tī, tiàm(-tī), toà(-tī)...

[Abun]

Ta̍k-ke hó,

I hope you don’t mind me bothering you with a grammar question again? As far as I got it, while in Mandarin there is only one preposition for “at (a certain place/time)” (namely zài 在), Hokkien possesses three basic ones: tī (佇), tiàm (踮) and toà (蹛), as well as the occasional tsāi (在) which I assume is Mandarin influence in the majority of cases. Plus, tiàm and toà often seem to occur in conjunction with tī (actually I’m not sure if I ever heard toà without a tī, except in the sense of “stay/live”). So excluding the variations where tī is exchanged for tsāi, there are the following variations:

tī
tiàm
tiàm-tī
toà (?)
toà-tī

However, I still fail to see the subtle differences between those. I’m aware that toà can mean “stay”, but I would regard this function rather as a full verb which usually isn’t followed by another verbal syntagma. Or does the use of toà as a preposition also indicate the place where you stay? And what about tiàm?
For example, how would you define the differences between the five alternatives in the following sentences (or maybe some of the alternatives don’t fit at all?):

Lí (tī/tiàm(-tī)/toà(-tī)) tó? (你（佇/踮(佇)/蹛(佇)）佗？)
Goá (tī/tiàm(-tī)/toà(-tī)) tsia tán lí. (我（佇/踮(佇)/蹛(佇)）遮等你。)
I (tī/tiàm(-tī)/toà(-tī)) pâng-keng-lāi hioh-khùn leh. (伊（佇/踮(佇)/蹛(佇)）房間內歇睏咧。)

I hope you forgive me my ignorance of such basic things on account of my lack of experience^^’

[amhoanna]

Excellent question. I still don't get the differences completely. Fortunately, it doesn't hamper communication. I'll be curious to see what the natives say when they come around here.

The alternate forms are:

A. tǐ‧ (tī in Amoy/TW convention)
B. tòa
C. tiàm
D. tiàmtǐ‧
E. cǎi
F. cǎitǐ‧
G. tiàmcǎi

When in doubt, use A. It's almost always appropriate.

As a verb, it means TO BE PRESENT (SOMEWHERE WHERE ONE COULD BE EXPECTED TO BE). Maybe regularly. Not sure.

As a grammatical function word, B is used at a much lower frequency than A, but it's still common. My feeling (語感 gí‧kám) is that it's only used where an action verb is involved, e.g. "tàn tòa cit ūi".

As a verb, B is used all the time, obviously, at least in TW, to mean TO LIVE (SOMEWHERE) or TO WORK (SOMEWHERE). "Tòa tǐ‧" just means TO LIVE AT (SOMEPLACE). In this combination, "tòa" is purely a verb. As a verb, B doesn't even require A to express the concept of living AT someplace... But U will hear A added on probably more often than not. I think it removes the ambiguity: it lets us know that "tòa" is not being used as a preposition.

My feeling as to C is that it involves an "active staying", if that makes sense. "Tiàm cia tán", yes, b/c the person "actively stayed" in one spot to wait, instead of roaming all over or going home. But I also see it used where there is no "active staying". Maybe the natives can shed some light.

My feeling as to D is that it's really verb + preposition. Again, not sure. The nature of the verb makes it less obvious.

E and F are uncommon. G is very rare.

E is not a Mandarism, but rather a Literary Sinicism. The Vietnamese cognate tại is used exactly the same way, and in fact much more frequently than in Hoklo.

F may be a native word, but it only seems to come up in settings where everyone's mental hard drive is running in Mandarin, such as in academic settings in Taiwan.

Lastly, G is like a Literary Hoklo version of D. I would be surprised to hear it in any setting besides poetry or lyrics. It would be rare even there.

[amhoanna]

On second thought, D is probably not a preposition at all. I don't think U could use it with a verb, e.g. *khû tiàmtǐ‧ cia. That sounds real weird to me.

