Hi Sim
If I remember correctly, there was a discussion about "kaypoh" (ke1-po5 in my variant) a few years back. In Mandarin (esp. Taiwan) it is written as 雞婆, even my Beijing friends know the term. However 雞婆 doesn't fit my variant as it is 'kue1-po5'. I tend to think of it as 加婆, because 加工 'ke1-kang1' (lit. to add work) in my variants almost always used to mean "adding more works that are not needed and yielding worse results", i.e. 畫蛇添足 "to add legs while drawing a snake". If not mistaken, 加婆 doesn't fit into Penang/Ciangciu variants. Some say that it is 家婆 (husband's mother in Mandarin, 'ta1-ke1' in Hokkien), its pronunciation fits in my variant, how about yours? If 家婆 is the proper hanji, probably it is from 管家婆 (head of servants/housekeepers) that usually needed/wanted to know everything that happened in the house.
Literary vs. Colloquial pronunciation of numbers
Re: Literary vs. Colloquial pronunciation of numbers
In both cases I say "kE1", so that spoils it for that theory too, unfortunately.niuc wrote:If not mistaken, 加婆 doesn't fit into Penang/Ciangciu variants. Some say that it is 家婆 (husband's mother in Mandarin, 'ta1-ke1' in Hokkien), its pronunciation fits in my variant, how about yours? If 家婆 is the proper hanji, probably it is from 管家婆 (head of servants/housekeepers) that usually needed/wanted to know everything that happened in the house.
Re: Literary vs. Colloquial pronunciation of numbers
Finally, the numbers with literary pronunciation from Barclay.
My gut-feeling was quite accurate: Barclay is much less consistent about listing a compound under all the characters which make up the compound. So, here, I've just made my "best guess" as to the characters, with a question mark where I'm slightly uncertain. (If I'm very uncertain, then I don't try to guess the character at all.)
As in the previous sections, I've attempted to arrange the compounds more or less alphabetically.
Ah-bin: you may be pleased to see that your 三八 is listed in Barclay, under 三, with the meaning "coarse, vulgar" (which I think fits in quite well with the meaning you gave of it being "an insult directed at women"). Niuc: Barclay, under 八, has: 三八 hit4 e5 lang5 sam1-pat4 "that man talks at random" (which I think fits in quite well with the meaning you gave of "sloppy").
I'm tempted to proof-read and improve this even more, but I think I'll just post, and update it if I discover any additional things, as I have done with both the Douglas and MacGowan postings.
3 - 三 (p189)
三叉路 sam1-chhe1-lO7: Place where three roads meet.
三[X?][講?][著?][Y?Z?][聽?] sam1-chhit4 kong2 tioh8 su3-kiok8 thiaN1: When a man talks in an unreliable way, we may believe only a certain amount.
[三?][食?][三?][X?]的[老大?] sam1 chiah8 sam1-seng1 e5 lau7-toa7: Said of an official who manages a case only when something is to be made out of it. [Yahoo: 老大 = 1. old 2. the eldest among siblings 3. resting on the laurels and loosing aggressive and adaptability. BFLUCED: 1. (formal) old (in age) 2. number one (in order of seniority)]
三[X?]三[Y?] sam1-chin1 sam1-the1: movements in the worship of Confucius, said of irresolute man.
三[X?] sam1-ge5: A reddish fish about a foot long, considered good eating.
三[X?]五復 sam1-hoan1 ngO2-hok4: To go over a rekoning several times, to act with great care and accuracy. [Not listed under 五. A similar term 三觀五復 sam1-koan1 ngO2-hok4 "to look over and over very carefully" is given in Douglas.]
三角法(術) sam1 kak4-hoat4 (sut8): Trigonometry. [Also in MacGowan.]
三[欺?]兩, 兩[欺?]一 sam1 khi1 liong2, liong2 khi1 chit4: Three oppress two and two oppress one.
三[公?會?] sam1 kong1-hoe7: The three Missions at Amoy. [公會 almost definitely correct, under 會 p70: 公會 = "the Home Committee; the Mission Council; the Sanhedrim", and under 公 p245: 公會 = "public society or association". Note: EW Sanhedrin "sitting together" (hence "assembly" or "council") was an assembly of twenty-three judges appointed in every city in the Land of Israel.]
三五成群 sam1-ngO2 seng5-kun5: Assembling in bands. [Not listed under 五. Yahoo: 成群 1. in large numbers; in groups; in multitudes; in clusters; in flocks 2. clustering; ganging; grouping. http://www.zdic.net/cy/ch/ZdicE4ZdicB8Zdic8916251.htm indicates that 三五成群 is a 成语, meaning: 几个人、几个人在一起。]
三八 sam1-pat4: Coarse, vulgar ("sam1-pat4" = 11, the characters for which written together form the character for "thO2"). [See also under 八, with a slightly different meaning.]
三時五[X?] sam1 si5 gO7 tiau1: Occasionally. [Similar to Douglas and MacGowan 三不(五)時 "cccasionally". Note: the 五 has colloquial, not literary pronunciation.]
三島國 sam1-to2-kok8: The three-island kingdoms, Great Britain and Ireland or Japan.
