Cantonese originally not Chinese???
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ppk
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
no. the sound of 'yue' came much later cos 'yue' is modern mandarin pronounciation, which probably came into the picture only after 1300ad. the ancient pronounciation probably sounded more like 'viet'. the chinese written character of 'yue', however, is of a longer history, more than 2200yrs. i am not sure of this but i have the impression that the vietnamese has no writing of their own in the beginning, and they borrowed chinese words to 'romanise' their language, like chinese using the alphabet in 'hanyu pinyin'. so they probably borrowed the writing form of 'yue' in chinese but pronouced it in their way, as 'viet'.
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Terence
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
Thanks PPK, then could you tell me if vietnamese think that the term 'viet' is from yue and it bears the same recognition as Chinese' s yue. Some Chinese scholars said that yue 越was actually evolved from hotness熱indicating the area without snow. Do you have any idea on this.
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ppk
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
i have not done a thorough search, but i believe 'viet' is how the aborigins in vietnam/canton area called themselves. the chinese used a chinese word that sounded like 'viet' to address these neighbours/opponents, and the word is the chinese character 'yue'. the vietnamese adopted a lot of chinese culture and they probably adopted the word the chinese used to address them too. both 'hotness' and 'yue' probably co-existed in ancient china, not one after another, so its not quite possible 'yue' came from 'hotness'. 'yue' was initially used as a verb, meaning to 'cross over', and it is also the name of an ancient state, said to be from the descendants of the ruler 'shaokang' in xia dynasty. they fought with the state of 'wu' during the 'spring anf fall' era in ancient china(around 500-460 bc).
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Terence
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
I know the Wu-yue history but that's what I wonder if that yue in Wu-yue is the same as yue/viet. It's probably not, I think. I interpret that baiyue is a term calling the southerners who have similar customs and outlook as wu-yue's yue. And it[s a name given by Han to those foreigners whom they were not familiar with. As time went by, Han distinguish East and West Ou, Dong, Men-yue, Li, Miu. Yiu. Mao. Liu. among Bai yue. So whether viet is a collective name the vietnamese used to include baiyue or just an individual tribe among bai yue. Moreover, north vietnam was called by Han as Couchin during Han dynasty, it seemed to have no relation with viet. Thus I can't find why vietnam is written as 越南in Chinese history. Does Vietnamese have a Chinese writing form for viet? Is it the same as that written in Chinese. Could you do me a favour to check it out since I have little knowledge on vietnamese.
To pay you, I hereby posted a legend which gave way to test whether you Cantonese is an descendant of the aborigines of yue: If both of your little toes have two layers of nail. you are pure native descendants. If it happens on either one foot, your northern ancesters had married the aborigines.
To pay you, I hereby posted a legend which gave way to test whether you Cantonese is an descendant of the aborigines of yue: If both of your little toes have two layers of nail. you are pure native descendants. If it happens on either one foot, your northern ancesters had married the aborigines.
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ppk
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
the 'yue' in wu-yue conflicts were the later min'yue people. also called 'dong yue' before han dynasty. their surname is 'luo' as in 'luo'tuo'(camel). i think 'min' was pronounced as either 'bun', 'bin', 'mun' or 'min' in han dynasty. the chinese called the few ancient states in vietnam as ri'nan, jiao'zhi, lin'yi etc till tang dynasty. in ming the name of zhan'cheng(champa?!) and an'nam was used. they have learned writing since the sui dynasty, probably from the palivian buddhism sutras from sri lanka. burma, thailand, cambodia and indonesia had similiar writings. from what i know chinese was only used as a pinyin, so reading the chinese writings have no meaning unless one can figure out the palivian/vietnamese word it symbolised.
yeah i got 2 layers of nails on both little toes, and my ancestors were from fujian(hokkien, i am a hoklo) around 10+ generations ago, which is quite recent. so the chances are that they didnt marry any aborigins(cos there are no more when they arrive) and i'm probably a northern chinese native(my ancestors moved to fujian in early song dynasty, probably 25 generations ago). the other thing i heard is single eyelid. all the terra cotta warriors in the qin shi huang tomb were probably single eyelid and i think they are the true northerners. i think double eyelids only came after buddhism was introduced into china and we start to see double eyelids in buddhism sculptures or paintings. so those with double eyelids probably had some foreign blood in their family somewhere in history.
yeah i got 2 layers of nails on both little toes, and my ancestors were from fujian(hokkien, i am a hoklo) around 10+ generations ago, which is quite recent. so the chances are that they didnt marry any aborigins(cos there are no more when they arrive) and i'm probably a northern chinese native(my ancestors moved to fujian in early song dynasty, probably 25 generations ago). the other thing i heard is single eyelid. all the terra cotta warriors in the qin shi huang tomb were probably single eyelid and i think they are the true northerners. i think double eyelids only came after buddhism was introduced into china and we start to see double eyelids in buddhism sculptures or paintings. so those with double eyelids probably had some foreign blood in their family somewhere in history.
