lived there their _whole lives_, if they committed wrongs themselves, then yes, go ahead and correct them, but if it was their ancestors from thousands of years ago, then those wanting compensation should go off and defecate (to put my feelings lightly)
"If I had to give away my home, because it turned out to be someone else's, 'tough luck for me', I'll just find another home."
Also, a little tiny note on that: The Gauls, who were a Gaelic tribe, originally settled the region of modern-day France.
lol. You'll find another home? Sure, I'd like to put THAT to the test. roflmao!
As for Gauls-- Gauls were originally a Celtic (not Gaelic, only stupidity makes people think that all Celts are Gaels) tribe, but then the name came to refer to a Germanic tribe who lived in the region after killing/assimilating the Celts from the area, and now Gall = a word root meaning France or of French origin, eg Gallic as in "Escargot may seem gross to foreigners, but they are deeply rooted in Gallic tradition."
-Another comment I have to make, will be posted on the other thread...
Why are you telling me that?
A Separate Cantonese Republic???
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KP
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
Sum Won:
I have never found a source on the internet regarding the similarites in ancient SEA cultures. Most of what I will tell you comes from the mouth of a college professor. Some examples are the chewing a betel nut, teeth blackening by woman, shamanism/anamism religion, and these huge bronze drums that were found in many different nations of SEA. He also claimed alot of these similarities exist in SE Chinese and Taiwan as well. Of course these are just the words of one man, thats why I am doing my own research as well.
I am currently reading a book called "The Birth of Vietnam". Its a very short book, but gives a fairly good, detailed account of what happened in SE China around Qin and Han Dynasty. You may want to check that out. I believe Amazon.com has a few sample pages on their website.
sfboy:
Scratching your head, spitting? I may not be Chinese, but Vietnamese sure don't base their culture on those things. Most people base their cultures on things like those examples I noted above to Sum Won. Those things can be separated from Han culture. Yea, I agree with what you are saying about Hans and aborigines taking traits and customs from one another, but there are examples that remain only in these regions. It may not be much, but its a start no?
My point is, that most people in here base all knowledge of Asia on what China says. China should be the last place anyone should be looking to learn about ancient aborigine cultures....they were the ones who destroyed it!!! If you insist on looking within China's borders, like someone mentioned earlier, those mountain tribes are probably your best bet.
However, in all honesty, my statement regarding 60% Han, etc. was just a quick unresponsible statement on my part. Those numbers actually come from the Vietnamese Language, which scholars can more accurately state. Fair enough?
I have never found a source on the internet regarding the similarites in ancient SEA cultures. Most of what I will tell you comes from the mouth of a college professor. Some examples are the chewing a betel nut, teeth blackening by woman, shamanism/anamism religion, and these huge bronze drums that were found in many different nations of SEA. He also claimed alot of these similarities exist in SE Chinese and Taiwan as well. Of course these are just the words of one man, thats why I am doing my own research as well.
I am currently reading a book called "The Birth of Vietnam". Its a very short book, but gives a fairly good, detailed account of what happened in SE China around Qin and Han Dynasty. You may want to check that out. I believe Amazon.com has a few sample pages on their website.
sfboy:
Scratching your head, spitting? I may not be Chinese, but Vietnamese sure don't base their culture on those things. Most people base their cultures on things like those examples I noted above to Sum Won. Those things can be separated from Han culture. Yea, I agree with what you are saying about Hans and aborigines taking traits and customs from one another, but there are examples that remain only in these regions. It may not be much, but its a start no?
My point is, that most people in here base all knowledge of Asia on what China says. China should be the last place anyone should be looking to learn about ancient aborigine cultures....they were the ones who destroyed it!!! If you insist on looking within China's borders, like someone mentioned earlier, those mountain tribes are probably your best bet.
However, in all honesty, my statement regarding 60% Han, etc. was just a quick unresponsible statement on my part. Those numbers actually come from the Vietnamese Language, which scholars can more accurately state. Fair enough?
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sfboy
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
KP:
fair enough on the 60/40 part
Regarding what people base their culture on... chewing a betel nut, blackening of teeth by woman. That is what Vietnamese base their culture on? I really don't see a difference between that and cultural tendencies that I mentioned (scratching back of the head during embarassing situations or spitting as a bodily cleansing function) These are of course, not the defining factors of Cantonese culture, I was just listing some examples off the top of my head. What is your definition of culture? I view culture as an integrated system of socially acquired values, beliefs, and rules of conduct which delimit the range of accepted behaviors in any given society of people. According to my definition(which may not be correct) the examples I gave are valid.
