Helmut,
My problem is that I do not understand the numbering system in JyutPing. I thought that cin2 meant that the tone was the same as for the number 2 (yih) which is a low level tone. Now I realise that if tone 2 in JyutPing is mid rising then cin2 is what FSI has taught me.
I can see that JyutPing is better for the internet because you can type it in normal text like this. I prefer Yale because I know it so well and I can read it out loud fluently, but I have yet to find a way to easily type it on this forum.
Thanks for explaining it to me.
Cheers,
Eugene
Correct way to say "money" in Cantonese?
Re: I need to learn JyutPing
: My problem is that I do not understand the numbering system in JyutPing.
Tone 1: high level flat (or falling)
Tone 2: rising to high level
Tone 3: mid level flat
Tone 4: low level falling
Tone 5: rising to mid level
Tone 6: low level flat
This system is also used by other romanization systems, e.g. Lau. I have seen also Yale versions using it instead of accents.
: I prefer Yale because I know it so well and I can read it out loud fluently, but I have yet to find a way to easily type it on this forum.
Let's try to type it. If you can read this
"Néih haih ou jàu yàhn."
then I tell you how I did it. If not, forget it. The problem is not only writing the accents, it is also for the other people reading them. E.g. I cannot see them, if I switched on Chinese character viewing.
Helmut
Tone 1: high level flat (or falling)
Tone 2: rising to high level
Tone 3: mid level flat
Tone 4: low level falling
Tone 5: rising to mid level
Tone 6: low level flat
This system is also used by other romanization systems, e.g. Lau. I have seen also Yale versions using it instead of accents.
: I prefer Yale because I know it so well and I can read it out loud fluently, but I have yet to find a way to easily type it on this forum.
Let's try to type it. If you can read this
"Néih haih ou jàu yàhn."
then I tell you how I did it. If not, forget it. The problem is not only writing the accents, it is also for the other people reading them. E.g. I cannot see them, if I switched on Chinese character viewing.
Helmut
-
Eugene Morrow
Yale typing
Helmut,
I can read the Yale accents! Here is your text:
: "Néih haih ou jàu yàhn."
How did you do it? Is there available a flat bar above a vowel to show the high level tone?
Thanks for showing it can be done,
Eugene
I can read the Yale accents! Here is your text:
: "Néih haih ou jàu yàhn."
How did you do it? Is there available a flat bar above a vowel to show the high level tone?
Thanks for showing it can be done,
Eugene
Re: Yale typing
Hi Eugene,
sorry, all I can do is putting rising or falling accents on top of a vowel.
In a six-tone scheme, you can use the falling accent for the high level tone, though.
Another problem, you cannot put an accent on top of 'm' or 'ng'.
Here is how I did it (on the English version of both Windows 95 and Windows NT).
1. Install once:
In the Start menu, go to Settings, Control Panel, Keyboard, Language.
Click the Add... button and select a German keyboard layout from the list. Click OK. Ready.
2. How to use:
Press Alt-Shift to switch from English to German keyboard layout.
Press '=' and then the vowel to get the vowel with rising accent.
Press '+' and then the vowel to get the vowel with falling accent.
For normal letters, just use the keyboard as usually. Only 'y' and 'z' have exchanged places.
Press Alt-Shift again to switch back to English keyboard layout.
You may try other keyboard settings to find something better, but I doubt that there is a reasonable way how to do flat bar or accents on top of 'm' or 'ng'. This simply does not exist in any language, so it is not foreseen in the standard fonts. There are special fonts for pinyin which have the flat bar, but this is used for Word. You cannot use that for internet browsers.
Have fun
Helmut
sorry, all I can do is putting rising or falling accents on top of a vowel.
In a six-tone scheme, you can use the falling accent for the high level tone, though.
Another problem, you cannot put an accent on top of 'm' or 'ng'.
Here is how I did it (on the English version of both Windows 95 and Windows NT).
1. Install once:
In the Start menu, go to Settings, Control Panel, Keyboard, Language.
Click the Add... button and select a German keyboard layout from the list. Click OK. Ready.
2. How to use:
Press Alt-Shift to switch from English to German keyboard layout.
Press '=' and then the vowel to get the vowel with rising accent.
Press '+' and then the vowel to get the vowel with falling accent.
For normal letters, just use the keyboard as usually. Only 'y' and 'z' have exchanged places.
Press Alt-Shift again to switch back to English keyboard layout.
You may try other keyboard settings to find something better, but I doubt that there is a reasonable way how to do flat bar or accents on top of 'm' or 'ng'. This simply does not exist in any language, so it is not foreseen in the standard fonts. There are special fonts for pinyin which have the flat bar, but this is used for Word. You cannot use that for internet browsers.
Have fun
Helmut
-
Eugene Morrow
Typing Yale and limitations of Yale
Helmut,
Thanks for the information! I do not have time to try this straight away - I will be able to try it next week.