[Abun]

Hello amhoanna,

this pretty much assures me in my feeling that tī is somewhat neutral, whereas tiàm and tòa are usually a bit more stressed, laying the focus more on the local adverb.
So your feeling is basically that tiàm is used with verbs of (deliberate) non-movement and toà rather indicates a movement (like your example, "tàn tòa chit ūi" (throw at this place) or maybe also "khǹg tòa chia" (put [it] here")? If so, do you also feel so if the tòa-syntagma is in front of the verb. Because at least my feeling tells me to put these "directional" phrases behind the verb. If I want to move it to the front, I feel like I have to add a complement to the verb: "tòa chit ūi khǹg--lo̍h-khì", and in this sentence means that the subject is at "this place", not that the object is put there (hard to express that difference in English... but in effect the meaning would be "put [it] down while being located at this place" in contrast to "put [it] at this place").
Sorry for the clumsy and confusing way of phrasing my question, but my point is, is the use of tòa connected to the verb involving a movement (regardless if it's a movement of the subject or the object), or does it infer a movement on the part of referring to (in this case "tòa chit ūi khǹg--lo̍h-khì" would at least be awkward if not downright wrong, unless the subject is putting something down while running past "chit ūi" )

And btw, the inverted circumflex in your transcription indicates 6th Tone, am I getting that right? In this case I'm surprised that chāi is originally 6th tone. Since TWese doesn't distinguish it, I use the only method I can think of to check whether a syllable might be 6th tone: Check if a 7th tone syllable is 上聲 (i.e. 3rd tone) in Mandarin. 在 is 4th tone (去聲) in Mandarin, so I never questioned the assumption that it originally was 7th tone (same goes for tī btw, if the MoE character is pún-jī and that might be questionable), but after all, my method of checking is probably everything but perfect
I also didn't know that tī originally has the back vowel since I've never heard anybody say tū, but it wouldn't be the first instance of the pronounciation of a certain word in one variant getting adopted in another variant (cf. jōa "how much" (is 偌 the pún-jī? at first glance it fits phonetically), which according to my information most TWese pronounce as gōa nowadays), so maybe Chiangchiu tī just happened to become more popular in TW than tū.

[AndrewAndrew]

Ti seems to behave more like the preposition 'at' whereas 'toa' is more like a verb.

I ti hit-peng - he is there
I toa hit-peng - he is there; he is staying/waiting/resting there

With other verbs, toa is more appropriate if the action is protracted:

I ti goa-khau puah-to - he fell outside

cf.

I toa hit-peng tan - he waited there
I toa hit-peng hau - she sat/stood there crying

Ti can be used for inanimate objects, whereas toa can't

I e tiam ti ban-san e tui-bin - his shop is opposite the market

Ti can be used after the verb:

I gia hit-pun chEh hE ti toh-teng - he put that book on the table

Not sure about the difference between toa and toa-ti, except toa-ti sounds better if there is no other verb.

I toa-ti Pak-Hai - he lives in Butterworth

[Abun]

Hey Andrew,

so your feeling is that

With other verbs, toa is more appropriate if the action is protracted:

I ti goa-khau puah-to - he fell outside

cf.

I toa hit-peng tan - he waited there
I toa hit-peng hau - she sat/stood there crying

So according to your feeling tòa indicates some sort of extended lingering? That's interesting because at first glance it contradicts the aspect of action that amhoanna mentioned. But maybe the reason for tòa being used in his action sentences was not the action verb but rather the fact that these action verbs were verbs which result in an object/a person staying at a place for an extended time? However that brings us back to the difference from tiàm, except:

Ti can be used for inanimate objects, whereas toa can't

I e tiam ti ban-san e tui-bin - his shop is opposite the market

Judging by your example I presume you mean tiàm here? That's an interesting point, since in that case, "khǹg tòa chia" and "tàn tòa chia" would probably be awkward, as in these phrases tòa most probably refers to an object.

Maybe the verbal meanings of tiàm and tòa help us getting to more subtle differences? tòa means "to stay, to live, to work at some place" (which would fit your feeling of the extended amount of time). tiàm according to the MoE dict also means "to stay, to pass the night" (居住、過夜), that sounds pretty much like the same as tòa (actually they used exactly the same words for translating it, apart from the "work"(任職) part with tòa that tiàm lacks)...

[amhoanna]

aBun,

I re-asked your question somewhere on Facebook. Here are the relevant answers, beginning with my question.


