Penang Hokkien lessons

[Pier]

Hi, timothytye,
read with interest the comments about using your own system of Penang Hokkien romanisation and ditching the internationally recognised POJ for Taiwanese Hokkien (Minnan/Hoklo).
as far as i knew, it is better to standardise the POJ romanisation rather than creating another writing system. diluting the POJ will confuse more learners and the popularity of the POJ. I know you have explained the reasons, but I suggest you may write 2 system of romanisation (i.e. maintain the POJ).
POJ & Chinese Characters are simultaneously used for the teaching and writing of the Taiwanese/Hokkien in many language colleges and university in Taiwan, Hawaii, Hong Kong, China, USA, France etc. Even Harvard University is teaching Taiwanese/Hokkien using the POJ & Chinese Characters.
Taiwanese Hokkien (Tainan/Tailam) & Amoy Hokkien is the de-facto standard bearer of the Hokkien writing and spoken system with the support of the mass media such as movies, tv drama, songs, varieties shows etc. This standard variety are spoken by more than 30 millions Hokkien native (and non-native) speakers in Taiwan & South Fujian. This variety is also very similar to the Hokkien spoken in Singapore, Central & Southern Malaysia Peninsular and Philippines. Penang Hokkien is closer to Changchew(Zhangzhou) variety but is not difficult to comprehend.
I do not think is is a good idea to use another system of romanisation and ditch POJ just for Penang Hokkien. I will not be happy with your suggestion.Let me put the facts right.
The Penang Chinese population is only about 550,000 speakers. Assuming 100% speak Hokkien that is just the total number of speakers. Medan Hokkien is a close cousin with only about 100,000 speakers. Both the varieties are more like “pasar (market)” type of Hokkien with many borrowed or substituted Malay & English words; substituted whenever they cannot find the right Hokkien words. Penang Hokkien is more like a domesticated sub-dialect not use anywhere else outside Penang/Kedah/Taiping. The vocabularly of Hokkien language by Penang Hokkien speakers are diluting with every generations. Any courses or book on Learning Hokkien must address this issues of using the right (or alternative) words and vocabulary instead of blindly continue to use/promote the wrong words usage esp Malay, English, Cantonese words etc.
This is my honest opinion.

[Ah-bin]

Another thing to consider is that most systems for writing Hokkien phonetically are either based very closely on POJ, or close to POJ, because POJ itself is close to the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA), this is true at least as far as the representation of vowels and initials is concerned. Tones and nasalisation are the biggest differences here.

As someone has said elsewhere, the rules of POJ can produce a perfect representation of spoken Penang Hokkien, (except for the loanwords), POJ principles can be used to write almost any kind of Hokkien in Chiang-chiu/Choan-chiu/Amoy, as well as those spoken in other countries. Only the tones are a problem , and the tone numbering system is a good solution to the problem for those who want to start learnnig Penang-style Hokkien.

To my mind, the most important thing for any system is that sounds are represented systematically. i.e. where an ordinary Penangite nasalises, the romanisation needs to show nasalisation. Writing knia n one place and kia in another is not really acceptable unless Penangites actually pronounce these differently in differnt places.

Vowel quality is the same, if pronounced the same it should not be written differently in different places, -ah in one place and -a somewhere else implies there is a difference in speech which does not actually exist. The example of Tha-mo I mentioned above makes sense if a true representation of speech is intended, but why "yew" in one place and "eu" another, or "jee" and "ji"? Why make it hard for people to write it out right (pun intended)?

The vocabularly of Hokkien language by Penang Hokkien speakers are diluting with every generations. Any courses or book on Learning Hokkien must address this issues of using the right (or alternative) words and vocabulary instead of blindly continue to use/promote the wrong words usage esp Malay, English, Cantonese words etc.
This is my honest opinion.

I don't really agree with this. If you say there is a "right" word for something, then whose "right" is it Amoy, Taiwan MOE, Douglas, Bodman, Ong Iok-tek, a Singapore unker?

Is óh-tn̂g "right" for school, or is the Japanese loan "hák-hàu" the "correct" one?