You said that most people base their cultures on things like brass drums and eating of betel nuts? I beg to differ because although those things you mentioned are characteristics of cultures, and many people would define their own culture with such prominent traits... culture is better defined by an outsider who is more objective and can notice the subtle differences and actions that a member of the culture would assume to be natural and not a "significant defining trait" of the culture.
One must not neglect the most subtle things, like actions that a certain people subconsciouly perform in certain situations.
Also, religion does not define a culture although it may instigate change in a culture. In fact, many times it is the religion that is transformed when they enter an alien culture to suit the needs of that alien culture. Look at the transformation Buddhism received when it went to East Asia, Christianity in all parts of the world, etc.
fair enough on the 60/40 part
Regarding what people base their culture on... chewing a betel nut, blackening of teeth by woman. That is what Vietnamese base their culture on? I really don't see a difference between that and cultural tendencies that I mentioned (scratching back of the head during embarassing situations or spitting as a bodily cleansing function) These are of course, not the defining factors of Cantonese culture, I was just listing some examples off the top of my head. What is your definition of culture? I view culture as an integrated system of socially acquired values, beliefs, and rules of conduct which delimit the range of accepted behaviors in any given society of people. According to my definition(which may not be correct) the examples I gave are valid.
You said that most people base their cultures on things like brass drums and eating of betel nuts? I beg to differ because although those things you mentioned are characteristics of cultures, and many people would define their own culture with such prominent traits... culture is better defined by an outsider who is more objective and can notice the subtle differences and actions that a member of the culture would assume to be natural and not a "significant defining trait" of the culture.
One must not neglect the most subtle things, like actions that a certain people subconsciouly perform in certain situations.
Also, religion does not define a culture although it may instigate change in a culture. In fact, many times it is the religion that is transformed when they enter an alien culture to suit the needs of that alien culture. Look at the transformation Buddhism received when it went to East Asia, Christianity in all parts of the world, etc.
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KP
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
sfboy:
I agree, my examples are not things one would or should define their culture uopn. However, they are much more unique and defining compared to "scratching your head from embarrassment" or "spitting as a cleansing function". Your examples can be found in just about any culture all around the world. But teeth blackening, betel nut, brass drums, etc. are more specific and are definitely not culture traits one would find in Europe or Africa.
Vietnamese culture is probably even more influenced by Chinese culture than its language is. But there are differences, and when you can correlate those differences with other SEA cultures of the region, especially those who have very little Chinese influence, than you got SOMETHING.
Say you choose a certain "custom". Then you notice that most the Chinese do not practice that "custom", then one should realize that is not a traditional Chinese custom. Then upon research, you realize other SEA cultures share this custom as well. From that simple situation, one can assume that custom is more likely to be an aboriginal custom. Of course, in reality, many other variabses play a part in the whole scheme of things. None the less, its still a start. I mean, when I look at it, I think Vietnamese culture is more similar to Cantonese than say Beijing Culture.
I agree, my examples are not things one would or should define their culture uopn. However, they are much more unique and defining compared to "scratching your head from embarrassment" or "spitting as a cleansing function". Your examples can be found in just about any culture all around the world. But teeth blackening, betel nut, brass drums, etc. are more specific and are definitely not culture traits one would find in Europe or Africa.
Vietnamese culture is probably even more influenced by Chinese culture than its language is. But there are differences, and when you can correlate those differences with other SEA cultures of the region, especially those who have very little Chinese influence, than you got SOMETHING.
Say you choose a certain "custom". Then you notice that most the Chinese do not practice that "custom", then one should realize that is not a traditional Chinese custom. Then upon research, you realize other SEA cultures share this custom as well. From that simple situation, one can assume that custom is more likely to be an aboriginal custom. Of course, in reality, many other variabses play a part in the whole scheme of things. None the less, its still a start. I mean, when I look at it, I think Vietnamese culture is more similar to Cantonese than say Beijing Culture.
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sfboy
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
KP:
-I agree, my examples are not things one would or should define their culture uopn. However, they are much more unique and defining compared to "scratching your head from embarrassment" or "spitting as a cleansing function". Your examples can be found in just about any culture all around the world.
I disagree with this. I would like to see an example of 'scratching your head from embarassment' in just about any culture in the world (outside the East Asian region) I know that Japanese people also do this, (from the Anime characters) possibly because of Chinese influence or it could be just regional similarity.
