The problem with non-Chinese Cantonese speakers taking offence at that term is that they tend to take it at face value. It is a metaphorical term describing those of Anglo descent. I could use the term 'sai-yan', but then i could also use the term 'the man of Anglo-American descent/ the man from a Caucasus region', when i could also easily say, 'that white bloke,'. My point is, that using 'sai-yan' sounds quite odd; it would be more at home in formal speech, or in the written language- i doubt you'd ever come across 'gwei-lao' in piece of formal writing.
Those people were actually racist. I still frequent my home town in Wales to visit grandparents' graves, and the attitude of people there has by and large remained unchanged.
learning cantonese-my experience
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nollie
Re: learning cantonese-my experience
Maybe it is a metaphor, but one could also try to justify the term "chink" in a similar way. I'm sure there are people out there who hold no racist intent when they use it, as it justs comes naturally to them. Respect and manners is about caring for the feelings of another over our own. It is not important what we feel when we say it, what is important is how the person being described feels. I ask you what is more important; you feeling strange about saying a word which is exactly the same length to its alternative, or someone feeling uncomfortable because the of your use of that word.
Informal langauge is by nature devoid of political correctness, and is often rude or offensive. Being described as a ghost is offensive as it implies not only colour but the fact that you consider this person dead. Your explanation that it is a metaphor, I am assuming is based on the fact that Chinese people on first seeing foreigners thought that they were ghosts. But how can you further justify this use to black people who hardly look like ghosts. The fact is that it originated in the Boxer rebellion and was used as a racist slur against the evil barbarians who were barely considered human. Today while its use often isn't racist, it still shows that in the underlaying sub-conscious of those who use it there exists a "us against them" mentality. You may say you don't have these thoughts but for some reason you resist elevating them to human status.
If you feel that changing this would be "odd"
this is clearly a symbol of what I am saying. If you earnestly are not racist, be uncomfortable and use another word.
Informal langauge is by nature devoid of political correctness, and is often rude or offensive. Being described as a ghost is offensive as it implies not only colour but the fact that you consider this person dead. Your explanation that it is a metaphor, I am assuming is based on the fact that Chinese people on first seeing foreigners thought that they were ghosts. But how can you further justify this use to black people who hardly look like ghosts. The fact is that it originated in the Boxer rebellion and was used as a racist slur against the evil barbarians who were barely considered human. Today while its use often isn't racist, it still shows that in the underlaying sub-conscious of those who use it there exists a "us against them" mentality. You may say you don't have these thoughts but for some reason you resist elevating them to human status.
If you feel that changing this would be "odd"
this is clearly a symbol of what I am saying. If you earnestly are not racist, be uncomfortable and use another word.
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Anon
Re: learning cantonese-my experience
You're asking that an entire language be changed just so that it conforms to what is considered PC so nobody would be offended (always minute in number, the busy-bodies, and those who incessantly complain).
The insidiousness of Political Correctness is that it gets everywhere and one has to be extremely careful about what one says and does all the time, which is an affront to human rights and freedom of speech.
PC is the enemy of language. One musn't say 'chairman' or 'chairwoman', rather 'chairperson'. We have a 'cave-person' not a 'cave-man'. One should never be described as 'disabled', rather, 'differently abled'. Political correctness gone crazy, i say.
The use of the '-gwei' in the formation of the term used to describe black people just shows my point that the original derogatory context in which that word was used is no longer- for a black person is hardly the fitting image of a traditional Chinese ghost. The original racist context of the usage of '-gwei' in gweilao is no longer. Much in the same way that the once generic pronoun 'him' has now been given gender, it is now the masculine pronoun. Once upon a time it could have been used to describe male or female (as once upon a time, was 'gweilao' considered a racist term), but that is no longer. Him is exclusively masculine, as gweilao/hukgwei is free of racialist meaning (at least amongst the majority).
“Informal language is by nature devoid of political correctness, and is often rude or offensive.”
(to above quote) I put this to you: what is Cantonese? An essentially spoken language, the INFORMAL vernacular of Standard (Formal) Cantonese [as used in news broadcasts, documentaries, formal occasions, written media et cetera]. You wouldn’t find ‘gweilao’ in a piece of formal writing; formal writing is in no way similar to the Cantonese vernacular, spoken Cantonese is a language unto itself. If spoken Cantonese were to be PC-fied, it would be an extremely boring, mundane language.
