It is the same as 追/楷. fat5 and bot5 are both readings of the same character, but bot5 is a remanent of an older stratum of Hakka, harking back to the time when there were no f- initial sounds in Chinese.
Dyl.
Translations
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Leslie Chong
Re: Translations
Dylan: Thanks for your excellent explanation. We also use "fat vun" but somehow "fat tai fung" does not sound correct! Do you think it is the same "bod" character?
As to the missing initial "f" sound, some natives in S.E. Asia do not pronounce an initial f, it comes out as 'p" and sometimes "b". And to imagine that their ancestors also came down from mainland Asia!
As to the missing initial "f" sound, some natives in S.E. Asia do not pronounce an initial f, it comes out as 'p" and sometimes "b". And to imagine that their ancestors also came down from mainland Asia!
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Thomas Chin
Re: Translations
It's all the same /bod5/.
Another example of f = p is for Hakka speakers in parts of Indonesia. E.g. /fong5/ (to place) is pronounced as [bong5] with the 'b' sound somewhere in between Hakka [p] and [p'].
/../ Lau Chunfat's Hagfa pinyim
[ ..] IPA
Regards,
Thomas
Another example of f = p is for Hakka speakers in parts of Indonesia. E.g. /fong5/ (to place) is pronounced as [bong5] with the 'b' sound somewhere in between Hakka [p] and [p'].
/../ Lau Chunfat's Hagfa pinyim
[ ..] IPA
Regards,
Thomas
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Leslie Chong
Re: Translations
Thomas - Thanks for confirming this. I still think "bod tai fung" sounds more correct than "fat tai fung".
Also for Dylan: I think there are some other double pronounciations in Hakka, please confirm if you have come across them: 1-For the word "cheng" as in "cheng gong (successful)" it seems we can say "sing gung" or we can "sang gung".
2-For the word "guo" ("country", "state") we can say "gok" or "gek" (Sin On Hakka) or "guok" or "guek" (Moi Yen).
Also for Dylan: I think there are some other double pronounciations in Hakka, please confirm if you have come across them: 1-For the word "cheng" as in "cheng gong (successful)" it seems we can say "sing gung" or we can "sang gung".
2-For the word "guo" ("country", "state") we can say "gok" or "gek" (Sin On Hakka) or "guok" or "guek" (Moi Yen).
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Dylan Sung
Re: Translations
Yes, you're right.
sin/sang and other words like it belong to a Middle Chinese (MC) group of rhymes which depend on the vowel in reading.
One reading often ends in -in or -en, the other often ends in -ang.
In the country gwok/gwet (ends in t), Hakka -it ending like eat (sit6) come from rimes where the original ending was something like [sik] as in Cantonese. Other vowels you see this happening to is MC [@k] as well which become [et] in Hakka.
Both these groups (ending in -n and -k) belong to the same broad rime group. I'll talk more of this later. Kinda rushed now.
Dyl.
sin/sang and other words like it belong to a Middle Chinese (MC) group of rhymes which depend on the vowel in reading.
One reading often ends in -in or -en, the other often ends in -ang.
In the country gwok/gwet (ends in t), Hakka -it ending like eat (sit6) come from rimes where the original ending was something like [sik] as in Cantonese. Other vowels you see this happening to is MC [@k] as well which become [et] in Hakka.
Both these groups (ending in -n and -k) belong to the same broad rime group. I'll talk more of this later. Kinda rushed now.
Dyl.
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Thomas Chin
Re: Translations
Also take note that characters sometimes have a literary reading and a colloquial pronunciation.
/bod5/ is such an example.
The literary sound is /fad5/, so when reading texts, Hakka teachers used to teach it to read it as /fad5/ (e.g /fad5 tai3 fung1/) 50 years ago. But in spoken Hakka you say /bod5 tai3 fung1/. In my dialect we do not say /fad5 tai3 fung1/.
Nowadays, linguists consider the use of colloquial pronunciations for reading also correct, so reading /bod5 tai3 fung1/ is not considered wrong.
Regards,
Thomas
/bod5/ is such an example.
The literary sound is /fad5/, so when reading texts, Hakka teachers used to teach it to read it as /fad5/ (e.g /fad5 tai3 fung1/) 50 years ago. But in spoken Hakka you say /bod5 tai3 fung1/. In my dialect we do not say /fad5 tai3 fung1/.
Nowadays, linguists consider the use of colloquial pronunciations for reading also correct, so reading /bod5 tai3 fung1/ is not considered wrong.
Regards,
Thomas
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Dylan Sung
Re: Translations
Right, let me first introduce some stuff about Middle Chinese sound system. It is summed up in my pages (see Historical Chinese Phonology/Philology section of)
http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/chinese
In the table on Guangyun rimes
http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/chinese/gy-pshy.htm
the 206 rimes of Guangyun are found in the center. They were later reduced by merging some of them together to give 106 rimes known as the PingShui rimes found on the far right. Later, the whole list of rimes were simplified to form rime categories, known as the 16 She. The main types of endings -m, -n, -ng, -p, -t, -k, and vowels type ending, and depend on vowel heights too.
The way Hakka has developed has meant the colloquial and literary readings that Thomas talks about. The main group of rime category types which exhibit dual reading characters (and difference in endings) come from the 梗 She (12 in the table on the far left column).
It incorporates the rime types no.44 庚 梗 映 , no. 45 耕 耿 諍, no. 46. 清 靜勁, no. 47 青 迥 徑 , whose Ru type counterparts 陌, 麥, 昔, 錫 respectively, and the ・She (13 in the far left column) type rimes, incorporating no. 48 蒸 拯 證 and no. 49 登 等 嶝 type rimes whose Ru type counterparts are 職 and 德 respectively.
