Help with a few words

[FutureSpy]

Thanks, niuc!

2. So you don't use tó-lo̍h there? Interesting. I thought only (most parts of) Taiwan (and at least Cebu in the Philippines) used tó-ūi.

4. I thought starting a sentence with mā wasn't right 'cos once a Taiwanese told me it sound awkward to him. But then today, I came across to the sentence 「嘛會當用手打球。」 in one of my books, so perhaps the problem wasn't the pattern per se, but a specific sentence. Personally, seeing how much variation there's in Taiwanese, I feel it's really dangerous to take it seriously when a Taiwanese tells me something in a book is wrong...

Are hàm-hàm and má-má-hu-hu still interchangeable, despite these differences you point out? I mean, I still haven't had enough exposition to any of these expressions to actually understand how/when to use them.

[FutureSpy]

By the way, my teacher said in her dialect she says "khì-un kui" instead of "氣溫高" "khì-un koân". Is that kui is kùi 貴 meaning expensive?

[SimL]

Hi FutureSpy

Personally, seeing how much variation there's in Taiwanese, I feel it's really dangerous to take it seriously when a Taiwanese tells me something in a book is wrong...

Yes, the same with Penang Hokkien (with different layers, particularly the Baba vs. non-Baba divide). And Taiwan is a lot bigger than Penang.

Even a language like German - which has been officially standardized for more than 100 years - has a little bit of variation in vocabulary items (within Germany already; the differences are even greater between Germany and Austria). All the more so for non-standardized languages like Hokkien / Taiwanese (though undoubtedly the Taiwan Ministry of Education is working in this too).

I'm sorry that I can never answer your language questions, but I'd like to say that I do read them with interest.

[niuc]

2. So you don't use tó-lo̍h there? Interesting. I thought only (most parts of) Taiwan (and at least Cebu in the Philippines) used tó-ūi.

Tó-lo̍h is acceptable in my variant but sounds not "native" enough, and the ones who use it (if any) may do so due to influence from Medan or other Hokkien variants. Tór-ūi, tór-cìt-ūi, and especially tôr, are the "native" ones for Bā-gán-uē. Tór/tôr 佗 is usually parallel to Mandarin 哪, and often means "which" with construction 佗一(classifier), e.g. 佗一个, 佗一塊, 佗一間, 佗一角(頭), 佗一位 (which position/place -> where), 佗一本, etc. I think 佗位 comes from 佗一位.

Are hàm-hàm and má-má-hu-hu still interchangeable, despite these differences you point out?

Yes, I think they are still interchangable in some if not most contexts.

By the way, my teacher said in her dialect she says "khì-un kui" instead of "氣溫高" "khì-un koân". Is that kui is kùi 貴 meaning expensive?

Could it be kuîⁿ instead of "kui"? Kuîⁿ, kuân/koân, kuâiⁿ are 泉漳廈 variant pronunciations of 懸 (high = 高 "ko"). My variant uses kuâiⁿ.

[FutureSpy]

All the more so for non-standardized languages like Hokkien / Taiwanese (though undoubtedly the Taiwan Ministry of Education is working in this too).

I'm not sure if they're trying to establish a single standard form. MOE's dictionary actually gives a lot of variations for each word, what comes in very handy. Sometimes, they even give what words people in each region use hte most. What they did was to establish a character for the cases where there was no known 本字. However, they also replaced some not very widespread 本字 for what has been already in use in Taiwan (你, 人, etc.), even if it wasn't etymologically correct. While I don't agree completely with that, I've following it 'cos this way I no longer have to worry about what character to use, at least at this stage. But given current Taiwanese Government is less pro-Taiwanese, I guess we shouldn't expect any moves regarding Taiwanese/Hokkien...

I'm sorry that I can never answer your language questions, but I'd like to say that I do read them with interest.

No need to apologize, Sim! I really like your posts, especially your stories, so please keep them coming If wasn't for you, I guess these forums would be already dead long ago! And I also find very interesting reading about Penang Hokkien. I'll try to look carefully Tim's lessons when I have some time...

By the way, my teacher said in her dialect she says "khì-un kui" instead of "氣溫高" "khì-un koân". Is that kui is kùi 貴 meaning expensive?

Could it be kuîⁿ instead of "kui"? Kuîⁿ, kuân/koân, kuâiⁿ are 泉漳廈 variant pronunciations of 懸 (high = 高 "ko"). My variant uses kuâiⁿ.

Yeah! That's probably it! Since her variant has no nasalization (so far I only spotted nasalization on 3 words), that's it! Thanks!

[SimL]

Hi FutureSpy

All the more so for non-standardized languages like Hokkien / Taiwanese (though undoubtedly the Taiwan Ministry of Education is working in this too).

I'm not sure if they're trying to establish a single standard form. MOE's dictionary actually gives a lot of variations for each word, what comes in very handy. Sometimes, they even give what words people in each region use hte most.

Ah, thanks for correcting my ignorance on this issue. Without knowing any facts at all, I simply assumed that all governments want to standardize! Perhaps it's in line with the Taiwanese attitude of "respecting individuality" which makes them accept and record all this variation.

What they did was to establish a character for the cases where there was no known 本字. However, they also replaced some not very widespread 本字 for what has been already in use in Taiwan (你, 人, etc.), even if it wasn't etymologically correct. While I don't agree completely with that, I've following it 'cos this way I no longer have to worry about what character to use, at least at this stage.

I agree with every aspect of your attitude. I too would find it (extremely) sad not to use 汝 for "you". But simply accepting their chosen character, the way you explain, ties in with what I was saying in the other topic about the value of standardization... Stated in a "too extreme" form: It doesn't matter what you pick, as long as you pick something and consistently use it!

