I never said you were talking about that, PPK. If you'd actually read my post you'd know that.
"zhong guo ren" and "chung kuo jen" are one and the same.
The reason I brought up Katakana is because you said "Chungkuo Jen" was Japanese, and I was pointing out that the "ng" sound can't occur in Japanese unless you consider n' the same thing as ng.
I still don't see why it's so hard hard for you to get through your head that Chung Kuo Jen is the same thing as Zhong Guo Ren!
And no, Chung Kuo Jen was NEVER a proper romanisation for the Japanese readings of "zhong guo ren" (can't type Chinese on this computer), that has been "chu goku jin" as long as anybody can remember. With a more... mechanically correct romanisation system, it would be "tyu goku zin", and with a very mechanically correct system it would be "tixyu goku zinnn"
Which Chinese dialect sounds most aesthetically pleasing to
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PPK
Re: Which Chinese dialect sounds most aesthetically pleasing
never disagree that its the same thing, just that one of its japanese variations has once degraded into a mocking/rascist term so i suggest ppl take precaution in using it.
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James Campbell
Re: Which Chinese dialect sounds most aesthetically pleasing
Referring back a few posts to what PPK wrote,
1) if you called a Chinese person a chink, I would say that 99.9% of Chinese people would have no clue what you said. That's more than 1 billion people.
2) if you called a Chinese person chung kuo jen (zhong guo ren 中國人), I would say 99.9% of Chinese people would take it as a compliment, and would not argue that claim, save a few minorities who feel they are not.
3) if you called a Chinese person a China man, I would say that if they could understand English, they would not argue with that fact and say yes, they are a China man, or a man of China. In fact, I believe many have been known to call themselves this.
In conclusion, my belief is that the terms you are thinking of that sound racist to Chinese only exist in certain communities of people. And if chung kuo jen (zhong guo ren 中國人) is racist, then a small minority of Chinese people are allowing this term to be racist for them, because the majority of Chinese would agree that this is indeed the name of their people.
UNLESS, they were hearing it wrong and assumed the foreigners were calling them a kind of fruit people, that is 種果人. But I guess that's a little stretch of the imagination.
James
1) if you called a Chinese person a chink, I would say that 99.9% of Chinese people would have no clue what you said. That's more than 1 billion people.
2) if you called a Chinese person chung kuo jen (zhong guo ren 中國人), I would say 99.9% of Chinese people would take it as a compliment, and would not argue that claim, save a few minorities who feel they are not.
3) if you called a Chinese person a China man, I would say that if they could understand English, they would not argue with that fact and say yes, they are a China man, or a man of China. In fact, I believe many have been known to call themselves this.
In conclusion, my belief is that the terms you are thinking of that sound racist to Chinese only exist in certain communities of people. And if chung kuo jen (zhong guo ren 中國人) is racist, then a small minority of Chinese people are allowing this term to be racist for them, because the majority of Chinese would agree that this is indeed the name of their people.
UNLESS, they were hearing it wrong and assumed the foreigners were calling them a kind of fruit people, that is 種果人. But I guess that's a little stretch of the imagination.
James
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PPK
Re: Which Chinese dialect sounds most aesthetically pleasing
no james, still dun get wad i meant. there is nothing wrong with 'zhong guo ren' or '中国人‘, they are neutral and they meant 'chinese', so did 'chung kuo jen'. wad i am saying is there are mocking terms derived from wade giles 'chung kuo jen' romanisation, thou not in used commonly anymore. check out some japanese literature work early last century and u might come across them. so i suggest avoiding that particular romanisation.
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James Campbell
Re: Which Chinese dialect sounds most aesthetically pleasing
You can't force people not to use a certain romanization or spelling of something that was mocking over a century ago and that nobody knows about anymore except you. Who cares? As far as we all know it means Chinese, and it doesn't mean that mocking term anymore, except to you. You're the only one who has taken offense, only because you're letting it get to you. Let it go, and take a deep breath and realize that the world is not the same place it used to be...
Re: Which Chinese dialect sounds most aesthetically pleasing
Exactly, James. lol.
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a hua
Re: Which Chinese dialect sounds most aesthetically pleasing
The argument over which dialect sounds more pleasing is absurd. if you conclude that Cantonese is more crass to the ear, are you saying that to only Cantonese speakers, when one says to the other I love you, it is more crude in an auditory sense, then if a Shanghainese speaker said I love to another Shanghainese, that is ridiculous. i state this to bring to light that the people of their own dialect are the ones to decide. Otherwise, designation by other outside the boundry, us or by a superior power, just runs into misrepresentation. Whites in America can call blacks niggers ( a derogatory term), because they see them that way. So are they (blacks) inferior in the sense that the term nigger denigrates? Blacks, aside from hip-hop cultural significance, don't think of themselves as niggers, in the form that the term denotes when used by whites. But being that white defintion of culture is so overwhelming, others just naturally come to see blacks the same way, without ever meeting one; they are niggers, or criminals, or whatever. My point, to any non- Cantonese speakers from birth, how can any outsider decide what is crass, worse sounding, or lower in the form of a language. Besides, it is political anyways. If the historical capitals of China, the culture, and the national language were all developed in the Canton region, we would think of Cantonese as elite. Don't be fooled, everyone thinks of American English as the crucial dialect now, (that is those who conform to this belief, Singaporeans rightfully speak English the way they want), being that America is the world colonial power. But 100 years ago, British English was it. Even in the 70's the British made Scots relearn their English because it was 'wrong'. Be careful of your beliefs, as a response to overtones that you have taken in without proper investigation.
