Vietnamese is sino-tibetan Part 2

[Mark Andrew Williamson]

Vietnamese is not Sino-Tibetan OR Tai-Kadai.

It is probably related to Muong,

It consists of a large Cantonese (?) superstratum imposed on a strong Vietnamese substratum resulting in modern "Sino-Vietnamese" language of Vietnam.

Strong example is the numerals.

Viet-Muong languages (North Mon-Khmer):

Vietnamese

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một hai ba bốn năm sáu bảy tám chín mười

Muong

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mộc hal ba bốn tam kháu bay sám chín mười

May

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moic hal pa pón dâm ráw pậy thám chín mɨèy

Thavung

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muut haal paa póon dam phalủ pih sáam chíin sip

Arem

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muty hei̛ pe puôn dhâm prau pơ thảm chín mươi

East Mon-Khmer languages:

Khmer

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múuey piir bèey bùuen pram pram-múuey pram-py̛l pram-bèey pram-bùuen dap

South Mon-Khmer languages:

Mon

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mòa bả pỏ̤ə po̤n pəso̤n kərao həpo̤h həcham həchit cho̤h

To compare, I will include some Sino-Tibetan languages too.

Middle Chinese

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iêt8 ñzhi6 sâm2 si6 nguo4 lyuk8 tsˈyet7 pwat7 kyəu4 zhyəp7

Classical Tibetan

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gchig gñis gsum bzhi lnga drug bdun brgyad dgu bchu

Tangut

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ləw nɨⁿ sɔ ƚɪr ngghʉ̲̀h tshhiew shɑ ʔyar nggʷɨⁿ ʔyir

Classical Burmese

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tac hnac sùm lè ngà kˈrok hnac hrac kò cˈay

And also, just for good measure, some other Asian languages.

Proto-Tungus

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*ämün *zhör *ilan *dügün *tuñga *ñöngün *nadan *zhapkun *xüjägün *zhuwan

Proto-Yukaghir

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*ərq *kil *yal *yaleql *ekonsh-kumneldh *meldhal *pirskiy *maldhaleql *kildh *kumneldh

Proto-Chukchi-Kamchatkan

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*ennan *ngighaq *ngeghoq *ngeghaq *melhengen *enna-melhengen *ngigha-melhengen *ngegho-melhengen *ngeghaq-melhengen *mengyetken

Ket

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qogd inang doong siing qaang as ons inaem-bynsang-qus qusaem-bynsang-qus quus

Nivkh

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ñi mi ce nə tho ngax ngamg minr ñəñben mxo

Korean

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hana tul set net tasöt yösöt ilgop yödöl ahop yöl

Proto-Ainu

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*siné *tu: *dé *iiné *aski *iihdan *adéhdan *tupédhdan *sinépéhdan *hdan

Proto-Japonic

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*p'tö *p'ta *mit *yöt *itu *mut *nana *yat *kökönö *töwo

(I didn't consider Ryukyuan languages much in this reconstruction, it's just Old Japanese and some Okinawan but not much else like it should be)

Hmong

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ib ob peb plaub tsib rau xyaa yim cuaj kaum

Proto-Tai

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at22 ji:h22/15 sa:m15 si:h22 xè:51 xok44 chet44 pɛ:t11 kao22/51 dzhip44

Some of these look conspicuously close to Sino-Tibetan: Proto-Tai for example closely mirrors Sino-Tibetan numerals.

[qrasy]

If you say that numbers are the most reliable nouns, aren't you saying that Tai-Kadai and Hmong-Mien are sino-Tibetan?
Also, the 6 of Mon-Khmer languages seem to come from Sino-Tibetan **C-ryuk, C is an unknown consonant.
Look at Khmers there are no 6-10 in their language. So probably 6-10 come from Sino-Tibetan.
And Vietnamese 3 are also Miao-Yao. If you relate these, do you assume that they are all
Furthermore, a good example is Pou-Ma, which takes Sino-Tibetan 1-10 as their language.

