we are not denying our past. as most cantonese know, we recognize that we have a uniqueness to our people that cannot said to be shared with the rest of the Chinese.
it is great that people are making attempts to delve into the baak jyut past(i hate the word aborigine being used for our ancestors) but as ppk pointed out, it is not that we don't want to but the time that has passed since the old culture assimilated has rendered it very difficult to find concrete clues about the culture/language. I would guess we have less to go on than the Sichuanese with the Ba and Shu cultures, at least they have a plethora of undisturbed archaelogical sites.
Also, comparing the Native Americans to the Cantonese is unfair, to say the least. Native Americans have only lost contact(not even completely) with their original culture since the European settlers arrived, roughly 2-300 years. With the Cantonese, you're talking about 2-3000 years. Many of the Native Americans have already assimilated into mainstream society and most of their feeble attempts at retaining their culture has all but failed because of their dwindling numbers and its impracticality in the modern world, in a modern state such as the US.
Knowing this, it would be extremely hard to revive much if any of the 'original' Cantonese culture and I for one am satisfied to know that our culture is one that is Chinese, yet, uniquely Cantonese.
A Separate Cantonese Republic???
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
If it's so important to revive cultures, why not import Gaels from the British Isles and Ireland to Iberia, Germanic peoples to France, Indo-Iranians to Turkey and Palestine? Better yet, why not find DNA of a proto-Indo-European person and clone them? That way, we can make a whole population for Lithuania.
Why are you so obsessed? Why do you want to resurrect the world of 5000+ ysa? People have moved, cultures have changed, languages have risen and fallen.
Now, it would be great to find out all we could about these extinct cultures and fill library upon library with them, but reviving them is out of the question, there is no point in that whatsoever. If everybody thought as you did, people would be hijacking nations of their ancient ancestry as did the Israelis to the Palestinians. If you're a Scotsman with Germanic heritage, how would you like it if a bloke from the Outer Hebrides bulldozes your house and puts up his own mansion there because his Celtic ancestors used to live there? It may seem OK when it's other people losing their homes, but when it happens to you it won't be OK...
Why are you so obsessed? Why do you want to resurrect the world of 5000+ ysa? People have moved, cultures have changed, languages have risen and fallen.
Now, it would be great to find out all we could about these extinct cultures and fill library upon library with them, but reviving them is out of the question, there is no point in that whatsoever. If everybody thought as you did, people would be hijacking nations of their ancient ancestry as did the Israelis to the Palestinians. If you're a Scotsman with Germanic heritage, how would you like it if a bloke from the Outer Hebrides bulldozes your house and puts up his own mansion there because his Celtic ancestors used to live there? It may seem OK when it's other people losing their homes, but when it happens to you it won't be OK...
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
It's a nice idea having a nation where everyone is of the same stock, but most people (if not all people) are not purely any race. Racial definitions themselves are very vague because:
· They're named after places where a race used to reside but doesn't anymore (often another race they're having an argument of heritage with is in that place now);
· They're given mass names e.g. the Bạch Việt or Bai Yue - with the Vietnamese taking this name as its own but not being the same as the other ones given that name it all becomes more confusing;
· Or another reason which I forgot but I believe is equally important or perhaps more so than the two above.
Besides what's more important when deciding how to mark out country borders is how will the people be happiest in those countries. Culture is really only important in this as far as modern culture goes e.g. Israelis and Palestinians wouldn't be best in the same country even without the automatic prejudice because Israeli law is so closely fitted to the Israeli religion and way of life.
I believe we should try to find out what groups people of areas are from for the causes of science and people who are interested in their racial history but not forget what is most important - happiness. How diferently do North and South Chinese people live. If China ran itself more like a freedom sharing 1st world country I doubt the Cantonese nation issue would be seen as such an important issue.
Which is easier: rebelling to carve your own nation out of the Cantonese lands and ensuring that nation is ruled justly or instigating some intelligent reform in the Chinese government to bring about better living conditions and less conformism?
By the way, I always thought the Vietnamese were originally a MonKhmer group and that the Champa people were further south.
· They're named after places where a race used to reside but doesn't anymore (often another race they're having an argument of heritage with is in that place now);
· They're given mass names e.g. the Bạch Việt or Bai Yue - with the Vietnamese taking this name as its own but not being the same as the other ones given that name it all becomes more confusing;
· Or another reason which I forgot but I believe is equally important or perhaps more so than the two above.
Besides what's more important when deciding how to mark out country borders is how will the people be happiest in those countries. Culture is really only important in this as far as modern culture goes e.g. Israelis and Palestinians wouldn't be best in the same country even without the automatic prejudice because Israeli law is so closely fitted to the Israeli religion and way of life.
I believe we should try to find out what groups people of areas are from for the causes of science and people who are interested in their racial history but not forget what is most important - happiness. How diferently do North and South Chinese people live. If China ran itself more like a freedom sharing 1st world country I doubt the Cantonese nation issue would be seen as such an important issue.
Which is easier: rebelling to carve your own nation out of the Cantonese lands and ensuring that nation is ruled justly or instigating some intelligent reform in the Chinese government to bring about better living conditions and less conformism?