Everyone is different. Societies are different from one another morally and culturally. The sexes are different from each other in both their physical and mental capabilities. This is a fact yet PC refuses to allow us to accept this, so how are we supposed to appreciate and explore each others' strengths in a PC world where everyone is presupposed to be equal?
What is this world coming when I can’t even use my mother tongue’s only normal-hear-it-every-day-no-other-alternative-without-sounding-like-you’ve-got-an-iron-rod-stuck-up-your-arse way of describing a person of Anglo-descent?! You wouldn’t hear me saying ‘that Anglo- person over there,’ I’d say, ‘that white person over there,’ regardless that the white person over there isn’t actually coloured white, he has a slightly tan complexion, rather. If I’m to be branded racist for using the term ‘gweilao’, then I don’t care! Stuff those politically correct good for nothing busybodies.
PC is causing an intolerant and unreasonable knee-jerk society in which we are not allowed to openly discuss, or even laugh at, life. I am "politically correct"-ly challenged, and discriminated against by the "politically correct"-ist people with hidden agendas, and I feel I am a member of a silenced and exasperated majority.
The insidiousness of Political Correctness is that it gets everywhere and one has to be extremely careful about what one says and does all the time, which is an affront to human rights and freedom of speech.
PC is the enemy of language. One musn't say 'chairman' or 'chairwoman', rather 'chairperson'. We have a 'cave-person' not a 'cave-man'. One should never be described as 'disabled', rather, 'differently abled'. Political correctness gone crazy, i say.
The use of the '-gwei' in the formation of the term used to describe black people just shows my point that the original derogatory context in which that word was used is no longer- for a black person is hardly the fitting image of a traditional Chinese ghost. The original racist context of the usage of '-gwei' in gweilao is no longer. Much in the same way that the once generic pronoun 'him' has now been given gender, it is now the masculine pronoun. Once upon a time it could have been used to describe male or female (as once upon a time, was 'gweilao' considered a racist term), but that is no longer. Him is exclusively masculine, as gweilao/hukgwei is free of racialist meaning (at least amongst the majority).
“Informal language is by nature devoid of political correctness, and is often rude or offensive.”
(to above quote) I put this to you: what is Cantonese? An essentially spoken language, the INFORMAL vernacular of Standard (Formal) Cantonese [as used in news broadcasts, documentaries, formal occasions, written media et cetera]. You wouldn’t find ‘gweilao’ in a piece of formal writing; formal writing is in no way similar to the Cantonese vernacular, spoken Cantonese is a language unto itself. If spoken Cantonese were to be PC-fied, it would be an extremely boring, mundane language.
Everyone is different. Societies are different from one another morally and culturally. The sexes are different from each other in both their physical and mental capabilities. This is a fact yet PC refuses to allow us to accept this, so how are we supposed to appreciate and explore each others' strengths in a PC world where everyone is presupposed to be equal?
What is this world coming when I can’t even use my mother tongue’s only normal-hear-it-every-day-no-other-alternative-without-sounding-like-you’ve-got-an-iron-rod-stuck-up-your-arse way of describing a person of Anglo-descent?! You wouldn’t hear me saying ‘that Anglo- person over there,’ I’d say, ‘that white person over there,’ regardless that the white person over there isn’t actually coloured white, he has a slightly tan complexion, rather. If I’m to be branded racist for using the term ‘gweilao’, then I don’t care! Stuff those politically correct good for nothing busybodies.
PC is causing an intolerant and unreasonable knee-jerk society in which we are not allowed to openly discuss, or even laugh at, life. I am "politically correct"-ly challenged, and discriminated against by the "politically correct"-ist people with hidden agendas, and I feel I am a member of a silenced and exasperated majority.
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Anon
Re: My above posting
Sorry, please change your page encoding to _Traditional Big5_ when viewing my previous post. I just realised the apostrophies are a tad dodgy when viewed using the standard Western European encoding.
Thanks.
Thanks.
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radioboy
Re: My above posting
Anon
PC was necessary to show people the harm simple words can do; we cant always look at the meanings of what we say from other peoples viewpoint. PC is not the "enemy" of modern language as you suggest. Language is not a constant, it constantly evolves to suit our changing word. PC is the enemy only of the ignorant who cant give a damn about other peoples feelings.
You admitted all your friends are Cantonese, and I doubt you have had the experience of really getting to know a westerner, especially one who spoke cantonese. Thus you cant understand our viewpoint.
:
Sorry, please change your page encoding to _Traditional Big5_ when viewing my previous post. I just realised the apostrophies are a tad dodgy when viewed using the standard Western European encoding.