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Terence
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
Dear PPk,
Thanks for having reminded me that Vietnam had once been called Rinan. I have probably figured out the answer for my own question. Thankyou.
Thanks for having reminded me that Vietnam had once been called Rinan. I have probably figured out the answer for my own question. Thankyou.
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Sum Won
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
Well, to clarify whether or not VietNam written in Chinese (by the VietNamese) the same or not, for those who haven't figured out Terence's answer to his own question, it is. For reminders, VietNam was also conquered by the Chinese for a few millenias. Even now, if you read in earlier posts, many VietNamese surnames can be translated in Chinese. It wasn't until the Portuguese dictionary for the VietNamese language (which was made for Europeans), which introduced any Romanization to their writing system. Even the VietNamese (Kinh) in China, don't use this system (I'm not sure if they [the Kinh] still retain their pronounciations to the Chinese words, and how their VietNamese dialect is to Northern VietNamese).
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James Campbell
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
Vietnamese (language) has been influenced by Chinese in the same ways that Korean and Japanese have. A large percentage of vocabulary is Sinitic (for example, more than 60% in Korean).
The Vietnamese tonal system is also based on the Chinese system (Ping, Shang, Qu, Ru) and all Chinese words are dispersed in Vietnamese tones the same way as in any other Chinese dialect. There are some key differences however such as tone merging.
Vietnamese character readings are closer to Ancient Chinese than Cantonese or any other language or Sinoxenic language such as Korean. In fact, the only other language that has a trace of as much similarity with Ancient Chinese that Vietnamese has is Southern Min. The reason for this is because Southern Min branched from Ancient Chinese as a dialect much earlier than any of the other dialects (during Han dynasty) which is around the same time as the influence of Ancient Chinese on Vietnamese. For example, in the Geng (canh) rhyme group, the palatal stop and nasal endings have disappeared in all the languages except Vietnamese (spelled -nh and -ch in Vietnamese). Southern Min has two readings for characters. Based on my research, the literary readings seem to be later imports from northern China, and the colloquial readings are truly ancient remnants. It is in these colloquial readings that you find the palatal nasal ending remnants in S. Min which are pronounced now as nasalization of preceding vowel. Take for example Vietnamese minh and Taiwanese miaN or mia~.
There is also a lot of non-Sinitic Vietnamese vocabulary, but they are adopted into the Chinese tonal system. You'll find that words beginning with nasals and other voiced consonants are pronounced in the upper Yin tones which is against the Chinese development. You'll also find this phenomenon existing in the Nanning Pinghua dialect of Cantonese where an Ru Yin and Ru Yang have split into a total of four tones, but the uppermost Ru Yin is saved specifically for non-Sinitic vocabulary having been borrowed from other local languages, and not conforming to the voicing rules of Chinese pronunciation.
So based on my research and understanding, Vietnamese actually not only borrowed a lot of Sinitic vocabulary but also the tonal system of Chinese. I haven't done so, but if compared to other Mon-Khmer local languages in Vietnam and neighboring countries you will undoubtedly find a completely different tonal system. And this might be one of the reasons why Vietnamese remained unclassified for so many years, because these vocabulary and tonal differences makes it so different to its neighboring languages.
The Vietnamese tonal system is also based on the Chinese system (Ping, Shang, Qu, Ru) and all Chinese words are dispersed in Vietnamese tones the same way as in any other Chinese dialect. There are some key differences however such as tone merging.
