Hoklo-Hokkien loanwords in Indo./Malay and v.v.

[amhoanna]

Mostly English, actually!

[amhoanna]

Hey, guys. I've been in Jogja, where it's been raining ... for 18 mos. The people are incredible, though. More on all this later --- probably elsewhere, since there's not much to write about Hokkien-wise. ... One time a parking attendant here said, "Arigatou" to me, then right away switched gears and said "Kamsia". I got a kick out of that. Somebody said to me here, "A lot of foreigners look Indonesian and a lot of Indonesians look foreign." S/he said it! ... Pai5 Hoa5 is the first thing that comes to the minds of some when Indonesia and Java are mentioned, yet I haven't sensed any of it since I've been in central Jawa, nor "of course" on Bali. The integration of Hokkien/South Chinese and Nusantaran elements is something to behold... The Hokkien language suddenly vanishing here in the 20th cen. seems to have left a void, a missing link. Several writers have commented on this "linking" function of Hokkien in a S'porean context... Well, it's still fun to tell people here that there's lumpia in TW too (and the Phils), and hok4-khi3 is Hokkien for hoky.

Use of Javanese is on the decline in a way that's probably familiar to most of us here. In the Keraton I saw a wall mural of three characters from Hindu mythology using a computer with a Javanese keyboard (Indic Javanese script) and Javanese script on the monitor. It was a great image. I'll share it soon.

Another interesting thing. I read that some people here refer to the sea goddess Nyai Loro Kidul as "grandmother", whereas the name of the Hoklo sea goddess is literally "grandmother, great-grandmother".

OK, what I really wanted to post were a few correspondences between Hoklo and b. Indo, mostly semantic.

1. UGLY and BAD share a word in both languages. Indo jelek. Hok bai2.

2. Indo "tak kenal ______" vs. Hok "m7-cai1 _______", e.g "tak kenal lelah", "m7-cai1 thiam2". Not sure if that's what "tak kenal lelah" really means, though. Confirmation from those of U with good Indo/Malay?

3. RISE and BUILD share a word in both languages. Indo bangun. Hok khi2. Also Canto hei2.

4. Orang and lang5 sound awfully alike.

5. POOR PEOPLE are called PEOPLE OF HARDSHIP in both languages. Indo orang susah. Hok kan1-khou2-lang5.

6. Indo "sial", "sialan" vs. Hok "bo5 sia3-si3", not sure of the tone on that last syllable.

I could've sworn I saw/heard a lot more, but these are the ones I jotted down and have on hand.

[Ah-bin]

I notice that a similar word "olono" exists in a language on Madagascar, which suggests it predates any connection with Sinitic. Here is a long list of Austronesian words for "person", it certainly is interesting that there aren't many that look like "orang":

http://language.psy.auckland.ac.nz/aust ... d.php?v=53

[niuc]

Hey, guys. I've been in Jogja, where it's been raining ... for 18 mos.

For 18 months? Wow!
Have you been to Prambanan and Borobudur?

The people are incredible, though.

Yes, Jogja people are well known for being polite and soft spoken. And practically all their cooked food dishes are sweet, even the sambal (chili sauce)!

Pai5 Hoa5 is the first thing that comes to the minds of some when Indonesia and Java are mentioned, yet I haven't sensed any of it since I've been in central Jawa, nor "of course" on Bali.

Bali is kind of exceptional in Indonesia. Jawa is less so but not bad also, except for some extremists (minority, who recently even killed their own people and co-religionists who were deemed heretical) and during riot times. I visited Jogja in 1992/3 and didn't sense any anti-Tnglang there either. Things should be even better now, ever since Soeharto's ban on Chinese culture is lifted. As you may have known, CNY is a holiday (1 day) in Indonesia, since Gus Dur of blessed memory made it optional and subsequently made official by Megawati. Personally I think that lifting the ban is surely a correct decision, yet to make CNY a national holiday is really a kind of honour for Indonesian Chinese who constitute less than 5% of the population. And surely virtually none protested as it means one more holiday. I also don't mind if Singapore were to add e.g. Javanese/Balinese NY or Thai Songkran as holidays!