The main stratum of Vietnamese are not Chinese/Cantonese but Viet-Muong itself. Sino-Vietnamese are just loanwords, and it's already been stated in this topic several times.

[Mark Andrew Williamson]

If you say that numbers are the most reliable nouns, aren't you saying that Tai-Kadai and Hmong-Mien are sino-Tibetan?

I don't know about Hmong-Mien, that is difficult to say, but I think yes, there is a "Sino-Tai" family which is indicated in other ways as well.

Also, the 6 of Mon-Khmer languages seem to come from Sino-Tibetan **C-ryuk, C is an unknown consonant.

sáu, kháu, ráw, phalủ, prau, (Khmer uses a base-5 number system), kərao, vs Cryuk? I see little if any resemblance.

Look at Khmers there are no 6-10 in their language. So probably 6-10 come from Sino-Tibetan.

You are obviously not very familiar with linguistics. Different languages often use different counting systems. Sakhalin Ainu uses a base 20 system, in the same vein Khmer uses a base-5 system. This doesn't say anything about Khmer having loans from Sino-Tibetan.

And Vietnamese 3 are also Miao-Yao. If you relate these, do you assume that they are all

Again, I just don't see the resemblance. And a single, monosyllabic number which seems to resemble another one distantly is easily a chance resemblance, until you get to three or so similar digits which indicates a possible relationship.

Furthermore, a good example is Pou-Ma, which takes Sino-Tibetan 1-10 as their language.

Puyuma uses, iirc, a native counting system. Where are you getting this data?

The main stratum of Vietnamese are not Chinese/Cantonese but Viet-Muong itself. Sino-Vietnamese are just loanwords, and it's already been stated in this topic several times.

That's what "superstratum" means. It indicates that it is foreign, and more recent, but that it constitutes a larger part of the entire vocabulary than the native vocabulary. Notice the "strong" Vietnamese substratum, indicating that it's not like French where the Gaulish substratum is only a few words, but that instead it's strong and has a large presence.

[qrasy]

I don't know about Hmong-Mien, that is difficult to say, but I think yes, there is a "Sino-Tai" family which is indicated in other ways as well.
There are some who make a family of "Tai-Kadai+Hmong-Mien+Sino+Tibetan", and some say that this is outdated. Or are you thinking this as one of "Sino-Xenic" languages?

sáu, kháu, ráw, phalủ, prau, (Khmer uses a base-5 number system), kərao, vs Cryuk? I see little if any resemblance.
I see *phraw, and from the tone we can guess that there are some glots here. It comes to be *phrawʔ
My source: Alves_Vietnamese_Vietic_Monkhmer.pdf of http://www.geocities.com/malves98/publications.html , page 6 and 11.

You are obviously not very familiar with linguistics. Different languages often use different counting systems. Sakhalin Ainu uses a base 20 system, in the same vein Khmer uses a base-5 system. This doesn't say anything about Khmer having loans from Sino-Tibetan.
But I know that in Korean there are native-20. I also know that there are some languages that has different counting system from Chinese, especially those which have the proper word for '100.000' and '20' (Lao).
I'm not saying that there are no counting system other than 10. Of course they may have different system, they are even very distant to each other and belonging to different family.
I'm only saying that if there were really proto-Mon-Khmer, it should either have 5-counting system or

10-counting system. If you have 10, then it's impossible for you to have 5 in the same language. If there are more, it's not from Proto-Mon-Khmer (or can you suggest how it possibly was?)

And Vietnamese 3 are also Miao-Yao. If you relate these, do you assume that they are all

Again, I just don't see the resemblance. And a single, monosyllabic number which seems to resemble another one distantly is easily a chance resemblance, until you get to three or so similar digits which indicates a possible relationship.

Furthermore, a good example is Pou-Ma, which takes Sino-Tibetan 1-10 as their language.