Vietnamese character readings are closer to Ancient Chinese than Cantonese or any other language or Sinoxenic language such as Korean. In fact, the only other language that has a trace of as much similarity with Ancient Chinese that Vietnamese has is Southern Min. The reason for this is because Southern Min branched from Ancient Chinese as a dialect much earlier than any of the other dialects (during Han dynasty) which is around the same time as the influence of Ancient Chinese on Vietnamese. For example, in the Geng (canh) rhyme group, the palatal stop and nasal endings have disappeared in all the languages except Vietnamese (spelled -nh and -ch in Vietnamese). Southern Min has two readings for characters. Based on my research, the literary readings seem to be later imports from northern China, and the colloquial readings are truly ancient remnants. It is in these colloquial readings that you find the palatal nasal ending remnants in S. Min which are pronounced now as nasalization of preceding vowel. Take for example Vietnamese minh and Taiwanese miaN or mia~.
There is also a lot of non-Sinitic Vietnamese vocabulary, but they are adopted into the Chinese tonal system. You'll find that words beginning with nasals and other voiced consonants are pronounced in the upper Yin tones which is against the Chinese development. You'll also find this phenomenon existing in the Nanning Pinghua dialect of Cantonese where an Ru Yin and Ru Yang have split into a total of four tones, but the uppermost Ru Yin is saved specifically for non-Sinitic vocabulary having been borrowed from other local languages, and not conforming to the voicing rules of Chinese pronunciation.
So based on my research and understanding, Vietnamese actually not only borrowed a lot of Sinitic vocabulary but also the tonal system of Chinese. I haven't done so, but if compared to other Mon-Khmer local languages in Vietnam and neighboring countries you will undoubtedly find a completely different tonal system. And this might be one of the reasons why Vietnamese remained unclassified for so many years, because these vocabulary and tonal differences makes it so different to its neighboring languages.
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Sum Won
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
Actually, the Yue kingdom (which included the LingNam regions, and modern-day FuJian) was already conquered by the Chinese during the warring States period, and became a part of the Chu territory.
Regarding the "NanNing PingHua" dialect, do you mean what everyone else calls "GuangXi-Cantonese"? If you are, then can you list a few examples of words? Because the whole tonal system is pretty confusing, and I can only here the differences between most of them, when I hear them in context to a sentence.
Now, the VietNamese tonal system, sounds something like this:
dau hoi = high rising with tenseness
dau nga = high rising with glottalization
dau ngang = high-mid, trailing-falling
dau huyen = low, trailing, laxness
dau hoi = mid-low, drooping, tenseness
dau nang = low, droping, glottalization/tenseness (In the southern variant of VietNamese, this has no glottalization)
*correct me if I'm spelling the "dau" incorrectly*
I'm not sure if they borrowed from the Sinitic tones, but I am sure that I haven't heard GuangXi-Cantonese or GuangFu Cantonese having the dau nang or dau hoi.
About your nasal-palate issue, I've noticed that in VietNamese and MinNan too. However, alot of "ih" sounds in Cantonese have always been twisted to more of an "ea" sound (Like the English pronounciation of "yeah").
Ging (scared) when Cantonese read the word. Geang when Cantonese say the word, and Gia in MinNan.
Maybe an example of word-twists can come from the surname Zheng (As in the Ekin Cheng's surname, or the eunuch admiral Zheng He).
In VietNamese, it's pronounced: Trinh
In Cantonese it's pronounced: Jeang
In MinNan: ???? (Maybe you can help me out on that one...)
Regarding the "NanNing PingHua" dialect, do you mean what everyone else calls "GuangXi-Cantonese"? If you are, then can you list a few examples of words? Because the whole tonal system is pretty confusing, and I can only here the differences between most of them, when I hear them in context to a sentence.
Now, the VietNamese tonal system, sounds something like this:
dau hoi = high rising with tenseness
dau nga = high rising with glottalization
dau ngang = high-mid, trailing-falling
dau huyen = low, trailing, laxness
dau hoi = mid-low, drooping, tenseness
dau nang = low, droping, glottalization/tenseness (In the southern variant of VietNamese, this has no glottalization)
*correct me if I'm spelling the "dau" incorrectly*
I'm not sure if they borrowed from the Sinitic tones, but I am sure that I haven't heard GuangXi-Cantonese or GuangFu Cantonese having the dau nang or dau hoi.
About your nasal-palate issue, I've noticed that in VietNamese and MinNan too. However, alot of "ih" sounds in Cantonese have always been twisted to more of an "ea" sound (Like the English pronounciation of "yeah").
Ging (scared) when Cantonese read the word. Geang when Cantonese say the word, and Gia in MinNan.
Maybe an example of word-twists can come from the surname Zheng (As in the Ekin Cheng's surname, or the eunuch admiral Zheng He).
