This is the only BIG difference btw "Mainstream Lionghai" and Kakbe -- as far as literary readings go.
There may be a lot of differences on a micro level. "所", for example, is só͘ in Coanciu (lit.) but sé in Ciangciu (lit.). Coanciu literary readings are dominant in TW, and I didn't know the other reading existed till Elmer brought us this project. (This does explain why "初" is che, though.) If I had to bet, I would bet on Kakbe patterning with Ciangciu. But I wouldn't consider this a safe bet.
Coanciu literary readings being dominant in TW -- I didn't know this till now. It means I'm much less qualified for this than I had thought; I thought I knew the Ciangciu literary readings, but it turns out I don't.
The colloquial is its own animal. Kakbe is right up against "Tang'oann" territory. There may be similarities in vocab., etc. People had to communicate.
Back to the matter at hand, socio-linguistics and naming practices actually cloud the matter. Elmer's clan used a number of what could be considered "obscure characters", but a lot of these characters are just a common character plus a radical such as 王土金水艸 etc. U could imagine the family -- most likely merchants, farmers, or both -- consulting with a necromancer who tells them, "This child will need 土 in his life, so insert a 土 into his name," or "If U put a 金 in this child's name, the family will prosper." It is likely that the clan than used the reading of the "original" character, possibly w/o even knowing the obscure character that was then created. "俶", for example. My guess is that they just wanted "叔" with cheese. But it's hard to say. "瑱" is even more likely to be so. They wanted to use "真", but they wanted to "jade" their kid.
The people most likely to be able to "get this right" would be the "resident scholars" of the family left over in situ -- if the family still exists back there, and has scholars still living. But I think we can get it down with few discrepancies, if any (not really errors, just discrepancies).
Pronunciation of some characters
Re: Pronunciation of some characters
Well, in that case it might be handy if one of the Penang-centered people here would have a look over it; isn't that mostly Chiangchiu-based (although I never noticed any discrepancies in literary readings)?amhoanna wrote:There may be a lot of differences on a micro level. "所", for example, is só͘ in Coanciu (lit.) but sé in Ciangciu (lit.). Coanciu literary readings are dominant in TW, and I didn't know the other reading existed till Elmer brought us this project. (This does explain why "初" is che, though.) If I had to bet, I would bet on Kakbe patterning with Ciangciu. But I wouldn't consider this a safe bet.
Coanciu literary readings being dominant in TW -- I didn't know this till now. It means I'm much less qualified for this than I had thought; I thought I knew the Ciangciu literary readings, but it turns out I don't.
If you ask me, that question may often come down to how well-read elmers family was. Considering they were able to write a tso̍k-phóo (族譜), I assume that at least the core family was not illiterate, and then I think it's safe to also assume that they at least knew the Four Books and Five Classics. 俶 for example is attested in both 尚書 and 詩經 as chhiok , and in the 史記 as thek (at least according to Kangxi). Therefore, I would tend to think that at least the core family knew of the existence of this character; whether they knew both readings or just one, or maybe even misread it as chek because it has 叔, this I think depends on how well they knew classic literature.amhoanna wrote:Back to the matter at hand, socio-linguistics and naming practices actually cloud the matter. Elmer's clan used a number of what could be considered "obscure characters", but a lot of these characters are just a common character plus a radical such as 王土金水艸 etc. U could imagine the family -- most likely merchants, farmers, or both -- consulting with a necromancer who tells them, "This child will need 土 in his life, so insert a 土 into his name," or "If U put a 金 in this child's name, the family will prosper." It is likely that the clan than used the reading of the "original" character, possibly w/o even knowing the obscure character that was then created. "俶", for example. My guess is that they just wanted "叔" with cheese. But it's hard to say. "瑱" is even more likely to be so. They wanted to use "真", but they wanted to "jade" their kid.
In the case of 瑱 I agree that it's most likely chin and if anything else then only in another tone.
Re: Pronunciation of some characters
Hello,
Thanks to all, once again. I can wait a few more days with sending my book to the printer. I have a few days margin. Actually, I have been in the village of my origin, but the people living there couldn't tell me much more about the genealogy of my ancestors. Apparently the genealogy was reconstructed from parts which survived in Taiwan.
Here is some more, the list is nearly done now, excep for some characters, where Amhoanna wanted to check the Kakbe pronunciation.
bín bun5
chek siok
ī inn7
ia̍h iap8
ke kui
khe khoe
tun chun3
regards,
Elmer
Thanks to all, once again. I can wait a few more days with sending my book to the printer. I have a few days margin. Actually, I have been in the village of my origin, but the people living there couldn't tell me much more about the genealogy of my ancestors. Apparently the genealogy was reconstructed from parts which survived in Taiwan.