By the way, I always thought the Vietnamese were originally a MonKhmer group and that the Champa people were further south.
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
It's a nice idea having a nation where everyone is of the same stock, but most people (if not all people) are not purely any race. Racial definitions themselves are very vague because:
· They're named after places where a race used to reside but doesn't anymore (often another race they're having an argument of heritage with is in that place now);
· They're given mass names e.g. the Bạch Việt or Bai Yue - with the Vietnamese taking this name as its own but not being the same as the other ones given that name it all becomes more confusing;
· Or another reason which I forgot but I believe is equally important or perhaps more so than the two above.
Besides what's more important when deciding how to mark out country borders is how will the people be happiest in those countries. Culture is really only important in this as far as modern culture goes e.g. Israelis and Palestinians wouldn't be best in the same country even without the automatic prejudice because Israeli law is so closely fitted to the Israeli religion and way of life.
I believe we should try to find out what groups people of areas are from for the causes of science and people who are interested in their racial history but not forget what is most important - happiness. How diferently do North and South Chinese people live. If China ran itself more like a freedom sharing 1st world country I doubt the Cantonese nation issue would be seen as such an important issue.
Which is easier: rebelling to carve your own nation out of the Cantonese lands and ensuring that nation is ruled justly or instigating some intelligent reform in the Chinese government to bring about better living conditions and less conformism?
By the way, I always thought the Vietnamese were originally a MonKhmer group and that the Champa people were further south.
· They're named after places where a race used to reside but doesn't anymore (often another race they're having an argument of heritage with is in that place now);
· They're given mass names e.g. the Bạch Việt or Bai Yue - with the Vietnamese taking this name as its own but not being the same as the other ones given that name it all becomes more confusing;
· Or another reason which I forgot but I believe is equally important or perhaps more so than the two above.
Besides what's more important when deciding how to mark out country borders is how will the people be happiest in those countries. Culture is really only important in this as far as modern culture goes e.g. Israelis and Palestinians wouldn't be best in the same country even without the automatic prejudice because Israeli law is so closely fitted to the Israeli religion and way of life.
I believe we should try to find out what groups people of areas are from for the causes of science and people who are interested in their racial history but not forget what is most important - happiness. How diferently do North and South Chinese people live. If China ran itself more like a freedom sharing 1st world country I doubt the Cantonese nation issue would be seen as such an important issue.
Which is easier: rebelling to carve your own nation out of the Cantonese lands and ensuring that nation is ruled justly or instigating some intelligent reform in the Chinese government to bring about better living conditions and less conformism?
By the way, I always thought the Vietnamese were originally a MonKhmer group and that the Champa people were further south.
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PPK
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
alex,
personally i wouldnt agree to a nation with purely ppl of the same stock. sounds to me like nazism.
anyway this separate cantonese nation thingy is only a proposal of sum and one or two other forumers here.
personally i wouldnt agree to a nation with purely ppl of the same stock. sounds to me like nazism.
anyway this separate cantonese nation thingy is only a proposal of sum and one or two other forumers here.
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Sum Won
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
You're correct, that ethnic clensing is a bad thing. Did I ever propose it? Look back at every post I've made and slap me in the face with it. The reason for proposing a Seperate Republic was to show the scars, and and do something about them. Such would be, for the world-nation proposal.
Many of you say that you don't deny your heritage, but then none of you want to investigate further, with excuses of "it's too hard and complicated", which is no better than denying your heritage; hence what I meant by all of you wanting to "bury the situation and live out your happy lives".
Many of you also complained that I politicized an issue, and that I'm a being a politician. If any of you would follow closely at American politics, you'd know there were more than two candidates in the 2000 elections. One such candidate, Ralph Nader said, "If you turn your back on politics, politics will surely turn it's back on you."
Politics itself is nothing more than a person-to-person interactivity, where debates are held, for what purposes should be what worries all of you.
I'm limited on my time, so on the subject of "culture reviving", I'll continue that another day...
Many of you say that you don't deny your heritage, but then none of you want to investigate further, with excuses of "it's too hard and complicated", which is no better than denying your heritage; hence what I meant by all of you wanting to "bury the situation and live out your happy lives".
Many of you also complained that I politicized an issue, and that I'm a being a politician. If any of you would follow closely at American politics, you'd know there were more than two candidates in the 2000 elections. One such candidate, Ralph Nader said, "If you turn your back on politics, politics will surely turn it's back on you."
Politics itself is nothing more than a person-to-person interactivity, where debates are held, for what purposes should be what worries all of you.
I'm limited on my time, so on the subject of "culture reviving", I'll continue that another day...
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sfboy
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
I don't understand what needs to be investigated. Us Cantonese are an amalgamation of the native Guangdong proto-yue culture and the Northern Han culture. We cannot single out the proto-yue culture as our original roots because the Cantonese that exist today belong to both the Han and the proto-yue and we maintain our practices through our ancient, colorful Cantonese language. We are not "lazy and enjoying our happy lives" it is just that it is near impossible to distinguish what is the aborgine culture and what is the culture that arose from Han influence. Many of our rituals and practices unique to Guangdong arose after the Han migration. Being Cantonese is being proto-yue and Han... I don't know why it is so hard to understand. Sum won are you cantonese? Only cantonese can understand this.