Another interesting thing. I read that some people here refer to the sea goddess Nyai Loro Kidul as "grandmother", whereas the name of the Hoklo sea goddess is literally "grandmother, great-grandmother".

May be it's related? However, there is a huge different between them in term of morality, as I read somewhere that Nyai Loro Kidul is considered to be a "wife" of every ruler of Jogja and wearing sensual clothes, that's to say the least; while 媽祖 is a virgin and wearing "decent Confucian" clothing.

OK, what I really wanted to post were a few correspondences between Hoklo and b. Indo, mostly semantic.

Thanks, you are so right! I hardly noticed about jelek, bangun & orang susah.

Not sure if that's what "tak kenal lelah" really means, though.

If I understand your "m7-cai1 thiam2" correctly, "tak kenal lelah" means the same, i.e. not tired of doing something, or can bear being tired in doing something due to dedication.

6. Indo "sial", "sialan" vs. Hok "bo5 sia3-si3", not sure of the tone on that last syllable.

What is "sia3-si3"?

http://language.psy.auckland.ac.nz/aust ... d.php?v=53

Great list! Many languages in the list have "manusia" or something like that, which is from Sanskrit. In Bahasa Indonesia, manusia is human(kind), kemanusiaan is humanity; while orang usually means human in the sense of people or a person.

[Ah-bin]

I forgot to add that the cognate term for "orang" in Maori is "oranga", health, or well-being, which is from a root form "ora" meaning "well", "healthy", or "alive", so "orang" to me always suggested "living being"

[amhoanna]

Hey, guys. I've been in Jogja, where it's been raining ... for 18 mos.
For 18 months? Wow!
Have you been to Prambanan and Borobudur?

It's the rainy season anyway, but someone said it's been raining non-stop ever since the Merapi eruption in Nov, and somebody else said it's been raining non-stop for 18 months. The people there don't seem to mind!

I tried to ride to Borobudur, but I turned back close to the gates b/c there were cops there, and I didn't have an int'l driver's license -- and the fine can run well over the standard 50K or 80K when the cops snare a gaijin at a tourist hotspot A few things happened right then. I wound up having a spiritual conversation with a librarian in a little library out in the country.

Personally I think that lifting the ban is surely a correct decision, yet to make CNY a national holiday is really a kind of honour for Indonesian Chinese who constitute less than 5% of the population. And surely virtually none protested as it means one more holiday. I also don't mind if Singapore were to add e.g. Javanese/Balinese NY or Thai Songkran as holidays!

A pan-ASEAN holiday schedule. Great way to improve ASEAN cooperation.

May be it's related? However, there is a huge different between them in term of morality, as I read somewhere that Nyai Loro Kidul is considered to be a "wife" of every ruler of Jogja and wearing sensual clothes, that's to say the least; while 媽祖 is a virgin and wearing "decent Confucian" clothing.

This is a topic for eternity, the virgin vs. the cougar. I almost bought a batik of Ratu Kidul in the Keraton, it had such a sensuous, brown-skinned, full-figured Ratu Kidul. But the batik was flawed. Every other picture of her has her all pale and European-looking, like the chicks on Jakarta TV.

If I understand your "m7-cai1 thiam2" correctly, "tak kenal lelah" means the same, i.e. not tired of doing something, or can bear being tired in doing something due to dedication.

Yes.

What is "sia3-si3"?

Isn't there a phrase bo5-sia3-si3, meaning "what a shame"? I read it somewhere but I've never actually heard it.

http://language.psy.auckland.ac.nz/aust ... d.php?v=53
Great list! Many languages in the list have "manusia" or something like that, which is from Sanskrit. In Bahasa Indonesia, manusia is human(kind), kemanusiaan is humanity; while orang usually means human in the sense of people or a person.

I forgot to add that the cognate term for "orang" in Maori is "oranga", health, or well-being, which is from a root form "ora" meaning "well", "healthy", or "alive", so "orang" to me always suggested "living being"
I forgot to add that the cognate term for "orang" in Maori is "oranga", health, or well-being, which is from a root form "ora" meaning "well", "healthy", or "alive", so "orang" to me always suggested "living being"

Way to go. Maybe just a coincidence. Wasn't Proto-Austronesian spoken right in modern day Hokkian though? We might expect to find pieces of Proto-Austronesian in Hokkien.