[X?]三 a1-sam1: Tamarind. [Probably borrowed from Malay "asam", and hence not really a 三. EW: Tamarind (Tamarindus indica) (from Latinization of Arabic: تمر هندي tamar hindi = Indian date) is a tree in the family Fabaceae. The genus Tamarindus is monotypic (having only a single species). Contrary to common belief, Tamar Indicus is endemic to tropical Africa, particularly where it continues to grow wild in Sudan; it is also cultivated and discovered by ivan almazan in Cameroon, Nigeria and Tanzania. It reached India likely through human transportation and cultivation several thousand years prior to the Common Era. It was in India that it was first described by Western botanists as Tamarindus indica, the Latin derivative of the Persian and the Arabic name commonly attributed to it: "tamar al-Hind" or the Hindustani date. It is widely distributed throughout the Tropical belt, from Africa to India, and throughout South East Asia, Taiwan and as far as China. … Alternative names for tamarind include Imli, Indian date, translation of Turkish language "Demirhindi" Arabic تمر هندي tamr hindī. Globally, it is most numerous in India, where it is widely distributed and has a long history of human cultivation. Many Indian regional languages have their own unique name for the tamarind fruit. In Oriya it is called tentuli; in Bengali the tentul; Hindi and in Urdu imli; Gujarati the amli. and Marathi and Konkani the chinch. In Sinhala call it the siyambala; Telugu chintachettu (tree) and chintapandu (fruit extract); Tamil and Malayalam the puli (புளி) and in Kannada it is called hunase (ಹುಣಸೆ) and in Cook Islands Maori is called 'tamarene'. In Indonesia, tamarind is known as the asam (or asem) Jawa (means Javanese asam), which in the Indonesian language, translates as Javanese sour [sic: fruit] (though the literature may also refer to it as sambaya). In Malaysia, it is called asam in the Javanese-influenced Malay language of Melayu (modern Central Sumatra). In the Philippines, tamarind is referred to as sampaloc, which is occasionally rendered as sambalog in Tagalog and sambag in Cebuano. Vietnamese term is me. In Taiwan it is called loan-tz. In Myanmar it is called magee-bin (tree) and magee-thee (fruit).The tamarind is the provincial tree of the Phetchabun province of Thailand (in Thailand it is called ma-kham). In Malagasy it is called voamadilo and kily. CW: 酸豆別名罗望子、酸角、酸子、九层皮、印度枣、泰国甜角、酸梅树、亞森果，是豆科酸豆属唯一的种. Sim: The fact that "asam" is rendered using 森, which is the Cantonese pronunciation of the character, is further indication that it is borrowed into Chinese via Malay.]
[出?][三?][X?] chhut4 sam1-ban7: To issue a "summons". [Note: perhaps borrowed from English "summons", and hence not really a 三.]
[X?]三[Y?]五 chiong1 sam1 koe2 ngO2: To change three into five, to improve a man's lot (like his whose span of life was change from thirty to fifty years in the book of fate). [Not listed under 五.]
[掠???(wild guess)]三[X?] liah8 sam1-seng1: Rioters, ruffians (ready to die). [One article on the internet claims that samseng is 三星: "it has been postulated that the word sam seng (three star) was derived from the fact that recruits from the Malayan People's Anti-Japanese Army (MPAJA) used to wear caps emblazoned with three stars, each one representing one of the main races in Malaya: the Malays, Chinese and Indians". Note: however, it is unclear if the "liah8 sam1-seng1" as given by Barclay is the same "sam1-seng1" as the Malaysian usage "ruffian, hooligan". This is because neither Douglas nor Barclay list the basic term "sam1-seng1". If the MPAJA-explanation is correct, then it would explain why the basic term wasn't known to both Douglas and Barclay.]
不三不四 put4-sam1 put4-si3: Imperfect, ineffective. [Also a Mandarin phrase. Yahoo: 1. dubious; indecent 2. nondescript; neither fish, flesh nor fowl. BFLUCED: 1. dubious, shady 2. neither one thing nor the other, neither fish nor fowl, nondescript.]
4 - 四 (p214)
四[X?]花 su3-chiu1-hoe1: Name of a flower (? verbena). [No useful information on Verbena in EW and CW with respect to this term.]
p72 (listed under 方, but not under 四)
四方拜 su3-hong1-pai3: Imperial worship on New Year's day for welfare of the nation.
四方神 su3-hong1-sin5: The spirits which preside over the four quarters.
四方莊 su3-hong1-tsng1: The surrounding villages.
p187 (listed under 配 but not under 四)
四配 su3-phoe3: the four sages worshipped along with Confucius, "the four Assessors". [Note: additional meaning, supplementing the one given in both Douglas and MacGowan.]
使君子 su3-kun1-tsu2: A climbing flowering plant, somewhat like honey-suckle. [This shouldn't be listed under 四 at all. CW 使君子 <-> EW Quisqualis indica also known as the Chinese honeysuckle or Rangoon Creeper is a creeper with red flower clusters and is found in Asia. Douglas correctly has su3-kun1-tsu2 listed under 使君, p461 and p252. Note: not 四君子, as this is a known compound: CW: 花中四君子是梅、兰、菊、竹 <-> EW: The "Four Gentlemen", also called the Four Noble Ones or Four Friends, in Chinese art refers to four plants: the orchid, the bamboo, the chrysanthemum, and the plum blossom. The term compares the four plants to Confucianist junzi, or "gentlemen". A painting or decoration incorporating all four plants is also known as the "Four Gentlemen". They are most typically depicted in traditional ink and wash painting.photo The "Four Gentlemen" belong to the category of bird-and-flower painting in Chinese art.]