Chinese, especially rural Cantonese are notorious for spitting in public and this differs from any other people in the situations where it is performed. There is even a common phrase in the language to facilitate its use. leoi1 go3 hau2 seoi2 zoi5 gong2 gwo3 "Spit out the saliva and say it again" As in when somebody says something wrong, they should spit it out and rephrase what they said.
-Say you choose a certain "custom". Then you notice that most the Chinese do not practice that "custom", then one should realize that is not a traditional Chinese custom. Then upon research, you realize other SEA cultures share this custom as well. From that simple situation, one can assume that custom is more likely to be an aboriginal custom. Of course, in reality, many other variabses play a part in the whole scheme of things.
Well said but it could be possible that other Chinese has lost this certain "custom" while the SEA cultures, which were influenced previously by Chinese has retained this practice. Just like language, where Cantonese retains more traits from the Classical Chinese language than do most other Sinitic languages(notably, Mandarin) Look at the Japanese custom of kneeling in front of short tables rather than sitting, is this a native Japanese custom? This is actually the same way people in the Qin-Han era sat, I don't think that you will find any modern Chinese doing this anymore. This is why I argue that it is sometimes difficult to differentiate from what is what.
-I mean, when I look at it, I think Vietnamese culture is more similar to Cantonese than say Beijing Culture.
I agree with this.
-I agree, my examples are not things one would or should define their culture uopn. However, they are much more unique and defining compared to "scratching your head from embarrassment" or "spitting as a cleansing function". Your examples can be found in just about any culture all around the world.
I disagree with this. I would like to see an example of 'scratching your head from embarassment' in just about any culture in the world (outside the East Asian region) I know that Japanese people also do this, (from the Anime characters) possibly because of Chinese influence or it could be just regional similarity.
Chinese, especially rural Cantonese are notorious for spitting in public and this differs from any other people in the situations where it is performed. There is even a common phrase in the language to facilitate its use. leoi1 go3 hau2 seoi2 zoi5 gong2 gwo3 "Spit out the saliva and say it again" As in when somebody says something wrong, they should spit it out and rephrase what they said.
-Say you choose a certain "custom". Then you notice that most the Chinese do not practice that "custom", then one should realize that is not a traditional Chinese custom. Then upon research, you realize other SEA cultures share this custom as well. From that simple situation, one can assume that custom is more likely to be an aboriginal custom. Of course, in reality, many other variabses play a part in the whole scheme of things.
Well said but it could be possible that other Chinese has lost this certain "custom" while the SEA cultures, which were influenced previously by Chinese has retained this practice. Just like language, where Cantonese retains more traits from the Classical Chinese language than do most other Sinitic languages(notably, Mandarin) Look at the Japanese custom of kneeling in front of short tables rather than sitting, is this a native Japanese custom? This is actually the same way people in the Qin-Han era sat, I don't think that you will find any modern Chinese doing this anymore. This is why I argue that it is sometimes difficult to differentiate from what is what.
-I mean, when I look at it, I think Vietnamese culture is more similar to Cantonese than say Beijing Culture.
I agree with this.
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Sum Won
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
Mark:
1. This comes back to the whole sheer numbers, of how many of you tell me to open up my own mind, when most of you fail to see your own hypocracy.
*2. "父債子還" (The same would apply, through countless generations).
3. http://www.housebarra.com/EP/ep04/11difference.html
^ Check out that site, and it's other links --how credible they are depends on how much you trust them...
*This does not mean I put the blame on modern-day Chinese people for killing a culture. For there are some people who can actually learn to appreciate other cultures.
sfboy:
If you look carefully enough at the whole "scratching your head when embarrassed" thing, you'll see that it's present in all. The spitting is usually done by people who're inconsiderate of other people in public, or somehow think it's "sick" to swallow their own phlegm.
KP:
Thanks for the book title. I'll go check it out now...
1. This comes back to the whole sheer numbers, of how many of you tell me to open up my own mind, when most of you fail to see your own hypocracy.
*2. "父債子還" (The same would apply, through countless generations).
3. http://www.housebarra.com/EP/ep04/11difference.html
^ Check out that site, and it's other links --how credible they are depends on how much you trust them...
*This does not mean I put the blame on modern-day Chinese people for killing a culture. For there are some people who can actually learn to appreciate other cultures.
sfboy:
If you look carefully enough at the whole "scratching your head when embarrassed" thing, you'll see that it's present in all. The spitting is usually done by people who're inconsiderate of other people in public, or somehow think it's "sick" to swallow their own phlegm.
