Cantonese originally not Chinese???

[ppk]

in chinese dialects there are formal and informal pronouciation. like 'people' in hokkien can be pronounced as 'nang' or 'lang' in spoken hokkien and 'jin' in formal hokkien. in chinese its called 'wendu'(literal pronouciation) and 'baidu'(common tongue pronouciation). if we use 'shuiren'(谁人) as example then i am pretty sure there is a pronouciation in both cantonese and hakka for 'shui'(who)

[Sum Won]

You are correct about when the term "Canton" came about. However, as I guess I haven't said it clearly; "sorry for not being politically correct, or historically concise" about the term "Canton". Yes, by the time "Canton" was used, the Yue people have long inter-married with their conquerers. On matters of the "formal/informal" pronounciations, you can't deny a possibility that informal pronounciations are a result of the aboriginal language mixed with Tang-Chinese still lingering in daily speech, while the formal pronounciations are a result of Tang-Chinese in it's slightly purer form.

*Note for any of you barely reading this, that this "formal/informal pronounciation is only present in southern dialects. Mandarin words are pronounced the same way no matter what. The only difference is in the use of words, which form the wendu/baidu difference.*

[ppk]

well we never knew how the yue language and ancient mandarin was actually like, so its still hard to decide which had more influence on which. wendu/baidu oso occured in other northern dialects. mandarin dont just appear in history out of nowhere. it came from the older dialects. wendu and baidu means for the common dialogues and reading from text some words have different pronouciation. this difference is here cos ancient mandarin is closer to the dialects. when reading historical text and names and events of ancient ppl and happenings, we have to use the old pronouciation. its not a matter of purer form. example:

1. chanyu(单于) both as a surname and the title of the huns(xiongnu) rulers cannot be pronouced as 'danyu'.
2. boruo(般若) is a buddhist term directly translated from sanskrit so it has to remain as 'boruo' instead of 'banruo' in mandarin.
3. canci buqi(参差不齐) cannot be pronouced as can'cha' buqi.
4. most poems in 'shijing'(诗经，book of poems) have to be pronounce in ancient way even when we read them in mandarin.

besides, there is change of pronouciation in mandarin due to habits, like:
呆板 or 垃圾 can be pronouced as 'aiban' and 'daiban', 'laji' and 'lese'.

mandarin came about when ancient dialects evolved, adding or removed certain features. it isnt and never was a language on its own. mandarin is just the common tongue for the chinese. the northern dialects are chosen as mandarin cos more ppl in china speaks and understands it presently. southern dialects appeared cos they 'were' the common tongue last time, meaning in ancient times(qin-han) people in the north oso speak a language like cantonese, and northern people in middle age china(sui-song) speak something like hokkien or teochew. ppl in the south didnt develope together with the north and the difference in dialects became significant.

[Sum Won]

Thank you, for that information. I actually managed to learn some stuff that can actually help me incorporate new information into my research (unlike many previous posts). However, can you or someone else clarify the precise evolutionary period of Chinese? Because the time between the Sui to Song dynasty is quite alot.
There is one minor thing I think you left out (I could be wrong though): Mandarin has also changed because of politics also. This is evident, in some texts by one emperor, writing his own father's name, but left out a stroke purposefully, so that he would avoid actually writing it (in Chinese --as I'm sure you'd know-- that emperors' names are avoided being said/written). Another example of avoidance, but with a change in pronounciation of words, would be the Mandarin pronounciation of "chicken". Because some famous guy's --I forgot whether or not he was an emperor-- wife's name rhymed with the old term for chicken, so everyone changed the pronounciation from "zhi" to the modern-day "Ji".
I got this from watching a bunch of episodes of "Li Ao: Da Ge Da". One thing I'm puzzled with the "chicken episode", is that I'm not sure whether or not this "verbal avoidance" of words also applied to dialects of the south.