5 - 五 (p160)
五[X?Y?] ngO2-bi7-ke3: A cruet stand. [EW: A cruet is a small flat-bottomed vessel with a narrow neck. Cruets often have an integral lip or spout, and may also have a handle. Unlike a small carafe, a cruet has a stopper or lid. Cruets are normally made from glass, ceramic, or stainless steel.]
五[X?Y?] ngO2-bi7-kiuN1: A preparation of several kinds of medicine mixed together, to allay sick vomiting.
五[行?] ngO2-hang5: The foreign hongs at Amoy. [EW: The Hongs (Chinese: 行) were major business houses in Hong Kong with significant influence on patterns of consumerism, trade, manufacturing and other key areas of the economy.]
五刑 ngO2-heng5: The five forms of punishment. [BFLUCED: The five chief forms of punishment in ancient China (tattooing the face 墨, cutting off the nose 劓, cutting off the feet 剕, castration 宮, and decapitation 大辟). CW gives 刖 as an alternative term for 剕.]
五[香?][未?/抹?] ngO2-hiong1-boah8: a mixture of seasonings powdered, for use in cooking. [Perhaps related to Sim's 五香粉 ngO2-hiong1-hun2: "Five-spice powder". Note: Barclay lists ngO2-hiong1-boah8 also under 末 p10, but it seems more appropriate under 抹.]
五鄉莊 ngO2-hiong1-tsng1: The surrounding villages.
五甲龍 ngO2-jiau2-leng5: The imperial five-clawed dragon, said in scolding a child for eating with its fingers.
五棓子 ngO2-poe7-chi2: Nutgall. [http://xh.5156edu.com/html5/152829.html gives: 即没食子酸。又称五棓子酸。CW 没食子酸 <-> EW Gallic acid is an organic acid, also known as 3,4,5-trihydroxybenzoic acid, found in gallnuts, sumac, witch hazel, tea leaves, oak bark, and other plants.]
五色旗 ngO2-sek4-ki5: The flag of the Republic. [CW 五色旗 -> EW: Flag of the Republic of China. But note that EW Flag of the Republic of China does not link back to CW 五色旗, but instead to CW 中華民國國旗.]
五[大][X?]洲 ngO2-tai7(-pO7)-chiu1: The five continents.
五族共和 ngO2-tsok8 kiong7-ho5: The Republic of the five races, China, Manchuria, Mongolia, Mohammedan and Tibet. [i.e. the PRC.]
6 - 六 (p147)
六空六 liok8-khong3-liok8: Salvarsan, 606. [EW Arsphenamine, also known as Salvarsan and 606, is a drug that was used to treat syphilis and trypanosomiasis. It was the first modern chemotherapeutic agent.]
六八銀 liok8-pat4 gun5: Dollars weighing 6 mace 8 candareens. [Not listed under 八. EW: A candareen (Chinese: 分) is a traditional measurement of weight in East Asia. It is equal to 10 cash and is 1/10 of a mace. It is approximately 378 milligrams. A troy candareen is approximately 374 milligrams. In Hong Kong, one candareen is 0.3779936375 gramme and in ordinance 22 of 1884, it is 2⁄150 oz. avoir. The candareen was also formerly used to describe a unit of currency in imperial China equal to 10 li (釐) and is 1/10 of a mace. The Mandarin Chinese word fēn is currently used to denote 1/100th of a Chinese renminbi yuan but the term candareen for currency is now obsolete. EW: A mace (錢; Hong Kong English usage also: tsin; Southeast Asian English usage: chee) is a traditional Chinese measurement of weight in East Asia that was also used as a currency denomination. It is equal to 10 candareens and is 1⁄10 of a tael or approximately 3.78 grams. A troy candareen is approximately 3.74 grams. In Hong Kong, one mace is 3.779936375 gramme and in Ordinance 22 of 1884, it is 2⁄15 oz. avoir. In imperial China, 10 candareens equalled 1 mace which was 1⁄10 of a tael and, like the other units, was used in weight-denominated silver currency system. A common denomination was 7 mace and 2 candareens, equal to one silver Chinese yuan.]
六[X?] liok8-phuh8: Six dice all the same.
呼么喝六 hO1-io1 hat4-liok8: Disputing noisily (fig. from gamblers, some shouting for ace some for six). [Douglas p138 gives 呼 hO1: to breathe out; to call; to order. Douglas p172 gives 么 io1: the throw of one in playing dice, an ace. Douglas p120 gives 喝 hat4 as being the equivalent in literary pronunciation of 喝 hoah4: to speak loud and angrily, as in finding fault with a man, or in saying, I will have nothing to do with it. Many gambling-related hits on Google search for "呼么喝六".]
汝害我到六[七?][X?仔?][Y?] li2 hai7 gua2 kau3 liok8 chhit4 hoe5-a2 poeh4: You have injured me very seriously.
