Burmese Hokkien

[Mark Yong]

xiaojian wrote:
Usually formal readings for people's given names: (e.g. 天正 is Thian-cheng, 海水 is Hai-swee, but some exceptions; my grandmother's name, 金葉, is read Kim-hyor, with hyor being an informal reading)

Yes, that would be the normal convention, i.e. surnames are in the colloquial pronunciation, and given names are in the literal pronunciation.

xiaojian wrote:
- Nasalized 阿 = 俺 (not sure if it's specific to certain regions), but 俺公俺嬤 are almost universal, while 阿公阿嬤 are almost unheard of. Also, nicknames tend to use 俺 (my uncle's pet name is 俺明, an-beng), not 阿.

This is interesting, as the use of 阿 (un-nasalised) is used in Malaysia. It could very well be that Burmese Hokkien has preserved a distinction that has been lost elsewhere.

xiaojian wrote:
eng instead of -ing (慶 is kheng, not khing; 明 is beng, not bing; 正 is cheng, not ching; 警 is keng, not king)

Actually, I find that -e- (and by extension, -eng) is the more phonetically-accurate way to Romanise them, and that is how I normally Romanise those words. I suspect this -i- spelling convention is Mandarin-influenced.

xiaojian wrote:
- Preference for unaspirated initial consonants, as in Burmese (姊姊 is usually unaspirated, not 'chi', more like 'ci')

That really depends on the words themselves; some are, in fact, aspirated, while others are not. 姊 is unaspirated, yes. But 刺 and 翅 are aspirated. Do you mean that normally-aspirated words are unaspirated in Burmese Hokkien?

[niuc]

xiaojian wrote:
- Nasalized 阿 = 俺 (not sure if it's specific to certain regions), but 俺公俺嬤 are almost universal, while 阿公阿嬤 are almost unheard of. Also, nicknames tend to use 俺 (my uncle's pet name is 俺明, an-beng), not 阿.

This is found also in my variant, but it can be ang-/an-/am-. For names, it is followed by -a, e.g. am-bing-a.

xiaojian wrote:
eng instead of -ing (慶 is kheng, not khing; 明 is beng, not bing; 正 is cheng, not ching; 警 is keng, not king)

Actually, I find that -e- (and by extension, -eng) is the more phonetically-accurate way to Romanise them, and that is how I normally Romanise those words. I suspect this -i- spelling convention is Mandarin-influenced.

Not Mandarin-influenced. My variant has -ing rather than -eng. I think all 泉州 variants have -ing, while 漳州 -eng. Sim ever wrote about -iəng in Amoy variant (廈門話). Actually I am puzzled why POJ has -eng while Amoy variant is (much closer to) -ing rather than -eng. On the other hand, I saw Cantonese written with -ing while what I heard was actually -eng.

[Mark Yong]

niuc wrote:
Not Mandarin-influenced. My variant has -ing rather than -eng.

Hi, niuc,

Apologies for my hasty and one-sided comment there!

After reading your post, I gave some deeper thought about how my mother-in-law (she is of 南安 Lăm-Uāⁿ ancestry, which would therefore make it 泉州 Cŭan Cīu, i.e. akin to your variant) pronounces the so-called -eng words. You are right - they do come out as -ing.

It is interesting to note that Bodman’s texts Romanise this class of words as -ie-, e.g. 明 bieng, which would further demonstrate how 廈門 Amoy Hokkien sits at the centre of the continuum between that of 漳州 Ciang Ciu and 泉州 Cuan Ciu.

[amhoanna]

The Burmese script is pretty well-suited for transcribing Hokkien (it has a full set of aspirated, unaspirated consonants, can form all the finals for Hokkien, but lacks some initials and vowels),

And it marks tones too, right?