We also pride ourselves at the antiquity of our language as compared to Mandarin. We also have many 'shamanistic' beliefs that the Northerners don't have, which is a direct influence form the proto-yue culture.
I do not support a Cantonese republic but it would be nice if they moved the capital to Guangzhou or Hong Kong because then we would be the major political force rather than always being the economic force of China.
We also pride ourselves at the antiquity of our language as compared to Mandarin. We also have many 'shamanistic' beliefs that the Northerners don't have, which is a direct influence form the proto-yue culture.
I do not support a Cantonese republic but it would be nice if they moved the capital to Guangzhou or Hong Kong because then we would be the major political force rather than always being the economic force of China.
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KP
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
I don't know why Cantonese have such a hard time distinguishing their "Ancient" culture from the Han culture.
Findings by many South East Asian countries have shown that there was a culture shared by many groups living in South East Asia pre-Han influence.
But all I hear :
"it is near impossible to distinguish what is the aborgine culture and what is the culture that arose from Han influence"
It is not too difficult. Vietnamese culture is made up of about 60% Han and 40% South East Asian, and they have been able to separate what parts of their culture was from Pre and Post-Han influence. It seems to me that alot of the Cantonese in this thread seem to dismiss findings of SEA Nations, is it because they are not Chinese findings?
Findings by many South East Asian countries have shown that there was a culture shared by many groups living in South East Asia pre-Han influence.
But all I hear :
"it is near impossible to distinguish what is the aborgine culture and what is the culture that arose from Han influence"
It is not too difficult. Vietnamese culture is made up of about 60% Han and 40% South East Asian, and they have been able to separate what parts of their culture was from Pre and Post-Han influence. It seems to me that alot of the Cantonese in this thread seem to dismiss findings of SEA Nations, is it because they are not Chinese findings?
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Sum Won
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
Ah... KP, once again (another rare occassion), you actually come up with a post that I don't have to disagree with. You are correct in the fact that there are many findings on ancient tribal cultures --I guess it's all a matter of who reads what, and from where, or just the fact that these findings aren't published in a wide-media spectrum (i.e. the internet). If there are any links to them, It'd be nice if you provided some. However, this still is not an excuse for Cantonese, above all people, to not even investigate.
_____________________________________________________
Topics I still haven't covered, and the "revival" issue.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-To some of you, I may be obssessed, and maybe I am. Am I wrong? That's up to the individual to debate... On the revival, it doesn't necessarily mean the entire revival to the way of life, which won't accomodate the standard of living. An example, would be "cannabalism": There was proof that it was done, but will people do it now? Obviously not. There is some evidence on the amount of egalitarianism, and the structure of a matriarchical society (In other words, men might have stayed home during peace time, sewing and taking care of the kids, while the mother went off doing other things). Egalitarianism, is still something that needs working on, in all societies today --something that was destroyed under the Chinese rule, with the acceptance of Confucianism.
-Mark made his point in the "migrating" of ancient people from one spot back to another. True, it would be a hassle, but why can't it be done? Because people refuse to face the truth and correct the wrongs.
"If I had to give away my home, because it turned out to be someone else's, 'tough luck for me', I'll just find another home."
Also, a little tiny note on that: The Gauls, who were a Gaelic tribe, originally settled the region of modern-day France.
-Another comment I have to make, will be posted on the other thread...
_____________________________________________________
Topics I still haven't covered, and the "revival" issue.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-To some of you, I may be obssessed, and maybe I am. Am I wrong? That's up to the individual to debate... On the revival, it doesn't necessarily mean the entire revival to the way of life, which won't accomodate the standard of living. An example, would be "cannabalism": There was proof that it was done, but will people do it now? Obviously not. There is some evidence on the amount of egalitarianism, and the structure of a matriarchical society (In other words, men might have stayed home during peace time, sewing and taking care of the kids, while the mother went off doing other things). Egalitarianism, is still something that needs working on, in all societies today --something that was destroyed under the Chinese rule, with the acceptance of Confucianism.
-Mark made his point in the "migrating" of ancient people from one spot back to another. True, it would be a hassle, but why can't it be done? Because people refuse to face the truth and correct the wrongs.
"If I had to give away my home, because it turned out to be someone else's, 'tough luck for me', I'll just find another home."
Also, a little tiny note on that: The Gauls, who were a Gaelic tribe, originally settled the region of modern-day France.
-Another comment I have to make, will be posted on the other thread...
-
sfboy
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
I think that's preposterous about how Vietnamese could separate that 60% are Han influenced and 40% SEA influenced. I mean sure, maybe they could determine that this festival or holiday was from Chinese, this one was from Khmer, etc but what about the more mundane things? For cantonese people things like "Scratching the back of your head because of embarassment or humiliation, spitting after saying something wrong..." how do you distinguish where these things come from? Maybe both the native culture and the Han culture shared similar traits before they came into contact, possible that the native culture practiced these things first and it got spread into the mainstream Han, maybe Han had it first.