I'm a little ashamed of all of you legitamet linguist enthusiasts. You clearly understand the underlying needs when discussing the sensitivities of dialect formulations, designtions, and so forth, but when it comes to a supposed hierarchy of dialect superiority, on a basis of sounding pleasant or represetation of an ethnic group, you all obviously have failed to understand the rules (or falacies) which determine legitimacy among linguistical tribes. Reread any information you can regarding political-linguistic determination and power manifestation as a medium for decision making as to what truth is. Then the relative and unstable nature of what is better or worse will cease. I don't want to sound pretentious, I am exhilarated that you all take the effort to share your views on a seemingly small topic in the face of other interests that dominate our world now, it's just (as mentioned in another forum) the resultative effect of these digressions into what is more authentic, or why Cantonese speakers are reluctant to speak their dialect, or chicken scratch simplified characters are all just victim to manufactured defintion, aware or not, it is not organic in the sense of any real unfolding of history. Finally, a Chinese English speaker once said to me that my New York accent sounded crass, that it wasn't refined like a British accent. I responded by asking "so you mean, my understanding of the world would be more refined if i spoke British English"?, he agreed. If you agree with his point of view, then you are right in saying that Cantonese speakers are at a loss to view reality in a more finite way than Mandarin speakers are able to.
I'm a little ashamed of all of you legitamet linguist enthusiasts. You clearly understand the underlying needs when discussing the sensitivities of dialect formulations, designtions, and so forth, but when it comes to a supposed hierarchy of dialect superiority, on a basis of sounding pleasant or represetation of an ethnic group, you all obviously have failed to understand the rules (or falacies) which determine legitimacy among linguistical tribes. Reread any information you can regarding political-linguistic determination and power manifestation as a medium for decision making as to what truth is. Then the relative and unstable nature of what is better or worse will cease. I don't want to sound pretentious, I am exhilarated that you all take the effort to share your views on a seemingly small topic in the face of other interests that dominate our world now, it's just (as mentioned in another forum) the resultative effect of these digressions into what is more authentic, or why Cantonese speakers are reluctant to speak their dialect, or chicken scratch simplified characters are all just victim to manufactured defintion, aware or not, it is not organic in the sense of any real unfolding of history. Finally, a Chinese English speaker once said to me that my New York accent sounded crass, that it wasn't refined like a British accent. I responded by asking "so you mean, my understanding of the world would be more refined if i spoke British English"?, he agreed. If you agree with his point of view, then you are right in saying that Cantonese speakers are at a loss to view reality in a more finite way than Mandarin speakers are able to.
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CB
Re: Which Chinese dialect sounds most aesthetically pleasing
I must take issue with the notion that there is any absurdity at all with preferring one way of speaking over another.
It might be useful if we accept, for the purposes of this debate, that the reasons behind one finding a particular way of speaking more (or less) pleasing to the ear might well lie in economic, political or other foolish bases that do not provide a ?rational? basis (!) for prefering the one over the other. All of those issues aside, I cannot see why it is out of order to have a view as to which dialect(s) sound pleasant.
As far as Southerners are concerned, my money is with Suzhou-hua. But the reason for my bias ought be put on the table - in the form of a kind and helpful Chinese language teacher from Suzhou.
However, I always enjoy hearing Beijingers in action - duiwo laishuo, tingdao "didi-daodao" de beijinghua, xinli juede hen gandong. Once more, no doubt the result of spending a short time in Peking.
Cheers to all,
It might be useful if we accept, for the purposes of this debate, that the reasons behind one finding a particular way of speaking more (or less) pleasing to the ear might well lie in economic, political or other foolish bases that do not provide a ?rational? basis (!) for prefering the one over the other. All of those issues aside, I cannot see why it is out of order to have a view as to which dialect(s) sound pleasant.
As far as Southerners are concerned, my money is with Suzhou-hua. But the reason for my bias ought be put on the table - in the form of a kind and helpful Chinese language teacher from Suzhou.
However, I always enjoy hearing Beijingers in action - duiwo laishuo, tingdao "didi-daodao" de beijinghua, xinli juede hen gandong. Once more, no doubt the result of spending a short time in Peking.
Cheers to all,
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a hua
Re: Which Chinese dialect sounds most aesthetically pleasing
I agree, individual preference to hearing any language is without challenge, the same goes for music (remember schoolyard arguments over whose guitar solo was better, if you are from my era), I just was speaking to what I perceive as the misfortunate internalization by some Cantonese, or Min, or Hakka, that their dialect isn't worth learning, and to what processes lead to such a belief. As you mentioned, the influence of the person behind the dialect does make it all that much more intimate.
Re: Which Chinese dialect sounds most aesthetically pleasing to
The words chungkuo jen is just the Wade-Giles romanisation for the characters 中國人 (Mand: zhong1 guo2 ren2, Cant: zung1 gwok3 jan4) meaning Chinese person. In pinyin it would be written zhongguo