[ppk]

yes, sometime prounouciation changed with certain events. but that part was not closely monitored. i wonder if there are any writings on that. the usual case is that they change to another word. for the names of emperors, it only apply to emperors of the same dynasty.

example the ppl in song dynasty can address and use the words included in the name of the emperors in han or tang dynasty. example, like the backdoor of the imperial palace in beijing was call 'xuanwu men'(xuanwu gate. 'xuanwu' is a mythical creature signifying the north direction. chinese houses in northern china usually had back door to the north bcos of natural climate) since ming dynasty. but it coincides with the name of emperor kangxi in qing dynasty, which is 'xuanye', so the name 'xuanwu men' was changed to 'shenwu men'(shenwu gate) during kangxi's era, and used since then. but the writings changed totally. as u said, name of emperors cannot be addressed or written. so i think using another word is the common practise, instead of just changing the pronouciation.

taking away strokes only happen in younger ppl writing words that are included in the names of their parents and grandparents. in old chinese society where moral values ruled, calling elders by name is considered disrespectful and it grew to avoid using the exact words as well. but it is no more like like now. if u read 'the dreams of the red mansions'(hong lou meng) there is a part when a girl, called lin daiyu, was writing in class, and her teacher found out she purposely miss a stroke everytime she's writing a certain word. then he realized it was included in the name of her mother and she had to avoid writing the exact word.

[Sum Won]

OK, now from the previous debates, I believe most (if not all) acknowledge that the Cantonese were ORIGINALLY not Chinese. Now, to go on researching exactly how their culture was, language will play a big role, because langauge is a part of culture, yet can sometimes influence.
Can anyone help me list as many Cantonese colloquial phrases and/or grammar exceptions that're present in Cantonese, compared to other Chinese dialects?

[ppk]

nope, the fact is, there was another group of people living in the present canton area. after china taken over canton since qin dynasty, there was a change in population content. people from central china and the locals married to give us wad we know as cantonese. they are 'chinese' in terms of nationality cos since the day they were born they are under chinese ruling. in terms of race, they are the mix-blooded offsprings of chinese and baiyue. the original race either stayed with the chinese conquerers and went under chinese ruling, or moved southwards to present vietnam.

[ppk]

if u are talking about the aborigins in canton area, they used to live there but they no longer exist. maybe they are the forefathers of modern vietnamese or cambodian. but this is different from, for example, india or hong kong as british colonies. in india or hong kong previously, u can say that all indians and hong kongers are british subjects, but by race they are indians and chinese originally, they are not europeans. in canton, however, the locals and foreigners had merged to form a totally new group of people, the cantonese, under chinese ruling. it was not china ruling over a group of foreign race and called them chinese. that is to say, there will only be people of bach viet(baiyue), and no cantonese at all if qin china had not conquered canton area. the cantonese were chinese oringinally, but not the aborigins that were once living in canton area.

[Sum Won]

You can't basically say because the Cantonese culture was wiped out by the Chinese culture, that the descendants of this mixed race is necessarily "just Chinese". Because, "blood-wise" (excuse me for not using the correct term, if there is one), we have both Chinese and Cantonese blood in us. So if we have both bloods, why only promote one culture, instead of two?

[ppk]

u still havent got the point. there is NO cantonese before qin dynasty. there is only bach viet. if u want to consider the blood factor, cantonese have chinese and bach viet blood since the beginning. in ancient china the race is decided by the paternal side, since qin sent 500 000 troops to bach viet and left them there to intermarry the lacals, i can say that they are chinese. besides, after so many yrs, the bach viet blood should be, by right, diminished to a very low level cos cantonese probably married more to chinese than to viets. if u want to talk about culture, the cantonese culture is similiar to the other parts of china. i can safely say that they used the same writings, and wore the same costumes, and follow the same traditions, and was ruled by the chinese govt since 2000yrs ago. wad else u need to prove that they are chinese? anyway in ancient times the ppl being conquered got no say in politics regarding their identity. maybe u can say that the scots are british but u dun say all british are scots.

again i say, there were other tribes living in canton area. by race and tradition they should be non chinese.(thou chinese mythology says they are oso the descendants of huangdi, cos some of huangdi's son had migrated ther with their people. if u wanna be really really sure i can tell u that archaeology findings proved that the ancient cultures in bach viet showed similar traits as southern china cultures, so they may be from the same ancestors. but i'll take them as non chinese for now). but after qin conquered that place the cantonese appeared and they are chinese descendants. the bach viet culture was almost wipe out, not the cantonese culture. the cantonese culture is similar to chinese.