There is a balance to be struck in Penang Hokkien, and it is not a simple issue of replacing vocabulary items. Malay and English words have become fully ingrained into the structure of Penang Hokkien. You might be able to stop people from using certain words which have Hokkien alternatives, but in Penang there simply is no replacement for words like pun, and balu, removing these words from Penang Hokkien (or Northern Malaysian Hokkien) would fundamentally alter the structure of the language, and it would no longer be Penang Hokkien.

Why is it that so many people who speak any kind of Chinese can accept that there are regional and national differences in English vocabulary and grammar, but as soon as it gets to anything to do with their own language they have to say that things are right or wrong? It is an interesting psychological phenomenon. Shall we blame 秦始皇 for this obsession with uniformity?

[timothytye]

Thank you Pier and Ah-bin for your highly appreciated input.

Here are some concessions that I can make. Firstly, per suggestion from Pier, is to provide the corresponding spelling in POJ and Chinese characters in the dictionary that I am in the midst of compiling (http://www.penang-traveltips.com/penang ... nglish.htm) That way, those who are interested can view how the words are spelled in POJ, and what the Chinese characters look like.

I have a fear and concern about using Pe̍h-ōe-jī because the pronunciation of Hokkien is not always the same as that of Penang Hokkien. Even the name Pe̍h-ōe-jī itself is not a Penang Hokkien pronunciation. In Penang Hokkien, I pronounce it as Pek3wa3ji3 (using the system I created). The main fear is that Pe̍h-ōe-jī will open learners to Pe̍h-ōe-jī material that will threaten the survival of Penang Hokkien.

Taiwanese Hokkien will survive, but Penang Hokkien will not survive if it is threatened by intrusion created by Pe̍h-ōe-jī. I hope you can understand my fear.

[amhoanna]

Timothy,

U're hard-working, creative, passionate, focused, and Penang-centric. All this is Grade A stuff. But I wouldn't recommend your site to anybody for learning Hokkien, yet.

The Timothy Tye System is what makes your site useless for learners. Now, I tend to agree that some of your departures from POJ are justified and workable. For instance, you use tone contours instead of tonemes (tone categories). U've traded some elegance for user-friendliness, and it might've been a good trade. I also agree that the diacritics are confusing for learners, and numbers can work in the long run, with the right software, etc., as in Thai.

I agree that since your target audience is Malay-literate, the ideal system would be modified to be more compatible with Malay.

Fortunately, since Malay spelling is consistent and regular, and POJ is too, any writing system inspired by these two would naturally be consistent and regular.

But to then try and incorporate the colonial Angmo "sukah-sukah" spellings (CASSS) of Hokkien names that pepper signs, menus and name rolls in the former British colony of Malaya ... is madness. All the consistency, regularity, and user-friendliness of your system vanishes with that. Can a snake eat a whale? It would choke and die. You are trying to trade both user-friendliness and elegance ... for what?

The CASSS have the advantage of being familiar, but that's all. They were designed to be used in English texts and contexts ONLY -- just like the names "Singapore" and "Malacca". Waktu kita menulis dengan bahasa Melayu, ditulis "Singapore"? Tidak, ditulis "Singapura" itu. Ditulis "Malacca"? Tiada, hanya "Melaka" saja.

Bythe same token, "char kuay teow" and "char koay teow" were only meant to be used in English, NOT in Penang Hokkien itself (nor in real Malay).

Let us de-colonize our minds.

Familiarity only takes you so far. For instance, someone who's only driven a Proton with an automatic transmission is used to the "gears" all being in a straight line. Now, let's say that person wants to learn stickshift. A hypothetical stickshift car that had all the gears in a straight line WOULD be easier for him or her to learn to drive -- FOR ABOUT FIVE MINUTES. After that it'd just help her get in a wreck. The regular, normal stickshift pattern could be a little hard to digest -- for a few hours. But once our friend gets on the road, it's way easier to shift than a straight-line gearshift (hypothetically) would be.

Bahasa Melayu is consistent and regular through and through. What you read is what you hear. There are just two exceptions, two instances where two different sounds map to one spelling in Malay. One is "e", which can be either a central vowel or a front vowel. The other is final "-k", which is usually a glottal stop but is also a real final -k at times.