In She 12 梗 and 13 ・ the characters often have dual readings for example the festival of Qing Ming is cin min in some dialects of Hakka, but ciang miang in other dialects. Both readings cin/ciang and min/miang are therefore derived from the same source. Somewhere down the line, Hakka -ng ending rimes and -k ending rimes become merged with -k and -t ending rimes respectively, hence gwok/gwet, and sang/sin.
Note that where the original -ng or -k ending occurs, the vowels are often low vowels (-a-). But where they've changed to -n and -t respectively, a mid level vowel (-e-) or high vowel (-i-) and probably some on-glide (-ie-) is responsible.
So, 職 is /tsik/ in Cantonese, but /tsit/ in Hakka. Cantonese is thus more conservative, since the original -k ending is retained. Hakka has a high vowel notice the change in ending.
錫 is /sek/ in Cantonese, but /siak/ in Hakka. Notice Hakka has a low vowel /-a-/ and the ending is preserved.
Dyl.
http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/chinese
In the table on Guangyun rimes
http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/chinese/gy-pshy.htm
the 206 rimes of Guangyun are found in the center. They were later reduced by merging some of them together to give 106 rimes known as the PingShui rimes found on the far right. Later, the whole list of rimes were simplified to form rime categories, known as the 16 She. The main types of endings -m, -n, -ng, -p, -t, -k, and vowels type ending, and depend on vowel heights too.
The way Hakka has developed has meant the colloquial and literary readings that Thomas talks about. The main group of rime category types which exhibit dual reading characters (and difference in endings) come from the 梗 She (12 in the table on the far left column).
It incorporates the rime types no.44 庚 梗 映 , no. 45 耕 耿 諍, no. 46. 清 靜勁, no. 47 青 迥 徑 , whose Ru type counterparts 陌, 麥, 昔, 錫 respectively, and the ・She (13 in the far left column) type rimes, incorporating no. 48 蒸 拯 證 and no. 49 登 等 嶝 type rimes whose Ru type counterparts are 職 and 德 respectively.
In She 12 梗 and 13 ・ the characters often have dual readings for example the festival of Qing Ming is cin min in some dialects of Hakka, but ciang miang in other dialects. Both readings cin/ciang and min/miang are therefore derived from the same source. Somewhere down the line, Hakka -ng ending rimes and -k ending rimes become merged with -k and -t ending rimes respectively, hence gwok/gwet, and sang/sin.
Note that where the original -ng or -k ending occurs, the vowels are often low vowels (-a-). But where they've changed to -n and -t respectively, a mid level vowel (-e-) or high vowel (-i-) and probably some on-glide (-ie-) is responsible.
So, 職 is /tsik/ in Cantonese, but /tsit/ in Hakka. Cantonese is thus more conservative, since the original -k ending is retained. Hakka has a high vowel notice the change in ending.
錫 is /sek/ in Cantonese, but /siak/ in Hakka. Notice Hakka has a low vowel /-a-/ and the ending is preserved.
Dyl.
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Dylan Sung
Re: Translations
I do not know what happened but it all became encoded in Japanese!
For the latter two examples, Cantonese/Hakka words
tsik/tsit is work or profession,
sek/siak is the metal 'tin'.
For country gwok/guet see Hakka has a front mid vowel. I forgot to mention it has to be "front" and mid-high for there to be a change in Hakka's end consonant from -ng to -n or -k to -t.
see the vowel chart
http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/chinese/vchart.htm
Dyl.
For the latter two examples, Cantonese/Hakka words
tsik/tsit is work or profession,
sek/siak is the metal 'tin'.
For country gwok/guet see Hakka has a front mid vowel. I forgot to mention it has to be "front" and mid-high for there to be a change in Hakka's end consonant from -ng to -n or -k to -t.
see the vowel chart
http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/chinese/vchart.htm
Dyl.
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Koo
Translation
Hi Thomas ,
Iam Hakka from Brunei Darussalam. My father from Guangdong province. He arrived at Brunei before world war 2, he married local woman i.e my mother who is not chinese. My father died about 18 yrs ago.We speak a mixture of Hakka and malay but more malay than hakka. Yr translations as well as Dylan have helped me a lot not only to recall but learn new words and phrases - I copy them especially the everyday words and phrases into my notebook - to prepare myself to visit my long lost family (from my father first marriage) whom we manage to contact lately. They live somewhere in the county of Meizhou. Would u translate some more everyday words if u have time
Thank you.
Koo
Iam Hakka from Brunei Darussalam. My father from Guangdong province. He arrived at Brunei before world war 2, he married local woman i.e my mother who is not chinese. My father died about 18 yrs ago.We speak a mixture of Hakka and malay but more malay than hakka. Yr translations as well as Dylan have helped me a lot not only to recall but learn new words and phrases - I copy them especially the everyday words and phrases into my notebook - to prepare myself to visit my long lost family (from my father first marriage) whom we manage to contact lately. They live somewhere in the county of Meizhou. Would u translate some more everyday words if u have time
Thank you.
Koo
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Thomas
Re: Translation
I suggest to post them on the forum, so people can have a look at them, if you don't mind.Koo wrote:Hi Thomas ,
Iam Hakka from Brunei Darussalam. My father from Guangdong province. He arrived at Brunei before world war 2, he married local woman i.e my mother who is not chinese. My father died about 18 yrs ago.We speak a mixture of Hakka and malay but more malay than hakka. Yr translations as well as Dylan have helped me a lot not only to recall but learn new words and phrases - I copy them especially the everyday words and phrases into my notebook - to prepare myself to visit my long lost family (from my father first marriage) whom we manage to contact lately. They live somewhere in the county of Meizhou. Would u translate some more everyday words if u have time
Thank you.
Koo
Thomas