I was very interested in your answer to another question on this forum where you discussed the limitations of Yale. You mentioned the eu vowel sound has to variations: eo and oe in JyutPing.
Can you give an example of Yale spellings that have the different pronunciations of eu?
Also, I have another question: if JyutPing is rare in textbooks, how did you learn it? Can you recommend a book?
Thanks for your knowledge,
Eugene Morrow
Thanks for the information! I do not have time to try this straight away - I will be able to try it next week.
I was very interested in your answer to another question on this forum where you discussed the limitations of Yale. You mentioned the eu vowel sound has to variations: eo and oe in JyutPing.
Can you give an example of Yale spellings that have the different pronunciations of eu?
Also, I have another question: if JyutPing is rare in textbooks, how did you learn it? Can you recommend a book?
Thanks for your knowledge,
Eugene Morrow
eu and eo and oe
Hi Eugene,
let's find an example:
"the bird wants to go out"
Yale: jek jeuk jái séung chèut heui
Jyutping: zek3 zoek3 zai2 soeng2 ceot1 heoi3
Always when there is a short vowel (in case of -eui, -eut, -eun), Jyutping uses 'eo'. Always when there is a long vowel (in case of -eu, -euk, -eung), Jyutping uses 'oe'.
It should be no real problem for Yale, because there is no ambiguity. You can always tell from the final consonant, what sound should be spoken. You have a similar behaviour for 'i' and 'u'. However, I think that short 'eu' and long 'eu' have nothing in common (unlike 'i' and 'u' where the sounds are similar). And therefore it makes good sense to spell them in differently.
Actually, many text books fail to point out the difference in pronounciation. E.g. look at the IPA entries for the two sounds in the table of the following web link.
No, I cannot recommend any book for Jyutping, because I have yet to see one. (Best reason to stick with Yale.) All what I have seen are web pages and they are mostly not made for people like us, but rather for linguists and teachers. For me, it was quite some detective work to find out how it works.
Try this page first. It tells you a lot, if you know Yale.
http://chinalanguage.com/CCDICT/Support/jyutpin.php
This is all in Chinese, but if you click around here, you fill find pages where you have Jyutping and the English translation for single words.
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Canton2
and see also
http://www.hku.hk/linguist/lshk/Jyutping/
Have fun
Helmut
let's find an example:
"the bird wants to go out"
Yale: jek jeuk jái séung chèut heui
Jyutping: zek3 zoek3 zai2 soeng2 ceot1 heoi3
Always when there is a short vowel (in case of -eui, -eut, -eun), Jyutping uses 'eo'. Always when there is a long vowel (in case of -eu, -euk, -eung), Jyutping uses 'oe'.
It should be no real problem for Yale, because there is no ambiguity. You can always tell from the final consonant, what sound should be spoken. You have a similar behaviour for 'i' and 'u'. However, I think that short 'eu' and long 'eu' have nothing in common (unlike 'i' and 'u' where the sounds are similar). And therefore it makes good sense to spell them in differently.
Actually, many text books fail to point out the difference in pronounciation. E.g. look at the IPA entries for the two sounds in the table of the following web link.
No, I cannot recommend any book for Jyutping, because I have yet to see one. (Best reason to stick with Yale.) All what I have seen are web pages and they are mostly not made for people like us, but rather for linguists and teachers. For me, it was quite some detective work to find out how it works.
Try this page first. It tells you a lot, if you know Yale.
http://chinalanguage.com/CCDICT/Support/jyutpin.php
This is all in Chinese, but if you click around here, you fill find pages where you have Jyutping and the English translation for single words.
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Canton2
and see also
http://www.hku.hk/linguist/lshk/Jyutping/
Have fun
Helmut
-
Eugene Morrow
Yale eu and eui
Helmut,
Thank you for the excellent example, and the attention to detail.
I am relieved that Yale can accurately give pronunciations. I agree that there is a VERY big difference between heui and jeuk, yet the spelling looks very similar. I have learned to treat eui as a very special situation where there are two sounds: the first one like "oy" in "soy" and the second like an umlauh in german.
I am happy. In the end, I need romanisation simply to start me off, and later I should learn by simply speaking and listening, so in theory I won't need it anymore. I am grateful romanisation exists, because it helps a lot.
Thanks again for you help,
Eugene Morrow
Thank you for the excellent example, and the attention to detail.
I am relieved that Yale can accurately give pronunciations. I agree that there is a VERY big difference between heui and jeuk, yet the spelling looks very similar. I have learned to treat eui as a very special situation where there are two sounds: the first one like "oy" in "soy" and the second like an umlauh in german.
I am happy. In the end, I need romanisation simply to start me off, and later I should learn by simply speaking and listening, so in theory I won't need it anymore. I am grateful romanisation exists, because it helps a lot.
Thanks again for you help,
Eugene Morrow