My advice to you is to practice what U suggested: make your system friendly to the Malay-literate user. Believe me, U will be a hit on both sides of the Straits of Malacca.


P/S I'm not saying U should use POJ, but I think U misunderstand POJ. Writing in POJ does not mean writing in Amoy Hokkien or Taiwanese Hokkien. You can write in POJ in any dialect of Hokkien or Teochew. It's true that POJ was never really adapted to the Coanciu City-, Engchun-, and Klang-type dialects, but PngHkn isn't affected at all. A gentleman from Alor named Lo̍h Cín'ui writes in Alor / Penang Hokkien in POJ all the time. He does not bow to Amoy or Taiwanese Hokkien at all. Loanwords from Malay, Cantonese, English, Teochew and Thai are included in all their glory, and spelled consistently using POJ -- which he would spell Pe̍eh-uā-jī. That's not an Angmo "ee"; that's a Ciangciu / PngHkn "ee", standing for the open "e" that is used in Penang, Medan, Phuket, and Ciangciu, but not in Klang, Amoy, Taiwan, etc.

[timothytye]

Thank you amhoanna for your view. Let me share with you the thought process that went into creating my own system of writing.
http://www.penang-traveltips.com/thought-process.htm

It will help to provide you insight into why I do it, whom it is supposed to reach, answer some questions and more.

I agree with what you wrote, that writing in POJ does not mean writing in Amoy Hokkien or Taiwanese Hokkien. POJ and TJ are almost identical, if we strip off the diacritic marks from one and tone numbers from the other. Then why create a different system? TJ is meant to preserve the unique outstanding value of Penang Hokkien. And what's that? Well, if you understand what that is, you would not have written your respond the way you have.

[amhoanna]

Basically Mr Tai's reasoning is this:

"The "sacred" colonial Angmo spellings MUST be preserved, at all costs. These being English-based and thus irregular, PngHkn must of course be subjected to random irregular spellings as well. Irregular spelling systems are better than regular ones anyway. English is spelled irregularly, after all. PngHkn SHOULD be as Anglo-centric as possible to accommodate "casual learners" who may have been educated monolingually in English and are incapable of functioning in daily life in any other written idiom.

"To avoid inefficiency, Mr Tai will decree which spellings shall be considered sacred and which shall be discarded. The public may then internalize Mr Tai's whims by referring to Mr Tai's website free of charge."

I don't buy it, Mr T.

the unique outstanding value of Penang Hokkien.

= ???

Pls enlighten us as best U can.

Penang Malay and Penang Tamil are not endowed with sacred Angmo spellings. So why does Penang Hokkien need them? In hope you're not implying that orang Hokkien are uniquely "phô͘ Ângmo lãn"!

TJ is meant to preserve the unique outstanding value of Penang Hokkien.

So then why do you keep referring to POJ using its Amoy/Taiwanese name, Pe̍h'ōejī? Why not use PngHkn to refer to POJ?

[timothytye]

Dear amhoanna,

Thank you for your response, but I do want to know, are you writing to me? You refer to a Mr Tai.
My name is Timothy Tye. You may call me Tim or Mr Tye.

In your post to Mr Tai, you wrote, "Irregular spelling systems are better than regular ones anyway." That's your word, not mine. " PngHkn SHOULD be as Anglo-centric as possible to accommodate "casual learners" who may have been educated monolingually in English and are incapable of functioning in daily life in any other written idiom. " That too is your word, not mine.

Colonial Angmo "sukah-sukah" spellings is also your term, not mine. What I do is to tidy up what appears rather disorderly, by listing out in a table what you can expect each vowel sound, diphthong or consonant to sound like, which I share at http://www.penang-traveltips.com/hokkie ... iation.htm I am still adding and refining this table.

The people of Penang are used to how some words are spelled. This includes the names of the dishes sold by the hawkers. Some people spell their surname Khoo, some Yeoh, and so on. Do we re-spell Khoo in POJ? I will not do it in TJ. The Khoos have been using it for all their lives. When we are used to something being spelled a certain way, we develop an attachment to it. Even if you are then told that you are misspelling it, or mispronouncing it, it doesn't matter. You respect the name and how it is spelled. It's like a kitchen knife that you've been using for many years. You've developed a fondness for it.