KP:
Thanks for the book title. I'll go check it out now...
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KP
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
sfboy:
Ok man. So we both agree that it can be extremely difficult. But don't you think you may being a bit pessimistic? Always looking for arguments so you do not have to look? Instead, should you be looking for arguments that will help you look?
Sum Won:
The few pages I have read have all be very interesting. The author was able to make connections between old Vietnamese folklore and legends that actually coincide with "Chinese" kingdoms. Like the the mythical "Hung Kings" were related to some Chinese kindoms, cant remember that one off the top of my head. I think he said the Au Lac were these same as a kingdom of Ou. Its also written by a westerner, Vietnam War Vet, which adds a twist.
Ok man. So we both agree that it can be extremely difficult. But don't you think you may being a bit pessimistic? Always looking for arguments so you do not have to look? Instead, should you be looking for arguments that will help you look?
Sum Won:
The few pages I have read have all be very interesting. The author was able to make connections between old Vietnamese folklore and legends that actually coincide with "Chinese" kingdoms. Like the the mythical "Hung Kings" were related to some Chinese kindoms, cant remember that one off the top of my head. I think he said the Au Lac were these same as a kingdom of Ou. Its also written by a westerner, Vietnam War Vet, which adds a twist.
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Sum Won
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
KP:
Actually, I stumbled upon a copy of the book at Aiso library, in Monterey, California. I'll try and read it some time, if I have the chance, and thanks for recommending the title
Actually, I stumbled upon a copy of the book at Aiso library, in Monterey, California. I'll try and read it some time, if I have the chance, and thanks for recommending the title
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ANTHONY
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
I HAVE READ ALOT OF YUE MESSAGE. IT DON'T MAKE ANY SENSE.
VIETNAMESE ARE CANTONESE. ASK ANY VIETNAMESE PEOPLE ARE YOU CANTONESE? 100% WILL SAY NO. YOU ARE CRAZY I AM VIETNAMESE!
VIETNAMESE ARE CANTONESE. ASK ANY VIETNAMESE PEOPLE ARE YOU CANTONESE? 100% WILL SAY NO. YOU ARE CRAZY I AM VIETNAMESE!
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Quentin
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
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From Anthony
I HAVE READ ALOT OF YUE MESSAGE. IT DON'T MAKE ANY SENSE.
VIETNAMESE ARE CANTONESE. ASK ANY VIETNAMESE PEOPLE ARE YOU CANTONESE? 100% WILL SAY NO. YOU ARE CRAZY I AM VIETNAMESE!
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Actually up until 1900s the official language of the Kingdom of AnNam was still a Vietnamese Dialect of Chinese. All official documents were written in Han (chinese) scripts but pronounce in Vietnamese Dialect. Vietnamese dialect of Chinese were very similar to Cantonese and Hai Nan dialect.
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From KP
The few pages I have read have all be very interesting. The author was able to make connections between old Vietnamese folklore and legends that actually coincide with "Chinese" kingdoms. Like the the mythical "Hung Kings" were related to some Chinese kindoms, cant remember that one off the top of my head. I think he said the Au Lac were these same as a kingdom of Ou. Its also written by a westerner, Vietnam War Vet, which adds a twist.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The mythical Hung Kings were probably related to the ancient Kingdom of Chu. "Hung" is actually Xiong (
From Anthony
I HAVE READ ALOT OF YUE MESSAGE. IT DON'T MAKE ANY SENSE.
VIETNAMESE ARE CANTONESE. ASK ANY VIETNAMESE PEOPLE ARE YOU CANTONESE? 100% WILL SAY NO. YOU ARE CRAZY I AM VIETNAMESE!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually up until 1900s the official language of the Kingdom of AnNam was still a Vietnamese Dialect of Chinese. All official documents were written in Han (chinese) scripts but pronounce in Vietnamese Dialect. Vietnamese dialect of Chinese were very similar to Cantonese and Hai Nan dialect.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From KP
The few pages I have read have all be very interesting. The author was able to make connections between old Vietnamese folklore and legends that actually coincide with "Chinese" kingdoms. Like the the mythical "Hung Kings" were related to some Chinese kindoms, cant remember that one off the top of my head. I think he said the Au Lac were these same as a kingdom of Ou. Its also written by a westerner, Vietnam War Vet, which adds a twist.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The mythical Hung Kings were probably related to the ancient Kingdom of Chu. "Hung" is actually Xiong (