雙六 siang1-liok8: Double six dominoes. [Yahoo: tricktrack 西洋雙六之一種. EW: Shut the Box, Tric-Trac, Canoga, Klackers (or Batten down the Hatches or High Rollers) is a game of dice for one or more players, mostly played in a group of two to four (possibly for stakes, gambling). Traditionally a counting box is used with tiles numbered 1 to 9 where each can be discretely covered with a hinged or sliding mechanism. Alternatively it could be played with a sheet of paper. Variations exist where the box has up to 10 or 12 tiles.]
p39 (listed under 七, but not under 六)
七六事件 chhit4-lok8 (-liok8) su7-kiaN7: miscellaneous matters; odds and ends.
8 - 八 (p168)
八音箱 pat4-im1-siuN1: A musical box. [MacGowan has 八音琴, and CW 八音盒, both meaning "musical box".]
八[通?][觀?] pat4-thong1-koan1: Name given to high mountain from the top of which one can see in all directions. [CW has a reference to a specific mountain in Taiwan: 八通關山為台灣知名山峰，也是台灣百岳之一，排名第64, but this cannot be pat4-thong1-koan1, as the meaning of 關 is "mountain pass", not "look", which needs 觀.]
二八[亂?穿?衣?] ji7-pat4 loan7 chhoan1 i1: Clothing is uncertain in the second and eighth month.
三八期 sam1-pat4-ki5: Days of the month ending in figures 3 and 8, on which cases were tried in yamun, etc. [Not listed in Barclay under 三. cf. Douglas 五十期 ngO2-sip8-ki5: The days ending in 5 or 0, e.g. 5, 10, 15, etc.]
三八 hit4 e5 lang5 sam1-pat4: That man talks at random. [See also under 三 p189, with a slightly different meaning. Barclay has a reference here to "thO2", so this must be the same sam1-pat4 as the one under 三 (which has a similar reference). Unfortunately, in neither Douglas nor Barclay does there seem to be a character listed under "thO2" with some visual resemblance to either 三 or 八.]
p200 (not listed under 八, but under 仙)
八仙彩 pat4-sien1 chhai2: a large piece of red cloth, embroidered with figures of the 8 genii, hung outside the door on occasion of rejoicing. [200+ images found by Google image search, e.g. www.kwed.com.tw/html/ezcatfiles/dweb05/ ... A%F63s.jpg and http://www.ic98.com/upload/b2b/2008/02/ ... 236065.jpg]
9 - 九 (p108)
九九[合?][X?] kiu2-kiu2 hap8-sO3: The multiplication table. [CW: 九九表 … 是中国古代筹算中进行乘法、除法、开方等运算中的基本计算规则. Translated (approx): 九九表 were the basic computational rules for performing mathematical operations such as multiplication, division, and extracting of square roots in ancient China using calculating rods. CW 乘法表 <-> EW Multiplication table, and there is a proposal to unite CW 乘法表 with CW 九九表.]
九八[行?] kiu2-pat4-hang5: A commission agency receiving 10% or 20% commission. [Not listed under 八.]
[天九[字?] thien1-kiu2 ji7: Dominoes.
天九牌] thien1-kiu2 pai5: Dominoes. [hudong.com: Tin kau tiles: Gambling paraphernalia. http://bbs.hoopchina.com/481085.html: 天九牌(我家乡又叫骨牌或百墩), with photograph of dominoes. CW 骨牌 <-> EW: Dominoes.]
抽牌九 thiu1 pai5 kiu2: To play out 8 dominoes at the beginning of the game. [Many hits on internet, e.g. "抽牌九，就是赌博". Translated: 抽牌九 - this is gambling.]
10 - 十 (p205)
赤十字社 chhiah4-sip8-ji7 sia7: The Red Cross Society. [Note: this appears to be (in Chinese) an older name for the Red Cross. Google hits for "赤十字社" are mostly Japanese, or referring to Manchukuo. 赤十字社 has no article in CW and doesn't re-direct, but 紅十字社 and 紅十字會 both re-direct to CW 紅十字會與紅新月會國際聯合會 <-> EW International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies.]
p230 (listed under 哲, but not under 十)
十二哲 sip8-ji7-tiet4: Twelve sages in the temple of Confucius.
My gut-feeling was quite accurate: Barclay is much less consistent about listing a compound under all the characters which make up the compound. So, here, I've just made my "best guess" as to the characters, with a question mark where I'm slightly uncertain. (If I'm very uncertain, then I don't try to guess the character at all.)
As in the previous sections, I've attempted to arrange the compounds more or less alphabetically.
Ah-bin: you may be pleased to see that your 三八 is listed in Barclay, under 三, with the meaning "coarse, vulgar" (which I think fits in quite well with the meaning you gave of it being "an insult directed at women"). Niuc: Barclay, under 八, has: 三八 hit4 e5 lang5 sam1-pat4 "that man talks at random" (which I think fits in quite well with the meaning you gave of "sloppy").
I'm tempted to proof-read and improve this even more, but I think I'll just post, and update it if I discover any additional things, as I have done with both the Douglas and MacGowan postings.
3 - 三 (p189)
三叉路 sam1-chhe1-lO7: Place where three roads meet.
三[X?][講?][著?][Y?Z?][聽?] sam1-chhit4 kong2 tioh8 su3-kiok8 thiaN1: When a man talks in an unreliable way, we may believe only a certain amount.