Here is some more, the list is nearly done now, excep for some characters, where Amhoanna wanted to check the Kakbe pronunciation.
bín bun5
chek siok
ī inn7
ia̍h iap8
ke kui
khe khoe
tun chun3
regards,
Elmer
Re: Pronunciation of some characters
aBun -- that's interesting, and U're probably right. Actually, that might be a good test to use -- whether or not a kanji was used in the 四書五経. Good thing U're familiar with them -- I'm not very 四書五経-literate.
Penang Hokkien would be a great resource for this. There was a strong Kakbe influence early on. But Penang Hokkien also tends to do things its own way. Also, the Coanciu bias in Literary readings *may* conceivably exist throughout the diaspora.
Elmer, what U say is interesting.
I've emailed U what I have -- a little chaotic b/c of the trouble I was having with your file. Anything that's blank in my column, or has a star, should be considered "incomplete"... There is not a lot left undone.
Based partly on aBun's analyses, here are my thoughts on this batch:
俶 chhiok
瑱 chin
田 tian5
Chhan5 is plausible for this one, but looking at the names used in this family as a whole, my guess is tian5. I think I had a look at the name where this is actually used as well, and it didn't seem like a name that would lend itself to a colloquial reading. This is the kind of item where the chance of a discrepancy is at its highest. TWese singer 葉啟田 uses chhan5, if I'm not mistaken. But there's no indication from the name as a whole that he would've gone with chhan5.
與 u2
乾 khian5
伯 pek
曲 khiok
樸 phok
Penang Hokkien would be a great resource for this. There was a strong Kakbe influence early on. But Penang Hokkien also tends to do things its own way. Also, the Coanciu bias in Literary readings *may* conceivably exist throughout the diaspora.
Elmer, what U say is interesting.
I've emailed U what I have -- a little chaotic b/c of the trouble I was having with your file. Anything that's blank in my column, or has a star, should be considered "incomplete"... There is not a lot left undone.
Based partly on aBun's analyses, here are my thoughts on this batch:
俶 chhiok
瑱 chin
田 tian5
Chhan5 is plausible for this one, but looking at the names used in this family as a whole, my guess is tian5. I think I had a look at the name where this is actually used as well, and it didn't seem like a name that would lend itself to a colloquial reading. This is the kind of item where the chance of a discrepancy is at its highest. TWese singer 葉啟田 uses chhan5, if I'm not mistaken. But there's no indication from the name as a whole that he would've gone with chhan5.
與 u2
乾 khian5
伯 pek
曲 khiok
樸 phok
Re: Pronunciation of some characters
Far from it actually. I did read excerpts of course for my Classical Chinese class, but I did not read them thâu-kàu-bé, much less know them by heart or anything. I just noticed that they were cited in Kangxiamhoanna wrote:Actually, that might be a good test to use -- whether or not a kanji was used in the 四書五経. Good thing U're familiar with them
Re: Pronunciation of some characters
With my last post, I forgot to add the chinese characters. That of course, is rather senseless
Amhoanna, you sent me an e-mail? I am afraid I did not receive it.
So again:
閔 bín bun5
叔 chek siok
奎 ke kui
吳 gô͘ ngô͘
祚 chà chò͘
倡 chhiong chhiong3
洙 chu su5
冠 koan koàn koann
贊 chàn chān
章 chiuⁿ chiang
程 thêⁿ thêng thiann5 tiann5 teng5
thanks!
Elmer
By the way, Ahoanna: you sent me an e-mail? I am afraid I did not receive that one.
regards,
Elmer
Amhoanna, you sent me an e-mail? I am afraid I did not receive it.
So again:
閔 bín bun5
叔 chek siok
奎 ke kui
吳 gô͘ ngô͘
祚 chà chò͘
倡 chhiong chhiong3
洙 chu su5
冠 koan koàn koann
贊 chàn chān
章 chiuⁿ chiang
程 thêⁿ thêng thiann5 tiann5 teng5
thanks!
Elmer
By the way, Ahoanna: you sent me an e-mail? I am afraid I did not receive that one.
regards,
Elmer
Re: Pronunciation of some characters
Email: re-sent.
閔 bín bun5
bín
叔 chek siok
siok
奎 ke kui
Question forwarded to a Facebook forum.