Puyuma uses, iirc, a native counting system. Where are you getting this data?

yeah, if you say that this source may not be true. http://www.zompist.com/asia.htm
3 from Miao-Yao languages:
Hmong mod. orth. peb; Hmong Njua pé; Bunu pe; White Meo pe; Hmong Chuanqiandian pe; Hmong NE Dian pi (?) (this one, the author might 'mix up and reverse' the value of '3' and '5'), Hmong Qiandong pi; Hmong Xiangxi pu; Mien(Yao) puo; Mien mod. orth. buo; Mun po: ; BiaoMin pau; Zaomin puh; Xiaoban po; Banyao pu; She pa; Jiongnai pa
Pa is the closest, Ruc also says "Pa".
It says that: leun song sam si ha hok tiet piet kao sip , closer to Tai than anything else. Maybe when the person was asked "1-10" he replied not in his/her language. If you say that these are not the original numbers of Pouma, then what are they?
A list of numbers that are possibly loans (just find it using Ctrl+F)
10 of Thavung, 4&10 of Amwi, 1-10 of Pou Ma (This can be wrong), 5-10 of Khmu', 7 and 9 of Mal, 10 of Khmer, many of Aslians, 7&8 of some Mundari Languages
Seeing that Mon and Katuic numbers are similar only to its group, and 5-10 are not similar to each other, I may say 5-10 are loans.
If you are careful, you can find some Tibeto-Burman using Indo-European large numbers (>7)
Indo-European sample: "ath" "nan" "das"
Malay: Satu dua tiga empat lima enam tujuh delapan sembilan sepuluh
http://www.zompist.com/sino.htm

It consists of a large Cantonese (?) superstratum imposed on a strong Vietnamese substratum resulting in modern "Sino-Vietnamese" language of Vietnam.

I don't know what you are thinking about "Sino-Vietnamese", I only know that there are Sino-Vietnamese vocabulary but I don't think there are "Sino-Vietnamese", "Sino-Japanese" or "Sino-Korean" languages.

That's what "superstratum" means. It indicates that it is foreign, and more recent, but that it constitutes a larger part of the entire vocabulary than the native vocabulary. Notice the "strong" Vietnamese substratum, indicating that it's not like French where the Gaulish substratum is only a few words, but that instead it's strong and has a large presence.

But are those Chinese loanwords very important? If we say the basic words, than it would be few to find.

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iêt8 ñzhi6 sâm2 si6 nguo4 lyuk8 tsˈyet7 pwat7 kyəu4 zhyəp7

*'iêt(D-) *ñzhi(C+) *sâm(A-) *si(C-) *nguo(B+) *lyuk(D+) *tsˈyet(D-) *pwat(D-) *kyəu(C-) *zhyəp(D+)
(These tones have been tested by comparisons with Sino-Viet and Mandarin)
Your tones:
Ping Shang Qu Ru
A B C D
- 1 3 5 7
+ 2 4 6 8
From the tones, it should be:
iêt7 ñzhi6 sâm1 si5 nguo4 lyuk8 tsˈyet7 pwat7 kyəu3 zhyəp8

[DarkGhost]

Vietnamese is not a Sino-Tibetian language. Vietnamese words that are similar to Cantonese and other Chinese dialects were adopted by the Vietnamese during Chinese rule. Before Chinese rule, the Vietnamese spoke a language totally unrelated to Chinese, but instead related to Khmer (and possibly Thai), hence the classification: Mon-Khmer.

Despite the similarities, Vietnamese is still very different from Chinese, grammar wise. For example: a Vietnamese would say "person Vietnamese" (ngoi Viet nam), while a Chinese person would say "Vietnamese person" (Yuenan ren).

You can compare it to English and French. The Brits adopted lots of French words, but that didn't change their language family - English is still a Germanic language and French is a Latin one.

[qrasy]

DarkGhost, Sino-Tibetan is at the same level as Indo-European, being the level of "Family". "Germanic", "Latin" are subfamilies of Indo-European. In a level of family, there's no need to be in the precise order, like French and English.

Oh, or are you making a new kind of classification? Tell me so.

Viet words that are similar to Cantonese are of course the "Sino-Vietnamese" words, it has been said several times that they are only loanwords.