PS. Thanks for your kind words on my stories. You may be shocked to hear that that long piece that I wrote most recently took a total of about 9 hours work (spread over Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday) to write. That's because I really polish my words over and over again - each comma or semi-colon, the choice of this or that word, the order of explaining something - they are all very carefully weighed up, before I'm satisfied with a piece that I write. Every single paragraph was proof-read probably 10-15 times, and went through probably 5-6 major edits and 10-15 minor edits - an extra word here, an additional sentence there, brackets to qualify or explain some sub-aspect, etc, etc.

It's exhausting, but I do enjoy words and writing .

[FutureSpy]

You may be shocked to hear that that long piece that I wrote most recently took a total of about 9 hours work (spread over Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday) to write.

Sim, you should write a book! I wonder if nobody had this idea before: inviting a few Penangities to write some stories about old times' Penang. Publishing that would be another story, but still... The result would be quite interesting, I guess!

Without knowing any facts at all, I simply assumed that all governments want to standardize!

Now it's just my opinion, but I don't think Taiwanese government want to raise Hokkien to a higher level. Hence why they don't seem to be worried about creating a Standard Taiwanese. But naturally, the medias might do the job without conscientiously pushing a standard on them

[SimL]

Sim, you should write a book! I wonder if nobody had this idea before: inviting a few Penangities to write some stories about old times' Penang. Publishing that would be another story, but still... The result would be quite interesting, I guess!

Hmmm. It's certainly a nice idea. Niuc and Ah-bin have also mentioned it. Let's wait until I'm 80 (less than 15 years away - what an amazing thought!!!). By then, all the things I describe will certainly have that "exotic, rosy and romantic glow" of ancientness about them (I think they are beginning to do that already).

It's a very strange phenomenon actually... When I was young: A. colour TV's, casette players, (and later) CD-walkmen, floppy-disks, electric typewriters, PC's with 8" black-and-white character-cell screens were the cutting edge of technology - they were amazingly exciting things, which few people had, and only the more advanced sorts of people got for themselves; B. fridges, washing machines, black-and-white TV's, landline phones with dials which turned were "normal everyday objects", which everyone just took for granted; C. Chinese opera and puppet shows, having a bath by scooping water out of a well, doing your homework at night using a candle or a carbide lamp were things which had an "exotic, rosy and romantic glow" of ancientness about them.

I guess when my father was a young man, all the things on my C-list (exotic and romantic), were for him just "normal" everyday things; the things on my B-list (normal for me) were for him, cutting edge of technology; and the things on my A-list were simply undreamt of.

And - parallelling that - now, as time goes on, the things on my A-list (for me, so exciting and cutting-edge in my youth), are, for the new generation, just "normal", and all the things on my B-list (for me, so normal), are, for the new generation, getting an "exotic and romantic glow"!

So, I guess it'll happen to you too, FutureSpy. A time will come when you will speak to young people about 3-D films, 3-D printers, YouTube, Wikipedia, smartphones, and they will look at you in amazement, and be surprised that they can actually speak to a human being who actually used such primitive objects and systems !

[niuc]

Let's wait until I'm 80 (less than 15 years away - what an amazing thought!!!).

Sim, do you mean this literally? Hmmm, how did I get the impression that you were in your late 40s?

B. fridges, washing machines, black-and-white TV's, landline phones with dials which turned were "normal everyday objects", which everyone just took for granted;

In early 1980s, these were still luxury items in Bagansiapiapi.

So, I guess it'll happen to you too, FutureSpy. A time will come when you will speak to young people about 3-D films, 3-D printers, YouTube, Wikipedia, smartphones, and they will look at you in amazement, and be surprised that they can actually speak to a human being who actually used such primitive objects and systems !

Indeed! The progress of technology is very impressive (and we are too pampered...). However, isn't it still true that ancient Egyptian and Mayan people were very advanced in architecture (building pyramids) and astronomy (calendar), more than many nations after them (including some today)? Hopefully there will be no 3rd world war etc that will prevent the progress and continuity of technology... or the next generations may fall back on more primitive technology. Otherwise, Star Trek will be a reality (though I still doubt about teleportation) quite soon!

[SimL]

Hi Niuc,

Let's wait until I'm 80 (less than 15 years away - what an amazing thought!!!).

Sim, do you mean this literally? Hmmm, how did I get the impression that you were in your late 40s?

Yes, it is so.

I think it's a human tendency to "freeze" a person's age roughly at the age they were when you first met them (or when you first got to know them better), adjusted a little bit for the conscious perception of the passage of time. I have a friend who met me when I was in my mid-30's, and nowadays - more than 20 years later - on the occasions when my current age gets mentioned, he's always a bit surprised. He knows we've known one another for some time, so he tries to adjust for that, and then thinks I'm in my late 30's! Perhaps the same thing happened in your case...?

B. fridges, washing machines, black-and-white TV's, landline phones with dials which turned were "normal everyday objects", which everyone just took for granted;

In early 1980s, these were still luxury items in Bagansiapiapi.

This could be a reflection of the fact that Malaysia was, for most of the 20th century, wealthier than Indonesia (perhaps that's still the case - when I went back for a visit to Malaysia, many people spoke of having "Indonesian maids" as domestic help). Or it could be that old phenomenon of "what I experienced counts for the rest of my world". I mean, I came from a relatively comfortable middle-class family. We weren't distinctly *rich*, but we were certainly very comfortable. A child then extrapolates that to the rest of society and thinks that "most people live like this".

Hopefully there will be no 3rd world war etc that will prevent the progress and continuity of technology... or the next generations may fall back on more primitive technology.

My greatest concern is environmental pollution. Like the "Sea of Plastic" the size of Spain, in the middle of the Pacific Ocean .