In VietNamese, it's pronounced: Trinh
In Cantonese it's pronounced: Jeang
In MinNan: ???? (Maybe you can help me out on that one...)
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James Campbell
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
Well, maybe everybody calls it Guangxi Cantonese, but I've never seen any scholar write about it in this way. It's called Nanning Pinghua, and some scholars argue that Pinghua is a separate Chinese language. However, I have done a lot of tone analysis on the languages, and just by looking at the tone structure can tell you what language it is. Pinghua definitely resembles Yue in this regard.
MinNan (do you mind if I use BanLam?) does not use a voiced velar /g/ in this word (scared), it is actually an unaspirated /k/ and should be spelled kiaN with a nasal at the end.
Here are the readings for 鄭 in several languages:
Ancient Chinese: djiaenj (Qu tone) where dj = palatal d, ae = front a, similar to Cantonese a (as opposed to aa), nj = palatal n.
BanLam: tiN7 (Yang Qu) colloquial reading. teng7 literary reading. Goes into Yang tone because ancient reading was voiced. The teng actually sounds more like tieng, a natural sound shift.
VietNam: trinh (nang = Yang Qu). Retains ancient palatal n in coda.
Yue: tSeng6 (Yang Qu). tS = postalveolar affricate ts. Goes into lower Qu (Yang) tone because ancient reading was voiced. Your 'ea' sound is the result of sound shifts during recent decades and is perfectly natural.
Mandarin: tsr@ng4 = pinyin zheng4 (Qu tone). tsr = retroflex affricate ts. @ = turned e. No split in Mandarin Qu tone.
What's of interest to me however is some phonological similarities between Qiong Min and Vietnamese which I show some examples of at the bottom of this post.
As for the tones, tone contours are completely irrelevant to the whole tonal structure. Some dialects pronounce the same character up, some down, but the tone category is still the same.
In order to better understand the tone system of Vietnamese (or even Cantonese and some dialects of Wu that have as many as 11 tones (吳江黎里鎮)), one needs to understand that each of the 4 categories of tones can be split a basic 4 ways depending on the features of the ancient onset consonant. The features are categorized as 全清 quanqing (unvoiced unaspirated), 次清 ciqing (unvoiced aspirated), 全濁 quanzhuo (voiced unaspirated), and 次濁 cizhuo (voiced aspirated). More distinctions are made for Wu dialects (and for the various merges of Ru tones and Qu->Shang in Mandarin). The first two (unvoiced) are traditionally Yin (feminine), the last two (voiced), Yang (masculine). The Yin is dominant. All Sinitic Chinese languages have the Ping split into Yin and Yang. Mandarin Ru tones have all merged into the Ping, Shang, and Qu tones, and neither the Shang nor Qu have splits, thus yielding four tones: Yin Ping, Yang Ping, Shang and Qu. A 'natural' Chinese language would have 8 tones with an Yin and Yang split in each category.
Unlike any of the Sinitic Chinese languages, Vietnamese reading of Han characters has a merge of cizhuo (traditionally Yang Ping) with the qing characters, leaving only quanzhuo to be read as Yang Ping. This means that half the words in Mandarin read as 2nd tone (Yang Ping) are read as bang (Yin Ping) in Vietnamese, the other half (only the quanzhuo) as huyen (Yang Ping).
The splitting of the Yin Ru tone in Cantonese is a special case. The occurrence of an 'ae' or 'a' in Ancient Chinese Ru tone has caused a split in Yin Ru so that all such characters are now read in the lower Yin Ru tone.
The tones in Vietnamese correspond to the Sinitic ones as follows: Yin Ping = bang, Yang Ping = huyen, Yin Shang = hoi, Yang Shang = nga, Yin Qu = sac, Yang Qu = nang, Yin Ru (merged with Yin Qu) = sac, and Yang Ru (merged with Yang Qu) = nang. With two merges, this yields 6 tones in Vietnamese. There are also regional differences between the south and north.
It might have been the other way around to what I wrote in my last post. Perhaps the Vietnamese tone system was already in place, and the Chinese tones were given Vietnamese readings according to the ordering of their tones (Chinese characters adopting Vietnamese tones). But yet it's hard to imagine since the tone system so closely resembles any other Sinitic language. Notice that the Chinese Yin and Yang of Ping, Shang and Qu follow the order of Vietnamese tone ordering: bang, huyen, hoi, nga, sac, nang. And then the Ru tones simply adopted the Qu tone readings.