Person in Vietnamese is "Người" (notice the "u")

[Mark Andrew Williamson]

There are some who make a family of "Tai-Kadai+Hmong-Mien+Sino+Tibetan", and some say that this is outdated. Or are you thinking this as one of "Sino-Xenic" languages?

I tend to agree with the Sino-Tai-Hmong grouping. It's not entirely solid, but it makes sense. And no, I am definitely not thinking of Sino-Xenic languages.

I see *phraw, and from the tone we can guess that there are some glots here. It comes to be *phrawʔ
My source: Alves_Vietnamese_Vietic_Monkhmer.pdf of http://www.geocities.com/malves98/publications.html , page 6 and 11.

I don't know - it's a single number, so it could be chance resemblance. But then again, there is always the possibility that it is a loanword or that they share a common origin.

But I know that in Korean there are native-20. I also know that there are some languages that has different counting system from Chinese, especially those which have the proper word for '100.000' and '20' (Lao).
I'm not saying that there are no counting system other than 10. Of course they may have different system, they are even very distant to each other and belonging to different family.

Not nessecarily. It is common, in language change, for a number system to shift to a different one. For example, in "Proto-Ainu", a duodecimal (base 20) system was used. In modern Sakhalin Ainu, a duodecimal system is still used, but in Hokkaido Ainu a decimal system (base 10) is now used.

In Old Divehi (Divehi is the national language of the Maldives), there was a duodecimal counting system (if I recall correctly), but in modern Divehi this has shifted, again, to a decimal system.

In many languages, the change is instead from a duodecimal to a vigesimal (base 5) system. This usually includes the switching from distinct words for 6-10 to words that are "5 plus 1", "5 plus 2", or "10 minus 4", "10 minus 3", etc.

I'm only saying that if there were really proto-Mon-Khmer, it should either have 5-counting system or 10-counting system. If you have 10, then it's impossible for you to have 5 in the same language. If there are more, it's not from Proto-Mon-Khmer (or can you suggest how it possibly was?)

As I noted above, such reduction is common. Khmer uses a vigesimal system, but all related languages use a decimal system, even though all number systems are obviously interrelated and bear little resemblance to neighbouring language families'.

yeah, if you say that this source may not be true. http://www.zompist.com/asia.htm
3 from Miao-Yao languages:
Hmong mod. orth. peb; Hmong Njua pé; Bunu pe; White Meo pe; Hmong Chuanqiandian pe; Hmong NE Dian pi (?) (this one, the author might 'mix up and reverse' the value of '3' and '5'), Hmong Qiandong pi; Hmong Xiangxi pu; Mien(Yao) puo; Mien mod. orth. buo; Mun po: ; BiaoMin pau; Zaomin puh; Xiaoban po; Banyao pu; She pa; Jiongnai pa
Pa is the closest, Ruc also says "Pa".
It says that: leun song sam si ha hok tiet piet kao sip , closer to Tai than anything else. Maybe when the person was asked "1-10" he replied not in his/her language. If you say that these are not the original numbers of Pouma, then what are they?
A list of numbers that are possibly loans (just find it using Ctrl+F)
10 of Thavung, 4&10 of Amwi, 1-10 of Pou Ma (This can be wrong), 5-10 of Khmu', 7 and 9 of Mal, 10 of Khmer, many of Aslians, 7&8 of some Mundari Languages

*cough*. 1. The proper English terms are "Amis" (not amwi), "Puyuma" (not pou ma), and "Rukai" (not ruc). 2. I suspect the list of Puyuma numbers is actually the result of a misunderstanding. They seem not even a loan but a direct recitation of Chinese. 3. Some Mundari languages used to be in direct contact with Chinese, and have lots of Chinese loans, so this cannot be ruled out as a source for the possible loans.