I feel it is very harsh to say that "Mr Tai will decree which spellings shall be considered sacred". Yes, it is my opinion, based on my knowledge, what are the words I find to be commonly used. And I teach it out of my passion to share my language to anybody who wants to learn it from me. Of course they don't have to learn from me, but if they do, they know they are learning what I have compiled, to the best of my ability, what I hope can be an accurate representation of the vernacular language, as found on the streets of Penang.

The Penang Hokkien that I am sharing with people is based on what I hear in Penang, what I say, and how I think when I write it out. If you don't appreciate it, and recommend it to anybody, it doesn't matter, I do it out of my own passion to share Penang Hokkien. But a person who does appreciate it can see right into the very mind of a Penang native, and he will say, "Penang Hokkien has largely been a spoken language, but if a native speaker does write it out, this is how it looks like."

You said that "The Timothy Tye System is what makes your site useless for learners." (Curious that here, you know how to spell my name correctly.) That's one person's opinion. Nonetheless learners should decide on his own, based on his own evaluation, that if learning from me will greatly impact his knowledge of Penang Hokkien in a negative way, then he should not learn from me. But if he feels that he will enjoy the insight I offer on Penang and Penang Hokkien, then he should.

It is also my hope that one day, someone who is a native speaker of Penang Malay can compile, share, and teach us the differences of Penang Malay compared to standard Malay. I do not know how different is Penang Tamil - if such a thing exists - from standard Tamil. If it does exist, then it would be good to document it, just like what I am doing for Penang Hokkien, as a native speaker. The person doesn't have to be a scholar or linguist, I would appreciate learning from a real native speaker the street language than from a linguist the language manufactured in the lab. This is what I mean by the "unique outstanding value" that I hope will not be lost. It all depends on whether there is that someone somewhere who is interested to do that, not so much creating a compilation that only scholars will be interested in, but rather lessons that helps people who don't speak understand their language.

[AndrewAndrew]

Timothy: one question. Until recently we used to have two members of the Penang Executive Council, one called Law Choo Kiang and one called Law Heng Kiang. How do you pronounce the surname Law?

[Mark Yong]

Hi, Timothy,

First off, welcome to the ChineseLanguage.org Hokkien (Minnan) Forum! As you may have figured out, a number of us here have been active for quite a few years. I hope you can find useful information within its pages that may serve to supplement your work.

The members (old and new) and casual visitors of this Forum hail not just from Penang Hokkien-speaking background, but also from other Hokkien backgrounds, e.g. Singapore, Indonesia (Bagansiapiapi, Medan), the Philippines and Taiwan (although admittedly, the Penang Hokkien variety has tended to feature most often in discussion threads, due to the larger percentage representation of active members here).

As a result, discussions regarding vocabulary and syntax tend to cross borders, making comparisons between the ways in which things are expressed in different sub-dialects of Hokkien are often made, identifying any cross-pollination that may have taken place (point in context: Penang Hokkien is based upon the 漳州 Tsiang-Tsiu dialect, but is not 100% 漳州 Tsiang-Tsiu), and tracing the common etymological origins of words, are the norm. In this way, we celebrate our respective identities, yet at the same time acknowledge our part of the family of Hokkien languages, or to use the more correct term, the 「閩南」 Bân-Lâm language family.