[三?][食?][三?][X?]的[老大?] sam1 chiah8 sam1-seng1 e5 lau7-toa7: Said of an official who manages a case only when something is to be made out of it. [Yahoo: 老大 = 1. old 2. the eldest among siblings 3. resting on the laurels and loosing aggressive and adaptability. BFLUCED: 1. (formal) old (in age) 2. number one (in order of seniority)]
三[X?]三[Y?] sam1-chin1 sam1-the1: movements in the worship of Confucius, said of irresolute man.
三[X?] sam1-ge5: A reddish fish about a foot long, considered good eating.
三[X?]五復 sam1-hoan1 ngO2-hok4: To go over a rekoning several times, to act with great care and accuracy. [Not listed under 五. A similar term 三觀五復 sam1-koan1 ngO2-hok4 "to look over and over very carefully" is given in Douglas.]
三角法(術) sam1 kak4-hoat4 (sut8): Trigonometry. [Also in MacGowan.]
三[欺?]兩, 兩[欺?]一 sam1 khi1 liong2, liong2 khi1 chit4: Three oppress two and two oppress one.
三[公?會?] sam1 kong1-hoe7: The three Missions at Amoy. [公會 almost definitely correct, under 會 p70: 公會 = "the Home Committee; the Mission Council; the Sanhedrim", and under 公 p245: 公會 = "public society or association". Note: EW Sanhedrin "sitting together" (hence "assembly" or "council") was an assembly of twenty-three judges appointed in every city in the Land of Israel.]
三五成群 sam1-ngO2 seng5-kun5: Assembling in bands. [Not listed under 五. Yahoo: 成群 1. in large numbers; in groups; in multitudes; in clusters; in flocks 2. clustering; ganging; grouping. http://www.zdic.net/cy/ch/ZdicE4ZdicB8Zdic8916251.htm indicates that 三五成群 is a 成语, meaning: 几个人、几个人在一起。]
三八 sam1-pat4: Coarse, vulgar ("sam1-pat4" = 11, the characters for which written together form the character for "thO2"). [See also under 八, with a slightly different meaning.]
三時五[X?] sam1 si5 gO7 tiau1: Occasionally. [Similar to Douglas and MacGowan 三不(五)時 "cccasionally". Note: the 五 has colloquial, not literary pronunciation.]
三島國 sam1-to2-kok8: The three-island kingdoms, Great Britain and Ireland or Japan.
[X?]三 a1-sam1: Tamarind. [Probably borrowed from Malay "asam", and hence not really a 三. EW: Tamarind (Tamarindus indica) (from Latinization of Arabic: تمر هندي tamar hindi = Indian date) is a tree in the family Fabaceae. The genus Tamarindus is monotypic (having only a single species). Contrary to common belief, Tamar Indicus is endemic to tropical Africa, particularly where it continues to grow wild in Sudan; it is also cultivated and discovered by ivan almazan in Cameroon, Nigeria and Tanzania. It reached India likely through human transportation and cultivation several thousand years prior to the Common Era. It was in India that it was first described by Western botanists as Tamarindus indica, the Latin derivative of the Persian and the Arabic name commonly attributed to it: "tamar al-Hind" or the Hindustani date. It is widely distributed throughout the Tropical belt, from Africa to India, and throughout South East Asia, Taiwan and as far as China. … Alternative names for tamarind include Imli, Indian date, translation of Turkish language "Demirhindi" Arabic تمر هندي tamr hindī. Globally, it is most numerous in India, where it is widely distributed and has a long history of human cultivation. Many Indian regional languages have their own unique name for the tamarind fruit. In Oriya it is called tentuli; in Bengali the tentul; Hindi and in Urdu imli; Gujarati the amli. and Marathi and Konkani the chinch. In Sinhala call it the siyambala; Telugu chintachettu (tree) and chintapandu (fruit extract); Tamil and Malayalam the puli (புளி) and in Kannada it is called hunase (ಹುಣಸೆ) and in Cook Islands Maori is called 'tamarene'. In Indonesia, tamarind is known as the asam (or asem) Jawa (means Javanese asam), which in the Indonesian language, translates as Javanese sour [sic: fruit] (though the literature may also refer to it as sambaya). In Malaysia, it is called asam in the Javanese-influenced Malay language of Melayu (modern Central Sumatra). In the Philippines, tamarind is referred to as sampaloc, which is occasionally rendered as sambalog in Tagalog and sambag in Cebuano. Vietnamese term is me. In Taiwan it is called loan-tz. In Myanmar it is called magee-bin (tree) and magee-thee (fruit).The tamarind is the provincial tree of the Phetchabun province of Thailand (in Thailand it is called ma-kham). In Malagasy it is called voamadilo and kily. CW: 酸豆別名罗望子、酸角、酸子、九层皮、印度枣、泰国甜角、酸梅树、亞森果，是豆科酸豆属唯一的种. Sim: The fact that "asam" is rendered using 森, which is the Cantonese pronunciation of the character, is further indication that it is borrowed into Chinese via Malay.]
[出?][三?][X?] chhut4 sam1-ban7: To issue a "summons". [Note: perhaps borrowed from English "summons", and hence not really a 三.]
[X?]三[Y?]五 chiong1 sam1 koe2 ngO2: To change three into five, to improve a man's lot (like his whose span of life was change from thirty to fifty years in the book of fate). [Not listed under 五.]