Here is a quote from 王力's 漢越語研究 page 55, that helps explain the Sino-Viet tones: “在中國各地的方言裡，如果聲調分為陰陽兩類，則古清母的字讀入陰調類，古清母的字讀入陽調類。在越漢語裡，大致也是依照一個規則，只是對於 ‘次濁’ 的字與中國語的規則稍有不同。”
Here are the Nanning tones where I = Ping, II = Shang, III = Qu, IV = Ru:
......I....II...III...IV.upper/lower
Yin...53...33...55...5./.3
Yang..21...24...24...23./.2
I will show some supporting evidence for Hainanese Min (Haikou) and Vietnamese onsets that show an areal phonological phenomenon. In this case it is where fricatives become stops. It's sort of the lisp (lithp) phenomenon but in this case the whole language has undergone these changes. The last example shows how Hainanese alveolopalatal affricates become alveolar fricatives proving that Hainanese speakers can still pronounce an 's' and that everybody really doesn't have a lisp. My tone notation is as follows: four categories I-IV (1-4), Yin and Yang = A, B. Hainanese tone contours are:
......I....II...III...IV
Yin...13...31...35...5
Yang..22........33...3
時 (Mandarin SI 1B, time) H. ti 1B, Viet. thi 1B or tho'i 1B
是 (M. SI 3, be) H. ti 3B, Viet. the^ 3A
三 (M. san 1A, three) H. ta 1A, Viet. tam 1A
寫 (M. c,ie 2, write) H. tia 2A, Viet. ta 2A
說 (M. Suo 4A->1A, say) H. te 4A, Viet. thue^ or thuye^t 4A=3A
左 (M. tsuo 2, left) H. to 2A, Viet. ta 3A or ta 2A
罪 (M. tsuei 3, sin) H. tui 3B, Viet. toi^ 3B
and a different kind of phenomenon:
全 (M. tc,hyan 1B, whole) H. suang 1B, Viet. toan 1B or tuye^n 1B.
There is a great long list of examples where both the Hainanese and Vietnamese have readings of t or th that appear as sibilants or continuants in most other Sinitic languages. This does not mean that Vietnamese or Hainanese lack words that start with s or z, it's just that this particular list of words come from ancient onsets of the following classes: 神 shen, 審 shen, 禪 chan, 精 jing, 清 qing, 從 cong, 心 xin, and 邪 xie.
Regards,
James Campbell
MinNan (do you mind if I use BanLam?) does not use a voiced velar /g/ in this word (scared), it is actually an unaspirated /k/ and should be spelled kiaN with a nasal at the end.
Here are the readings for 鄭 in several languages:
Ancient Chinese: djiaenj (Qu tone) where dj = palatal d, ae = front a, similar to Cantonese a (as opposed to aa), nj = palatal n.
BanLam: tiN7 (Yang Qu) colloquial reading. teng7 literary reading. Goes into Yang tone because ancient reading was voiced. The teng actually sounds more like tieng, a natural sound shift.
VietNam: trinh (nang = Yang Qu). Retains ancient palatal n in coda.
Yue: tSeng6 (Yang Qu). tS = postalveolar affricate ts. Goes into lower Qu (Yang) tone because ancient reading was voiced. Your 'ea' sound is the result of sound shifts during recent decades and is perfectly natural.
Mandarin: tsr@ng4 = pinyin zheng4 (Qu tone). tsr = retroflex affricate ts. @ = turned e. No split in Mandarin Qu tone.
What's of interest to me however is some phonological similarities between Qiong Min and Vietnamese which I show some examples of at the bottom of this post.
As for the tones, tone contours are completely irrelevant to the whole tonal structure. Some dialects pronounce the same character up, some down, but the tone category is still the same.
In order to better understand the tone system of Vietnamese (or even Cantonese and some dialects of Wu that have as many as 11 tones (吳江黎里鎮)), one needs to understand that each of the 4 categories of tones can be split a basic 4 ways depending on the features of the ancient onset consonant. The features are categorized as 全清 quanqing (unvoiced unaspirated), 次清 ciqing (unvoiced aspirated), 全濁 quanzhuo (voiced unaspirated), and 次濁 cizhuo (voiced aspirated). More distinctions are made for Wu dialects (and for the various merges of Ru tones and Qu->Shang in Mandarin). The first two (unvoiced) are traditionally Yin (feminine), the last two (voiced), Yang (masculine). The Yin is dominant. All Sinitic Chinese languages have the Ping split into Yin and Yang. Mandarin Ru tones have all merged into the Ping, Shang, and Qu tones, and neither the Shang nor Qu have splits, thus yielding four tones: Yin Ping, Yang Ping, Shang and Qu. A 'natural' Chinese language would have 8 tones with an Yin and Yang split in each category.