吳 gô͘ ngô͘
ngô͘
祚 chà chò͘
chō͘ (NOT SURE)
倡 chhiong chhiong3
chhiang or chhiàng;chhiàng is used in a modern word meaning advocate, but it's also homonymous with a word meaning TO VOCALLY GO AGAINST. I am guessing the actual reading was chhiang -- basically 昌 with a radical.
洙 chu su5
chu
冠 koan koàn koann
koan, koàn. I would go with koan. See below on T3.
贊 chàn chān
chān -- applying the general rule that when there is a T3/T7 variation, the T7 variation is Ciangciu. The Tai-Jap dictionary seems to indicate (implicitly) that both readings are present in all dialects. Lastly there also seems to be a bias toward T7 in names. Maybe T3 sounds "too sharp".
章 chiuⁿ chiang
chiang
程 thêⁿ thêng thiann5 tiann5 teng5
têng or thêng. I have a hunch it was thêng
aBun, what do U think?
閔 bín bun5
bín
叔 chek siok
siok
奎 ke kui
Question forwarded to a Facebook forum.
吳 gô͘ ngô͘
ngô͘
祚 chà chò͘
chō͘ (NOT SURE)
倡 chhiong chhiong3
chhiang or chhiàng;chhiàng is used in a modern word meaning advocate, but it's also homonymous with a word meaning TO VOCALLY GO AGAINST. I am guessing the actual reading was chhiang -- basically 昌 with a radical.
洙 chu su5
chu
冠 koan koàn koann
koan, koàn. I would go with koan. See below on T3.
贊 chàn chān
chān -- applying the general rule that when there is a T3/T7 variation, the T7 variation is Ciangciu. The Tai-Jap dictionary seems to indicate (implicitly) that both readings are present in all dialects. Lastly there also seems to be a bias toward T7 in names. Maybe T3 sounds "too sharp".
章 chiuⁿ chiang
chiang
程 thêⁿ thêng thiann5 tiann5 teng5
têng or thêng. I have a hunch it was thêng
aBun, what do U think?
Re: Pronunciation of some characters
Again, thank you so much. Basically what's lft now is in the table below. Some of the characters we already discussed, I know. If somof yo can help me with these last characters, it would be great(again).
best regards,
Elmer
char. POJ remarks
愉 jû 角美-variant?
瑜 jû 角美-variant?
矩 kú 角美-variant?
琛 thim
瑗 oān
穫 hò͘
鎰 ek
程 Amhoanna: têng or thêng. I have a hunch it was thêng
奎 ke / kui
良 Amhoanna: liông / liâng (Elmer: I tend to Liâng, as Liang was the Dutch East-Indian spelling
量 Amhanna: liōng / liāng (Elmer: I tend to liāng, as Liang was the Dutch East-Indian spelling
冠 Amhoanna: koan (maybe koàn)
強 Amhoanna: kiông/kiâng
祚 chò͘ / chà. Amhoanna: chō͘ (NOT SURE)
倡 Amhoanna: chhiang (maybe chhiàng)
所 sé
璧 phek / pek
恂 sun / sûn
best regards,
Elmer
char. POJ remarks
愉 jû 角美-variant?
瑜 jû 角美-variant?
矩 kú 角美-variant?
琛 thim
瑗 oān
穫 hò͘
鎰 ek
程 Amhoanna: têng or thêng. I have a hunch it was thêng
奎 ke / kui
良 Amhoanna: liông / liâng (Elmer: I tend to Liâng, as Liang was the Dutch East-Indian spelling
量 Amhanna: liōng / liāng (Elmer: I tend to liāng, as Liang was the Dutch East-Indian spelling
冠 Amhoanna: koan (maybe koàn)
強 Amhoanna: kiông/kiâng
祚 chò͘ / chà. Amhoanna: chō͘ (NOT SURE)
倡 Amhoanna: chhiang (maybe chhiàng)
所 sé
璧 phek / pek
恂 sun / sûn
Re: Pronunciation of some characters
If this is a surname (of a wife maybe, or the family a daughter married into), it should be chiuⁿ, if I'm not mistaken.amhoanna wrote:章 chiuⁿ chiang
chiang
I would say thêng as well, but I'm not sure whether or not this is Mandarin bleeding into Taiwanese Hokkien.amhoanna wrote:程 thêⁿ thêng thiann5 tiann5 teng5
têng or thêng. I have a hunch it was thêng
The others seem good at first glance
Re: Pronunciation of some characters
Yes, in this case 章 is not a surname.
regards,
Elmer
regards,
Elmer