: Thanks.
PC was necessary to show people the harm simple words can do; we cant always look at the meanings of what we say from other peoples viewpoint. PC is not the "enemy" of modern language as you suggest. Language is not a constant, it constantly evolves to suit our changing word. PC is the enemy only of the ignorant who cant give a damn about other peoples feelings.
You admitted all your friends are Cantonese, and I doubt you have had the experience of really getting to know a westerner, especially one who spoke cantonese. Thus you cant understand our viewpoint.
:
Sorry, please change your page encoding to _Traditional Big5_ when viewing my previous post. I just realised the apostrophies are a tad dodgy when viewed using the standard Western European encoding.
: Thanks.
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Anon
Re: My above posting
How hypocritical of you!
"the ignorant who cant give a damn about other peoples feelings."
Where was your consideration when you declared that Cantonese was a foul language, composed of nowt but expletives and racist language? None did you show consideration, hypocrite thee so eager are you to offer criticism.
How on earth you managed to divulge from my previous posts that i had only Chinese friends Lord knows. I have you know the majority of my friends are of varying ethnic backgrounds, in fact pale is the shade of Chinese friends that i have in comparison to that of other ethnicities. London, the city in which i now live, is one of the most, if not the most, multicultural cities of the world, and thank the Lord that we Londoners don't concern ourselves and worry our little arses off to be PC. Why do i even justify myself to likes of thee?
_Political Correctness: the socio-paranoiac desease bordering on polemical overkill_ I once heard one say, and how painfully true. You are infected.
"PC is the enemy of the ignorant" I hear you say? I say rather, political correctness just adds to ignorance. Ignorant are those who feel they must conform to what is considered politically correct.
Political correctness is repugnant and offensive at its very core. Many neo-liberal bed-wetters contend that political correctness is a logical method of "common courtesy". Dog's Bullocks! Political correctness is an illogical method of COMMON STUPIDITY. PC is not just a harmless political dogma. On the contrary it is very dangerous, we must all realise the consequences and detrimental effects of politically correct stereotypes, rhetoric, and mindsets.
"the ignorant who cant give a damn about other peoples feelings."
Where was your consideration when you declared that Cantonese was a foul language, composed of nowt but expletives and racist language? None did you show consideration, hypocrite thee so eager are you to offer criticism.
How on earth you managed to divulge from my previous posts that i had only Chinese friends Lord knows. I have you know the majority of my friends are of varying ethnic backgrounds, in fact pale is the shade of Chinese friends that i have in comparison to that of other ethnicities. London, the city in which i now live, is one of the most, if not the most, multicultural cities of the world, and thank the Lord that we Londoners don't concern ourselves and worry our little arses off to be PC. Why do i even justify myself to likes of thee?
_Political Correctness: the socio-paranoiac desease bordering on polemical overkill_ I once heard one say, and how painfully true. You are infected.
"PC is the enemy of the ignorant" I hear you say? I say rather, political correctness just adds to ignorance. Ignorant are those who feel they must conform to what is considered politically correct.
Political correctness is repugnant and offensive at its very core. Many neo-liberal bed-wetters contend that political correctness is a logical method of "common courtesy". Dog's Bullocks! Political correctness is an illogical method of COMMON STUPIDITY. PC is not just a harmless political dogma. On the contrary it is very dangerous, we must all realise the consequences and detrimental effects of politically correct stereotypes, rhetoric, and mindsets.
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Anon
Re: learning cantonese-my experience
Short and Sharp. I think not.
You're confusing Duck for Goose here. The terms Gweilao and your charming little formation of 'logwei' have nothing in comparison at all. Just by adding 'gwei' you think that something will be deemed derogative? Well, that just isn't the case. Indeed many phrases and phrases that function and single words include the 'gwei', ie. as in, gwei-gam-leng: very good-looking. That's not offensive, is it? Or perhaps just to be on the safe PC side, we should find an alternative for 'gwei', and exclude that word from all our vocabulary- for we can't have anyone thinking we're making a comparison between them and ghost! Heavens no! That would be a shameful atrocity!
You must understand the way Chinese etiquette functions; one would never consider using any formation of 'lo' to describe one's parents. Even though that word carries no derogative meaning in itself or any formation i can think of. If the charming phrase 'logwei' of yours was in popular use, and there was no easyspeak alternative (as in the case of gweilao) then i'm sure you'd hear all the kids in HK calling fondly their parents Logwei.