In order to facilitate such a broad audience encompassing so many different strains of Hokkien, it is therefore natural that the Romanisation system(s) employed should be:
1. Consistent
2. Standardised
3. Widely-recognised in linguistic circles
4. Able to document with fidelity, the pronunciations of as many (if not all) of the different variants as possible

The effort that you have put in to create your own unique “TJ” Romanisation of Penang Hokkien is certainly commendable, as amhoanna has alluded to in the opening line of his comments, so I hope you take his and the others’ comments in a positive light (if we sound somewhat harsh, it is only because it reflects on our passion for the subject ). But by the same token, because of the large varieties of Hokkien discussed within this particular Forum, the use of a Romanisation system that is designed to only accommodate Penang Hokkien (complete with its own nuances and legacy of unique colonial-originated spellings) will be very limiting (and somewhat divisive, too). For instance, simplifying the number of tones from the standard eight (8) to just (4) in “TJ” is great for Penang Hokkien, but becomes a problem when comparing tone sandhi features vis-a-vis other variants that employ some or all of the other four (4) remaining tones. amhoanna has already spoken at lengths regarding the problems of colonial legacy-based spellings which, although taken for granted within Penang Hokkien itself, are totally alien to other variants of Hokkien, so I will not repeat his points here. Suffice to say, discussing only Penang Hokkien to the exclusion of the other variants of Hokkien, and the use of a Penang Hokkien-only Romanisation system to that effect, is certainly not in keeping with the ecumenical spirit and objectives of this Forum.

I myself was a newcomer to 「白話字」 Pɛh-Oa-Ji when I first joined this Forum in late-2005. Andrew can probably tell you, it was a bit of a learning curve for me. But long-term (and like most learning curves in life) the effort paid off - because now, those of us who use it when describing the pronunciations of words in our respective variants of Hokkien, can be certain that we are singing off the same songsheet, and there are no doubts or ambiguities. Furthermore, this being an English-language-medium Forum, where a number of the members are not educated in Chinese characters, an accurate and universally-recognised Romanisation system becomes even more important in transmitting the pronunciation of words correctly, especially given the homomyns and tonal nature of Hokkien (and just about any other Chinese dialect in general). Otherwise, there is no sure way of determining whether a certain word in Penang Hokkien is pronounced the same, slightly different, or totally different from, say, Kelanatanese Hokkien, Bagansiapiapi Hokkien or Medan Hokkien. I can testify that amhoanna’s Alor Setar friend's experience is consistent with mine: I, too, have encountered virtually no problems in transcribing the pronunciations and tones of Penang Hokkien using 「白話字」 Pɛh-Oa-Ji - Malay loanwords and all. If anything, my use of 「白話字」 Pɛh-Oa-Ji has increased both my awareness and discipline towards correct pronunciation and correct notation - Penang Hokkien or otherwise.

Last, but not least, please let me assure you that my use of 「白話字」 Pɛh-Oa-Ji notwithstanding, I, too, owe no allegiance to Taiwanese or Amoy Hokkien - apart from the profound appreciation of a shared common legacy with the greater corpus of the 「閩南」 Bân-Lâm language family. Beyond that, I identify myself as a speaker of orthodox Penang Hokkien.

[amhoanna]

What I do is to tidy up what appears rather disorderly, by listing out in a table what you can expect each vowel sound, diphthong or consonant to sound like,

It's impossible to create a consistent writing system for Penang Hokkien using the principles of English-based spellings, b/c English-based spellings are not principled.

You represent TAPIOCA as "Chhoo3chu2". What sound is "ch" in your system? A scholar knows that in this case it's the "c-" sound in Malay. Someone who doesn't already speak Hokkien fluently (a.k.a. a "learner") would have no way of knowing. Yet, U say:

not so much creating a compilation that only scholars will be interested in, but rather lessons that helps people who don't speak understand their language.

You also use -oo- and -u- to spell the exact same sound, in the same word. This is a writing system that defeats the purpose of having a writing system.

Fortunately, I doubt U will see "chhoo chu" on any menu or shop sign in Penang or anywhere...

I would appreciate learning from a real native speaker the street language than from a linguist the language manufactured in the lab. This is what I mean by the "unique outstanding value" that I hope will not be lost.

I salute you on that. Whenever I go about learning a language, and that is often, I always go for the street version, the natural version.

B/c English spellings lack the "hardware" needed to represent the sounds of Penang Hokkien, any English-based spelling of Penang Hokkien will garble its sounds, like a bad audio recording. A Hokkien speaker with local knowledge will be able to de-code the garbling; a learner will not. The power of the street language is then lost, except maybe for a scholar who specializes in decoding garbled code.

U might wanna just stick to audio.