[掠???(wild guess)]三[X?] liah8 sam1-seng1: Rioters, ruffians (ready to die). [One article on the internet claims that samseng is 三星: "it has been postulated that the word sam seng (three star) was derived from the fact that recruits from the Malayan People's Anti-Japanese Army (MPAJA) used to wear caps emblazoned with three stars, each one representing one of the main races in Malaya: the Malays, Chinese and Indians". Note: however, it is unclear if the "liah8 sam1-seng1" as given by Barclay is the same "sam1-seng1" as the Malaysian usage "ruffian, hooligan". This is because neither Douglas nor Barclay list the basic term "sam1-seng1". If the MPAJA-explanation is correct, then it would explain why the basic term wasn't known to both Douglas and Barclay.]
不三不四 put4-sam1 put4-si3: Imperfect, ineffective. [Also a Mandarin phrase. Yahoo: 1. dubious; indecent 2. nondescript; neither fish, flesh nor fowl. BFLUCED: 1. dubious, shady 2. neither one thing nor the other, neither fish nor fowl, nondescript.]
4 - 四 (p214)
四[X?]花 su3-chiu1-hoe1: Name of a flower (? verbena). [No useful information on Verbena in EW and CW with respect to this term.]
p72 (listed under 方, but not under 四)
四方拜 su3-hong1-pai3: Imperial worship on New Year's day for welfare of the nation.
四方神 su3-hong1-sin5: The spirits which preside over the four quarters.
四方莊 su3-hong1-tsng1: The surrounding villages.
p187 (listed under 配 but not under 四)
四配 su3-phoe3: the four sages worshipped along with Confucius, "the four Assessors". [Note: additional meaning, supplementing the one given in both Douglas and MacGowan.]
使君子 su3-kun1-tsu2: A climbing flowering plant, somewhat like honey-suckle. [This shouldn't be listed under 四 at all. CW 使君子 <-> EW Quisqualis indica also known as the Chinese honeysuckle or Rangoon Creeper is a creeper with red flower clusters and is found in Asia. Douglas correctly has su3-kun1-tsu2 listed under 使君, p461 and p252. Note: not 四君子, as this is a known compound: CW: 花中四君子是梅、兰、菊、竹 <-> EW: The "Four Gentlemen", also called the Four Noble Ones or Four Friends, in Chinese art refers to four plants: the orchid, the bamboo, the chrysanthemum, and the plum blossom. The term compares the four plants to Confucianist junzi, or "gentlemen". A painting or decoration incorporating all four plants is also known as the "Four Gentlemen". They are most typically depicted in traditional ink and wash painting.photo The "Four Gentlemen" belong to the category of bird-and-flower painting in Chinese art.]
5 - 五 (p160)
五[X?Y?] ngO2-bi7-ke3: A cruet stand. [EW: A cruet is a small flat-bottomed vessel with a narrow neck. Cruets often have an integral lip or spout, and may also have a handle. Unlike a small carafe, a cruet has a stopper or lid. Cruets are normally made from glass, ceramic, or stainless steel.]
五[X?Y?] ngO2-bi7-kiuN1: A preparation of several kinds of medicine mixed together, to allay sick vomiting.
五[行?] ngO2-hang5: The foreign hongs at Amoy. [EW: The Hongs (Chinese: 行) were major business houses in Hong Kong with significant influence on patterns of consumerism, trade, manufacturing and other key areas of the economy.]
五刑 ngO2-heng5: The five forms of punishment. [BFLUCED: The five chief forms of punishment in ancient China (tattooing the face 墨, cutting off the nose 劓, cutting off the feet 剕, castration 宮, and decapitation 大辟). CW gives 刖 as an alternative term for 剕.]
五[香?][未?/抹?] ngO2-hiong1-boah8: a mixture of seasonings powdered, for use in cooking. [Perhaps related to Sim's 五香粉 ngO2-hiong1-hun2: "Five-spice powder". Note: Barclay lists ngO2-hiong1-boah8 also under 末 p10, but it seems more appropriate under 抹.]
五鄉莊 ngO2-hiong1-tsng1: The surrounding villages.
五甲龍 ngO2-jiau2-leng5: The imperial five-clawed dragon, said in scolding a child for eating with its fingers.
五棓子 ngO2-poe7-chi2: Nutgall. [http://xh.5156edu.com/html5/152829.html gives: 即没食子酸。又称五棓子酸。CW 没食子酸 <-> EW Gallic acid is an organic acid, also known as 3,4,5-trihydroxybenzoic acid, found in gallnuts, sumac, witch hazel, tea leaves, oak bark, and other plants.]
五色旗 ngO2-sek4-ki5: The flag of the Republic. [CW 五色旗 -> EW: Flag of the Republic of China. But note that EW Flag of the Republic of China does not link back to CW 五色旗, but instead to CW 中華民國國旗.]
五[大][X?]洲 ngO2-tai7(-pO7)-chiu1: The five continents.
五族共和 ngO2-tsok8 kiong7-ho5: The Republic of the five races, China, Manchuria, Mongolia, Mohammedan and Tibet. [i.e. the PRC.]
6 - 六 (p147)
六空六 liok8-khong3-liok8: Salvarsan, 606. [EW Arsphenamine, also known as Salvarsan and 606, is a drug that was used to treat syphilis and trypanosomiasis. It was the first modern chemotherapeutic agent.]