- Usually formal readings for people's given names: (e.g. 天正 is Thian-cheng, 海水 is Hai-swee, but some exceptions; my grandmother's name, 金葉, is read Kim-hyor, with hyor being an informal reading)

I think this is true everywhere in the Hoklosphere, with exceptions. I use informal readings for my whole name, and I'm not the only person who does this. ROC ex-president Tan Cuipinn is the highest profile example of our times. Usually, formal readings are the default, but the person can opt to use the informal. Ma Engkiu and of course Ciunn Kaisek never knew enough Hoklo to opt in or stay out, but lots of people refer to them as Ma Engkau (but not Be Engkau!) and Ciunn Kaicio' as a form of disrespect. I guess this is what all them Amoy cabbies were talking about when they said there was too much freedom across the Straits

combined with the fact that many Burmese Chinese immigrate or work in Yunnan, Singapore and Taiwan.

Ironic but no doubt true. Spending time in Sg or TW actually helps Hoklo Burmese lose their Hoklo. Don't know if U guys have been to "Burmese Street" in Outer Taipak, Taiwan. My guess is that ethnic Burmese are greatly outnumbered by Sino-Burmese there, although I wouldn't be surprised if this changes somewhere down the line, if regulations shift and ethnic Burmese go abroad to seek better pay. Many of the restaurants are straight up Cantonese restaurants--branded as "Hong Kong" restaurants b/c TWese people don't really grasp the concept of "Cantonese"--but U would almost need to have a history degree to guess that a lot of the people there are probably Hokkiens ... who migrated to a Hoklo speaking city (Taipak) and lost their Hoklo in lockstep with the city.
...
Re: the -ing/-eng thing, in TW I think it's Ciangciu-type accents that use -ing. All other accents, including the mainstream, use -ieng with the schwa. I believe the Ong Le recording and Chonglam Hoklo are the same way. Penang has the "strongest" -eng I've ever heard, it's almost like -eing. Some Teochew dialects really do have -eing, and -eik. Goa kodin si cin ka'i!

[SimL]

Penang has the "strongest" -eng I've ever heard, it's almost like -eing.

Fascinating .

I'm not sure I hear it myself, but if we ever meet, I'd love to hear you do a contrast between a 'normal' "-eng" and a Penang Hokkien "-eng" -> "-eing".

[amhoanna]

I'm an [ieng] (schwa) speaker. Regular [eng] is boring anyway. Now the Penang/Teochew [eng] or [eing], that's the way to express yourself.

[Ah-bin]

Just a little update on Burmese Hokkien

I've got to know a Burmese student in the last few weeks, and I asked him about the language of the Chinese in Rangoon. He asked a friend of his, who actually speaks Hokkien (but lives in Singapore) and his friend says that they divide the Chinese into "long-sleeve" and "short-sleeve" Chinese, the "long-sleeve" are the Hokkien speakers, and the name derives from the fact that they were rich and didn't have to work the land, unlike the "short-sleeve' Chinese.

Apparently only older Rangoon Chinese are fluent speakers, the younger Chinese speak Burmese, and some learn Mandarin.

The word thâu-ke• is also well-known in Burmese. I haven't tried any of the other words yet, such as those for furniture.

[amhoanna]

So if a Hokkien daughter marries Canto, her father could say, "Goá ẻ cabó·kiáⁿ ná ẽ kè· hõ· cịt ẻ té'ńg ·ẻ!"

[amhoanna]

Ta̍kgê hó, thiaⁿkóng còekūn Biántiān ê koáncè ū kái, taⁿ ēsái tùi Thàikok Lalông (siaⁿtiāu bô khaktiāⁿ; Siāmgí ระนอง) ti̍tthàu kòe Biántiān hit pêng liáu'āu sûicāi lâng phapha cáu.

http://www.travelfish.org/blogs/burma/2 ... gs-opened/

Sī kóng Biántiān óa Lalông hit tah cinciàⁿ iapphiah, thiaⁿkóng ū kheh'ūn koh ū cûn thang cē, m̄ cai ū iáⁿ--bô. Koh lâi m̄ cai kám cin gûihiám. Thiaⁿkóng hit tah cin cē háisoapoo kài súi koh lóng bô lang.

Tùi téng kái Xiáojian kah lán hunhióng liáu'āu, lán cai'iáⁿ "Pinéng hêng" ê Hokkiàn ōe tī Biántiān ū lâng kóng, koh MERGUI / MYEIK hit tah ū chá-kóetiâu bûnhòa ōo!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_kway_teow#Variations

M̄ cai hit tah tongkim áncóaⁿ.