Unlike any of the Sinitic Chinese languages, Vietnamese reading of Han characters has a merge of cizhuo (traditionally Yang Ping) with the qing characters, leaving only quanzhuo to be read as Yang Ping. This means that half the words in Mandarin read as 2nd tone (Yang Ping) are read as bang (Yin Ping) in Vietnamese, the other half (only the quanzhuo) as huyen (Yang Ping).
The splitting of the Yin Ru tone in Cantonese is a special case. The occurrence of an 'ae' or 'a' in Ancient Chinese Ru tone has caused a split in Yin Ru so that all such characters are now read in the lower Yin Ru tone.
The tones in Vietnamese correspond to the Sinitic ones as follows: Yin Ping = bang, Yang Ping = huyen, Yin Shang = hoi, Yang Shang = nga, Yin Qu = sac, Yang Qu = nang, Yin Ru (merged with Yin Qu) = sac, and Yang Ru (merged with Yang Qu) = nang. With two merges, this yields 6 tones in Vietnamese. There are also regional differences between the south and north.
It might have been the other way around to what I wrote in my last post. Perhaps the Vietnamese tone system was already in place, and the Chinese tones were given Vietnamese readings according to the ordering of their tones (Chinese characters adopting Vietnamese tones). But yet it's hard to imagine since the tone system so closely resembles any other Sinitic language. Notice that the Chinese Yin and Yang of Ping, Shang and Qu follow the order of Vietnamese tone ordering: bang, huyen, hoi, nga, sac, nang. And then the Ru tones simply adopted the Qu tone readings.
Here is a quote from 王力's 漢越語研究 page 55, that helps explain the Sino-Viet tones: “在中國各地的方言裡，如果聲調分為陰陽兩類，則古清母的字讀入陰調類，古清母的字讀入陽調類。在越漢語裡，大致也是依照一個規則，只是對於 ‘次濁’ 的字與中國語的規則稍有不同。”
Here are the Nanning tones where I = Ping, II = Shang, III = Qu, IV = Ru:
......I....II...III...IV.upper/lower
Yin...53...33...55...5./.3
Yang..21...24...24...23./.2
I will show some supporting evidence for Hainanese Min (Haikou) and Vietnamese onsets that show an areal phonological phenomenon. In this case it is where fricatives become stops. It's sort of the lisp (lithp) phenomenon but in this case the whole language has undergone these changes. The last example shows how Hainanese alveolopalatal affricates become alveolar fricatives proving that Hainanese speakers can still pronounce an 's' and that everybody really doesn't have a lisp. My tone notation is as follows: four categories I-IV (1-4), Yin and Yang = A, B. Hainanese tone contours are:
......I....II...III...IV
Yin...13...31...35...5
Yang..22........33...3
時 (Mandarin SI 1B, time) H. ti 1B, Viet. thi 1B or tho'i 1B
是 (M. SI 3, be) H. ti 3B, Viet. the^ 3A
三 (M. san 1A, three) H. ta 1A, Viet. tam 1A
寫 (M. c,ie 2, write) H. tia 2A, Viet. ta 2A
說 (M. Suo 4A->1A, say) H. te 4A, Viet. thue^ or thuye^t 4A=3A
左 (M. tsuo 2, left) H. to 2A, Viet. ta 3A or ta 2A
罪 (M. tsuei 3, sin) H. tui 3B, Viet. toi^ 3B
and a different kind of phenomenon:
全 (M. tc,hyan 1B, whole) H. suang 1B, Viet. toan 1B or tuye^n 1B.
There is a great long list of examples where both the Hainanese and Vietnamese have readings of t or th that appear as sibilants or continuants in most other Sinitic languages. This does not mean that Vietnamese or Hainanese lack words that start with s or z, it's just that this particular list of words come from ancient onsets of the following classes: 神 shen, 審 shen, 禪 chan, 精 jing, 清 qing, 從 cong, 心 xin, and 邪 xie.
Regards,
James Campbell