六八銀 liok8-pat4 gun5: Dollars weighing 6 mace 8 candareens. [Not listed under 八. EW: A candareen (Chinese: 分) is a traditional measurement of weight in East Asia. It is equal to 10 cash and is 1/10 of a mace. It is approximately 378 milligrams. A troy candareen is approximately 374 milligrams. In Hong Kong, one candareen is 0.3779936375 gramme and in ordinance 22 of 1884, it is 2⁄150 oz. avoir. The candareen was also formerly used to describe a unit of currency in imperial China equal to 10 li (釐) and is 1/10 of a mace. The Mandarin Chinese word fēn is currently used to denote 1/100th of a Chinese renminbi yuan but the term candareen for currency is now obsolete. EW: A mace (錢; Hong Kong English usage also: tsin; Southeast Asian English usage: chee) is a traditional Chinese measurement of weight in East Asia that was also used as a currency denomination. It is equal to 10 candareens and is 1⁄10 of a tael or approximately 3.78 grams. A troy candareen is approximately 3.74 grams. In Hong Kong, one mace is 3.779936375 gramme and in Ordinance 22 of 1884, it is 2⁄15 oz. avoir. In imperial China, 10 candareens equalled 1 mace which was 1⁄10 of a tael and, like the other units, was used in weight-denominated silver currency system. A common denomination was 7 mace and 2 candareens, equal to one silver Chinese yuan.]
六[X?] liok8-phuh8: Six dice all the same.
呼么喝六 hO1-io1 hat4-liok8: Disputing noisily (fig. from gamblers, some shouting for ace some for six). [Douglas p138 gives 呼 hO1: to breathe out; to call; to order. Douglas p172 gives 么 io1: the throw of one in playing dice, an ace. Douglas p120 gives 喝 hat4 as being the equivalent in literary pronunciation of 喝 hoah4: to speak loud and angrily, as in finding fault with a man, or in saying, I will have nothing to do with it. Many gambling-related hits on Google search for "呼么喝六".]
汝害我到六[七?][X?仔?][Y?] li2 hai7 gua2 kau3 liok8 chhit4 hoe5-a2 poeh4: You have injured me very seriously.
雙六 siang1-liok8: Double six dominoes. [Yahoo: tricktrack 西洋雙六之一種. EW: Shut the Box, Tric-Trac, Canoga, Klackers (or Batten down the Hatches or High Rollers) is a game of dice for one or more players, mostly played in a group of two to four (possibly for stakes, gambling). Traditionally a counting box is used with tiles numbered 1 to 9 where each can be discretely covered with a hinged or sliding mechanism. Alternatively it could be played with a sheet of paper. Variations exist where the box has up to 10 or 12 tiles.]
p39 (listed under 七, but not under 六)
七六事件 chhit4-lok8 (-liok8) su7-kiaN7: miscellaneous matters; odds and ends.
8 - 八 (p168)
八音箱 pat4-im1-siuN1: A musical box. [MacGowan has 八音琴, and CW 八音盒, both meaning "musical box".]
八[通?][觀?] pat4-thong1-koan1: Name given to high mountain from the top of which one can see in all directions. [CW has a reference to a specific mountain in Taiwan: 八通關山為台灣知名山峰，也是台灣百岳之一，排名第64, but this cannot be pat4-thong1-koan1, as the meaning of 關 is "mountain pass", not "look", which needs 觀.]
二八[亂?穿?衣?] ji7-pat4 loan7 chhoan1 i1: Clothing is uncertain in the second and eighth month.
三八期 sam1-pat4-ki5: Days of the month ending in figures 3 and 8, on which cases were tried in yamun, etc. [Not listed in Barclay under 三. cf. Douglas 五十期 ngO2-sip8-ki5: The days ending in 5 or 0, e.g. 5, 10, 15, etc.]
三八 hit4 e5 lang5 sam1-pat4: That man talks at random. [See also under 三 p189, with a slightly different meaning. Barclay has a reference here to "thO2", so this must be the same sam1-pat4 as the one under 三 (which has a similar reference). Unfortunately, in neither Douglas nor Barclay does there seem to be a character listed under "thO2" with some visual resemblance to either 三 or 八.]
p200 (not listed under 八, but under 仙)
八仙彩 pat4-sien1 chhai2: a large piece of red cloth, embroidered with figures of the 8 genii, hung outside the door on occasion of rejoicing. [200+ images found by Google image search, e.g. www.kwed.com.tw/html/ezcatfiles/dweb05/ ... A%F63s.jpg and http://www.ic98.com/upload/b2b/2008/02/ ... 236065.jpg]
9 - 九 (p108)
九九[合?][X?] kiu2-kiu2 hap8-sO3: The multiplication table. [CW: 九九表 … 是中国古代筹算中进行乘法、除法、开方等运算中的基本计算规则. Translated (approx): 九九表 were the basic computational rules for performing mathematical operations such as multiplication, division, and extracting of square roots in ancient China using calculating rods. CW 乘法表 <-> EW Multiplication table, and there is a proposal to unite CW 乘法表 with CW 九九表.]
九八[行?] kiu2-pat4-hang5: A commission agency receiving 10% or 20% commission. [Not listed under 八.]
[天九[字?] thien1-kiu2 ji7: Dominoes.
天九牌] thien1-kiu2 pai5: Dominoes. [hudong.com: Tin kau tiles: Gambling paraphernalia. http://bbs.hoopchina.com/481085.html: 天九牌(我家乡又叫骨牌或百墩), with photograph of dominoes. CW 骨牌 <-> EW: Dominoes.]