請教逐个，閩南語「佇」、「tòa」佮「tiàm」有 siáⁿ 爭差？佇 lín 厝个話，三句咁攏有人講？


[一个台北人：] 愛看款,攏會使交替使用,佇,較單一,tòa佮tiàm除了有佇的意思以外,閣有別個意思


我聽 [XXX] 敢若攏是講「tòa」，毋知影北馬敢是攏按呢講？


暗番仔：我个語感佮 YYY 仝；ah nā 我个語感，「tòa」有 teh tín 動、teh 動作个感斍；「tiàm」有超持釘佇一个所在个感斍。毋知 ánleⁿ 講有準 ‧無。


阮兜[踮佇]彰化庄跤，厝裡[tuà]三個人。


[一个屏東人：] 阮攏有講呢... 踮阮讀tam3 ... tua3 tam3 會使用在"命令語氣" 作動詞用... 比如 老母叫囡仔 tua3/tam3遮莫動... 但是"佇" 就干焦介詞用法爾爾


若是做介詞用兮時陣... 三個意義攏無啥差別


北馬優勢腔有講"tuà"佮"tǐ", tà'pí 我暫時無聽過儂講"tiàm"...


徛踮遮: 站在這


tiàm 有停留兮意思


[一个新竹人：] 我攏共“踮"念做"tam3".


[一个漳州人：] 我习惯拢是用蹛

[amhoanna]

So, my conclusion is, don't read too much into the difference btw the three. I may have read too much into it myself.

"Tiàm" seems to be absent from PngHkn and poss. the region of Ciangciu.

There are native speakers who feel that there is no difference btw the three.

U'll have to find your own ways to use these words. My natural inclination is to always use 佇. I have to remind myself to use toà and tiàm where it seems OK to me.

the inverted circumflex in your transcription indicates 6th Tone, am I getting that right?

Yes. Actually, I prefer to use the tilde, e.g. cãi. But then I have to switch into Vietnamese input. That's a pain. The inverted circumflex for T6 is probably a borrowing from Mandarin Hanyu Pinyin via Teochew. In the last few decades, the Teochew scholarship has switched to using this inverted circumflex for T6, poss. even when they use POJ 白話字. That's probably a Mandarism, and not to be condoned. They just felt it was easier to use a symbol already used in Hanyu Pinyin. What bull. I've never seen this ugly Soviet symbol in pre-PRC Teochew texts. The old texts used the tilde.

Then, for some reason, both the TW MOE and FHL went and built the inverted retroflex for T6 into their input systems. Keep in mind the T6 symbol is basically unused by their entire target market, which is TWese.

In this case I'm surprised that chāi is originally 6th tone. Since TWese doesn't distinguish it, I use the only method I can think of to check whether a syllable might be 6th tone: Check if a 7th tone syllable is 上聲 (i.e. 3rd tone) in Mandarin. 在 is 4th tone (去聲) in Mandarin

Your method is good, as far as it goes, but it only goes so far.

T6 does strange things. Teochew uses T6 a lot more than Coanciu. A lot of elements are T7 in Coanciu, but T6 in Teochew. Vietnamese basically also has the T6/T7 split, and it does help me guess for Hoklo, but a lot of times it just doesn't line up. 在 in VNese is tại; the "dot under" tone usually corresponds to Coanciu T7. The only method I rely on to check if a syllable is T6 is:
http://alt.reasoning.cs.ucla.edu/jinbo/dzl/lookup.php

if the MoE character is pún-jī and that might be questionable

It does seem to be the punji. I'm under the impression that it's a neo-punji: not used traditionally (in stage scripts, etc.), but "discovered" by linguists in the 20th century. 綴 is the same way. (Note that most such "discoveries" are spurious, but this one is real as far as I know.)

jōa "how much" (is 偌 the pún-jī? at first glance it fits phonetically)

Almost surely not.

A recent blog article on this:
http://blog.xuite.net/getting.rich/hopefully/81306487

I'm not sure if I thought of this myself or not, but ... I think joã is an elision of two syllables, poss. 若 jio̍k + 何 ôa.

o maybe Chiangchiu tī just happened to become more popular in TW than tū

U're saying that there's an element of chance to it all. I definitely agree.

[AndrewAndrew]

Yes, we don't use tiam in this way.

I think there definitely is a difference between toa and ti, put simply, I would say that 'ti' functions more like the preposition 'at', whereas 'toa' is more like a verb that means 'to stay'.

[Ah-bin]

Somewhere I heard that chāi 在 is used in Penang with a particular meaning. I think I have it in my dictionary notes at home, but I can't find it at the moment. Does it mean lethargic, or steady, or both? Could anyone please provide me with an example sentence?

By T6 you mean 陽上?