Seeing that Mon and Katuic numbers are similar only to its group, and 5-10 are not similar to each other, I may say 5-10 are loans.
If you are careful, you can find some Tibeto-Burman using Indo-European large numbers (>7)
Indo-European sample: "ath" "nan" "das"
Malay: Satu dua tiga empat lima enam tujuh delapan sembilan sepuluh
http://www.zompist.com/sino.htm

Uhh... I think there are vast resemblances in the 5-10 of Mon / Katuic and other Mon-Khmer languages.

It is very very possible that Tibeto-Burman languages have loans, for larger numbers, from Tocharian, or an Indo-Iranian language, or perhaps an extinct Indo-European language from the steppe that was never recorded.

I don't know what you are thinking about "Sino-Vietnamese", I only know that there are Sino-Vietnamese vocabulary but I don't think there are "Sino-Vietnamese", "Sino-Japanese" or "Sino-Korean" languages.

By "Sino-Vietnamese", I mean the modern language which has the Southern Chinese superstratum and the strong Vietnamese substratum, as opposed to the pure language "Vietnamese".

There is indeed a "Sino-Japanese" language, and it is used more than the "Japanese" language in Japan. This means it uses many, many Chinese loanwords that even in daily conversation they come up a lot. However, some people occasionally try a sort of linguistic excersise or language play which they call "Speaking in Yamatokotoba" ("Yamato" is a native rather than Chinese way of referring to Japan; "kotoba" is the native word for language rather than Chinese way "go" [as a suffix] or "gengo"), where they replace all Chinese loanwords with more Japanese ways of saying. Sometimes there is a simple alternative, but other times what is one Chinese loanword takes up a whole clause or a few words in Yamatokotoba.

I don't know for sure, but I speculate the same sort of game exists in Korean.

[DarkGhost]

DarkGhost, Sino-Tibetan is at the same level as Indo-European, being the level of "Family". "Germanic", "Latin" are subfamilies of Indo-European. In a level of family, there's no need to be in the precise order, like French and English.

Oh, or are you making a new kind of classification? Tell me so.

Viet words that are similar to Cantonese are of course the "Sino-Vietnamese" words, it has been said several times that they are only loanwords.

Person in Vietnamese is "Người" (notice the "u")

I see I made a wrong comparison, my bad.

[AlexNg]

People here always argue that since the adjective comes after the noun, it should not be sino-tibetan. May I draw an analogy :

sino-tibetan = indo-european (language family)

sinitic branch = germanic branch (sub- branch)
tai = latin branch (sub-branch)
tibetan-burmese = indian branch (sub-branch)

I don't quite agree that a language affiliation should be based just by looking at the numbers alone. How do you know which set of numbers and the so-called sino-vietnamese set is the original set ?

Speaking of tai language, its numbers 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 are very similar to cantonese but it is not placed under sino-tibetan by some linguistics !!!

You should look at the general characteristics of the language like tonal, monosyllabic, classifiers etc. For someone new to vietnamese, they would think that after hearing it, it would sound more similar to cantonese than a khmer language !

[Mark Andrew Williamson]

I don't quite agree that a language affiliation should be based just by looking at the numbers alone.

Numerals are some of the most simple words and they are more unlikely than most words to be replaced entirely with words from other languages. The only cases I have seen so far of a direct loan of all numbers is in Sino-Xenic languages, but they also kept the native system and have two ways of saying numbers.

How do you know which set of numbers and the so-called sino-vietnamese set is the original set ?

Because it is.

Speaking of tai language, its numbers 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 are very similar to cantonese but it is not placed under sino-tibetan by some linguistics !!!

Some linguists believe Thai is a Sino-Xenic language that lost its native numeral system, but I don't think that's very sound of an opinion because other Tai-Kadai languages share the same resemblances to Sino-Tibetan.

You should look at the general characteristics of the language like tonal, monosyllabic, classifiers etc. For someone new to vietnamese, they would think that after hearing it, it would sound more similar to cantonese than a khmer language !

Do you know any Mon-Khmer languages? All of them are tonal, monosyllabic, and all of them have classifiers. The simple fact is, Vietnamese is not Sino-Tibetan and to insist that it is, is a rediculous excercise in tomfoolery.