抽牌九 thiu1 pai5 kiu2: To play out 8 dominoes at the beginning of the game. [Many hits on internet, e.g. "抽牌九，就是赌博". Translated: 抽牌九 - this is gambling.]
10 - 十 (p205)
赤十字社 chhiah4-sip8-ji7 sia7: The Red Cross Society. [Note: this appears to be (in Chinese) an older name for the Red Cross. Google hits for "赤十字社" are mostly Japanese, or referring to Manchukuo. 赤十字社 has no article in CW and doesn't re-direct, but 紅十字社 and 紅十字會 both re-direct to CW 紅十字會與紅新月會國際聯合會 <-> EW International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies.]
p230 (listed under 哲, but not under 十)
十二哲 sip8-ji7-tiet4: Twelve sages in the temple of Confucius.
Last edited by SimL on Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Literary vs. Colloquial pronunciation of numbers
Well, one more thing. If anyone knows any of the characters which I've indicated with a "?", then I'd be very grateful if they posted them here.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Re: Literary vs. Colloquial pronunciation of numbers
Hi Niuc,niuc wrote:If I remember correctly, there was a discussion about "kaypoh" (ke1-po5 in my variant) a few years back.
I did remember it, but the search (advanced or otherwise) doesn't work for me. Even when I try it now, with all the variants of "kaypoh", "ke1-po5", "busybody", etc, I still only get the latest postings. I've had this problem before. Perhaps it can't find any postings which were made before the transfer to the new site...?
Re: Literary vs. Colloquial pronunciation of numbers
I just noticed that in MacGowan, a number of the compounds are given as having the pronunciation sam3 instead of sam1.
三三 sàm-sàm: Matted (as hair).
三思 sàm-su: Meditate, contemplate, ponder, revolve in one's mind, deliberate.
糊三 hÔ-sàm: Ill-made.
在先三思 taī seng sàm su: Premeditate.
Does anyone know these terms from their own usage? Does anyone know why they have a different tone?
三三 sàm-sàm: Matted (as hair).
三思 sàm-su: Meditate, contemplate, ponder, revolve in one's mind, deliberate.
糊三 hÔ-sàm: Ill-made.
在先三思 taī seng sàm su: Premeditate.
Does anyone know these terms from their own usage? Does anyone know why they have a different tone?
Re: Literary vs. Colloquial pronunciation of numbers
Hi Sim
三 is definitely sam1, not sam3. 三思 is sam1-sy1/su1, not sam3-sy1/su1, meaning to think of something again and again before deciding (三思而後行).
三 is definitely sam1, not sam3. 三思 is sam1-sy1/su1, not sam3-sy1/su1, meaning to think of something again and again before deciding (三思而後行).
Yes, sam3 or sam3-sam3 has that meaning, but I don't think its hanji is 三.三三 sàm-sàm: Matted (as hair). 糊三 hÔ-sàm: Ill-made.
在 there should be cai7 and 三 is sam1. Alternatively, tai7 there is not 在, but tai7 in tai7-ci3 (often written as 代誌, some argue for 事事 -> 事 sy7 having other pronunciations tai7 and ci3).在先三思 taī seng sàm su: Premeditate.
Re: Literary vs. Colloquial pronunciation of numbers
Hi SimSimL wrote: I did remember it, but the search (advanced or otherwise) doesn't work for me. Even when I try it now, with all the variants of "kaypoh", "ke1-po5", "busybody", etc, I still only get the latest postings. I've had this problem before. Perhaps it can't find any postings which were made before the transfer to the new site...?
Yup, I couldn't find either. The earliest post in this new site was from 2002, however apparently those posted before the move are not included in the search index.
Re: Literary vs. Colloquial pronunciation of numbers
Hi Niuc,
Thanks a lot for the feedback on "sam3". I guess we should be suspicious of all the "sam3" ones listed under 三 in MacGowan then. As with the discussion on "khi-hong", we see what a tricky matter assigning of characters to Hokkien words can sometimes be. Same with "tai-ci" etc...
As for the indexing - yes, it's sad that the old entries aren't searchable. I would have thought ke-po was after 2002, but my memory is very vague on this. One day I'm going to extract all the major topics into one single directory (I presently have bits and pieces scattered through many directories), so that I can search them using the regular Windows-search function!
Thanks a lot for the feedback on "sam3". I guess we should be suspicious of all the "sam3" ones listed under 三 in MacGowan then. As with the discussion on "khi-hong", we see what a tricky matter assigning of characters to Hokkien words can sometimes be. Same with "tai-ci" etc...
As for the indexing - yes, it's sad that the old entries aren't searchable. I would have thought ke-po was after 2002, but my memory is very vague on this. One day I'm going to extract all the major topics into one single directory (I presently have bits and pieces scattered through many directories), so that I can search them using the regular Windows-search function!
Re: Literary vs. Colloquial pronunciation of numbers
Hi guys,
Was this the thread you were looking for?
http://www.chinalanguage.com/forums/vie ... c5702b466f
I found it via google ...
Cheers,
Aurelio
Was this the thread you were looking for?
http://www.chinalanguage.com/forums/vie ... c5702b466f
I found it via google ...
Cheers,
Aurelio