[Ah-bin]

Way to go. Maybe just a coincidence. Wasn't Proto-Austronesian spoken right in modern day Hokkian though? We might expect to find pieces of Proto-Austronesian in Hokkien.

I'm not sure whether anyone can say for sure about that....

There seem to be many Tai loans, but then there is the theory that Austronesian and Tai are related...then there is the Austric hypothesis that relates all of them together with Austroasiatic.

The example I remember often quoted is "eye" VN "mat" Tai "ha/tha" Austronesian "mata"! Mata means "face" for some Maori, and "eyes" for others. The funniest thing for Malay/Indonesian speakers is the word for eyes in central North Island Maori, which is "whatu"......the cognate in Malay is "batu"!

That word "kutu" is interesting, it is borrowed into northern Malaysian Hokkien, but it's also widely known (as a borrowing from Maori) in New Zealand English outside the big cities.

Back to the subject...

It was almost certainly the case that the genetic ancestors of the Formosan Aboriginals came from the East Asian mainland, but whether the people in southern Fukien still spoke Austronesian-related languages when the first Sinitic speakers turned up is another story altogether.

I have a paper somewhere that connects the Hokkien words for "male" and "female" to Austronesian (I saw it a few weeks ago while sorting through my drawers), and I always think of "babi" as related to "bah", since "bah" used to refer to pork. That is just my own pet theory though.

[niuc]

It's the rainy season anyway, but someone said it's been raining non-stop ever since the Merapi eruption in Nov, and somebody else said it's been raining non-stop for 18 months. The people there don't seem to mind!

I see. Not sure about Jogja, but northern coastal area of Java (including Jakarta) and eastern coastal area of Sumatra usually have rainy season around Oct to Apr.

I tried to ride to Borobudur, but I turned back close to the gates b/c there were cops there, and I didn't have an int'l driver's license -- and the fine can run well over the standard 50K or 80K when the cops snare a gaijin at a tourist hotspot

So you are well informed about "tarif uang damai"!

Every other picture of her has her all pale and European-looking, like the chicks on Jakarta TV.

To have an "Indo" (in this context meaning Eurasian) look is a strong selling point in entertainment circle there, though some achieve that by cosmetic surgery.

Isn't there a phrase bo5-sia3-si3, meaning "what a shame"? I read it somewhere but I've never actually heard it.

It seems that I have never heard of this.

The example I remember often quoted is "eye" VN "mat" Tai "ha/tha" Austronesian "mata"! Mata means "face" for some Maori, and "eyes" for others. The funniest thing for Malay/Indonesian speakers is the word for eyes in central North Island Maori, which is "whatu"......the cognate in Malay is "batu"!

Interesting!

I have a paper somewhere that connects the Hokkien words for "male" and "female" to Austronesian (I saw it a few weeks ago while sorting through my drawers)

Please share with us at your convenient time.

and I always think of "babi" as related to "bah", since "bah" used to refer to pork.

It's interesting (yet very logical) that "bah" in Hokkien primarily refers to pork; "daging" in Indonesian to beef. Does the word "meat" in Anglosphere have similar "implied" meaning?

[Ah-bin]

It's interesting (yet very logical) that "bah" in Hokkien primarily refers to pork; "daging" in Indonesian to beef. Does the word "meat" in Anglosphere have similar "implied" meaning?

The old meaning for "meat" was just "food", and the meaning is fossilised in the saying "one man's meat is another man's poison", the cognate "mat" is still used in the Scandinavian languages in that sense. The languages more closely related to English (Dutch and English) still use words related to "flesh" (vlees, Fleisch) for "meat"

[niuc]

The old meaning for "meat" was just "food", and the meaning is fossilised in the saying "one man's meat is another man's poison", the cognate "mat" is still used in the Scandinavian languages in that sense. The languages more closely related to English (Dutch and English) still use words related to "flesh" (vlees, Fleisch) for "meat"

Thanks for the interesting etymology. Did it indicate that primary food for Anglo-Saxon was meat (animal flesh), therefore the shift in meaning? For today's native speaker, does "meat" have implied meaning of beef or pork etc?