You're fighting a losing battle here. You're trying to compare two painfully differently cultures and societies. A society made up of an increasing number of individuals over-concerning themselves with being PC to the extent that life is a mundane and boring affair for themselves although they don’t realise it because they’re blinded by their own PC ignorance, and they make it worse for those who wish not to conform to PC dogma, simply because they enjoy life and don’t want to be bogged down by such horrendous stupidity, to one whose vibrant language has thus far managed to escape the evil scourge that is PCness. I’m not saying that the latter is a perfect society or culture, because it isn’t. No culture or society is totally free from prejudice or discrimination.
Some may find the term gweilao offensive, indeed you do, but you must understand the culture in which that term is used. It isn't a racist one, it is rarely used in racist context. If history is to be effectively learned from and properly understood, then we mustn't place blame on each other based on the context of historical events which cannot be altered. I'm talking about the boxer uprising from which the term was derived. History mustn’t be taught directing generalised hostility towards a broad-based group of people who live in the present. We cannot change our biological differences (in this case race, but not excluding gender and sexual orientation), but we can celebrate them.
Taken from my former post:
Political correctness is an illogical method of COMMON STUPIDITY. PC is not just a harmless political dogma. On the contrary it is very dangerous, we must all realise the consequences and detrimental effects of politically correct stereotypes, rhetoric, and mindsets.
You're confusing Duck for Goose here. The terms Gweilao and your charming little formation of 'logwei' have nothing in comparison at all. Just by adding 'gwei' you think that something will be deemed derogative? Well, that just isn't the case. Indeed many phrases and phrases that function and single words include the 'gwei', ie. as in, gwei-gam-leng: very good-looking. That's not offensive, is it? Or perhaps just to be on the safe PC side, we should find an alternative for 'gwei', and exclude that word from all our vocabulary- for we can't have anyone thinking we're making a comparison between them and ghost! Heavens no! That would be a shameful atrocity!
You must understand the way Chinese etiquette functions; one would never consider using any formation of 'lo' to describe one's parents. Even though that word carries no derogative meaning in itself or any formation i can think of. If the charming phrase 'logwei' of yours was in popular use, and there was no easyspeak alternative (as in the case of gweilao) then i'm sure you'd hear all the kids in HK calling fondly their parents Logwei.
You're fighting a losing battle here. You're trying to compare two painfully differently cultures and societies. A society made up of an increasing number of individuals over-concerning themselves with being PC to the extent that life is a mundane and boring affair for themselves although they don’t realise it because they’re blinded by their own PC ignorance, and they make it worse for those who wish not to conform to PC dogma, simply because they enjoy life and don’t want to be bogged down by such horrendous stupidity, to one whose vibrant language has thus far managed to escape the evil scourge that is PCness. I’m not saying that the latter is a perfect society or culture, because it isn’t. No culture or society is totally free from prejudice or discrimination.
Some may find the term gweilao offensive, indeed you do, but you must understand the culture in which that term is used. It isn't a racist one, it is rarely used in racist context. If history is to be effectively learned from and properly understood, then we mustn't place blame on each other based on the context of historical events which cannot be altered. I'm talking about the boxer uprising from which the term was derived. History mustn’t be taught directing generalised hostility towards a broad-based group of people who live in the present. We cannot change our biological differences (in this case race, but not excluding gender and sexual orientation), but we can celebrate them.
Taken from my former post:
Political correctness is an illogical method of COMMON STUPIDITY. PC is not just a harmless political dogma. On the contrary it is very dangerous, we must all realise the consequences and detrimental effects of politically correct stereotypes, rhetoric, and mindsets.
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Anon
Re: My above posting
Wow... i never realised how many mistakes were in that... soz y'all, i rushed it!
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nollie
Re: learning cantonese-my experience
I am not saying its necessarily derrogative I'm just trying to make you understand that it's grammatical function is not meaning person. If it was you would hear Chinese people refer to themselves as guei. So all I can guess is that its used for people who are not Chinese.As I said before this negatively emphasises a difference between Chinese people and non-Asians. Are you telling me that in Chinese culture, ghosts are benevolent creatures who sole aim is the betterment of humankind? I think not.
Do you really think that your celebrating some one's whiteness when you call them a guai? That pretty funny. Lets celebrate your Chinese heritage by calling you a "slit". Personally I would regard that as unacceptable.
Do you really think that your celebrating some one's whiteness when you call them a guai? That pretty funny. Lets celebrate your Chinese heritage by calling you a "slit". Personally I would regard that as unacceptable.