First of all, I'd like to thank all of you for participating in this forum.
Now, for the arguements...
Let me reiterate: "I am not arguing that Cantonese came from Japanese. I'm merely stating that there might be a possibility of kinship between Japanese and Cantonese."
If the "Hai-Hai" arguement doesn't work, then how about the Cantonese "wa" (written commonly as "to say", in many HK films) and "wa/ga" (usually translated as a "verbal colon"). If we follow the Japanese "wa", and apply it to the Cantonese "Ngaam wa" ("Just now") -- often used as a replacement for "ngaam ngaam") and "Jeng wa" ("Just now"), it would make perfect sense, that Japanese and Cantonese have a connection. Or how about the question "Me wa?"? People usually use it towards asking someone for clarification for what was said previously, however, "wa" was also used in questions in general for a while. The latter use fell out of way, when the clarification use, was overridden with the joke "Gwong Dung wa ah!".
Correct, Cantonese is closest to the Ancient Chinese language. However, you forget that there are still some Cantonese colloquial words/phrases that are still used today.
Now, on the case of Chinese migration towards the Cantonese regions: Yeah, I admit it happened. But does the settling and assimilation justify the killing of a culture? According to the UN, it doesn't. Sure, the white colonists did the same thing to the Native-Americans, but it was still wrong.
Sure, the Cantonese now have Chinese blood in them. However, does that necessarily mean we should stick with the Chinese culture blindly, and not do our part to revive, or at least examine the indigenous Cantonese culture?
Now on issues of "Cantonese Independance". Now, if we look at the Koreans, sure they have Chinese blood, but they also have their own independance. Look at Vietnam, they were taken over by the Chinese for several thousands of years, and they have their own independance! OK, we have Chinese blood, and indigenous blood mixed alongside, as do the Koreans and Vietnamese. So why is it they get their independance and we don't?
Cantonese originally not Chinese???
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
Hi,
This is an interesting topic & definately the longest one on the message board. I know Vietnamese history and that the Vietnames people are actually a branch of MonKhmer people that decided to live somewhere that is now in Southern China. I think that they were forced south by the Chinese at some point in history. History between China & Vietnam is basically a lot like this: Vietnam forms its kingdom, China conquers it for a thousand years or so, Vietnam fights out the Chinese and is independant for a bit, China conquers it again and the cycle continues until France decides to have a turn ruling the country. Because Vietnam had set up its own kingdom and culture it had itself a national identity which still existed when Vietnam politically didn't. From what I've read here it seems the original Cantonese people were an assortment of little tribes inhabiting land China wanted and after a few genrations of Chinese rule they probably began to feel Chinese while the Chinese people moving to live there definately would have felt Chinese. Vietnamese has received much Chinese influence during occupation -- Vietnamese people used Chinese writing; the major religions of Vietnam were gained through China; just as English borrows words from Latin & Greek, Vietnamese seems to have at some point in time borrowed the entire Chinese language, some words more than once; a lot of culture & festivals in Vietnam are form China -- but the Vietnamese people stuck to some of the Vietnamese things. That is why I think Vietnamese people got their own country in the end & the Cantonese didn't. All I know about Korea is that its people are originally the same as the Japanese and that it probably also had its own natioanl identity despite Chinese assimilation.
PS I'm new to this message board and don't know if I should introduce myself here.
This is an interesting topic & definately the longest one on the message board. I know Vietnamese history and that the Vietnames people are actually a branch of MonKhmer people that decided to live somewhere that is now in Southern China. I think that they were forced south by the Chinese at some point in history. History between China & Vietnam is basically a lot like this: Vietnam forms its kingdom, China conquers it for a thousand years or so, Vietnam fights out the Chinese and is independant for a bit, China conquers it again and the cycle continues until France decides to have a turn ruling the country. Because Vietnam had set up its own kingdom and culture it had itself a national identity which still existed when Vietnam politically didn't. From what I've read here it seems the original Cantonese people were an assortment of little tribes inhabiting land China wanted and after a few genrations of Chinese rule they probably began to feel Chinese while the Chinese people moving to live there definately would have felt Chinese. Vietnamese has received much Chinese influence during occupation -- Vietnamese people used Chinese writing; the major religions of Vietnam were gained through China; just as English borrows words from Latin & Greek, Vietnamese seems to have at some point in time borrowed the entire Chinese language, some words more than once; a lot of culture & festivals in Vietnam are form China -- but the Vietnamese people stuck to some of the Vietnamese things. That is why I think Vietnamese people got their own country in the end & the Cantonese didn't. All I know about Korea is that its people are originally the same as the Japanese and that it probably also had its own natioanl identity despite Chinese assimilation.
PS I'm new to this message board and don't know if I should introduce myself here.
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Lisa C
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
Japanese language structure is actually similar to Turkish language structure. While Japanese language has many borrowed words from Chinese, this wouldn't be unusual with influence China had on the surrounding countries. Many of the kanji used by Japan relate to the older usages that have fallen out "popularity" in China due to forced Mandarin standardization. Since Cantonese still maintains some of the older usages it would make sense that there is some similarity.
Japan borrowed numbers, food, religion etc. from China at one time or another. I do see what you mean by words in Cantonese and Japanese having similarities but I think it's more the influence of trade etc. on Japan. Although most of them wouldn't admit getting any cultural influence from China.
ex. shoyu - soy sauce
Japan borrowed numbers, food, religion etc. from China at one time or another. I do see what you mean by words in Cantonese and Japanese having similarities but I think it's more the influence of trade etc. on Japan. Although most of them wouldn't admit getting any cultural influence from China.
ex. shoyu - soy sauce
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Lisa C
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
Well, somehow I posted by mistake. (con't) roku - six, sennian - new year, etc.
I noticed in Vietnamese that many of the food items sound very similar to Cantonese as well. I think if Japanese were really related to Chinese they would have had last names much earlier than the 19th century.
I noticed in Vietnamese that many of the food items sound very similar to Cantonese as well. I think if Japanese were really related to Chinese they would have had last names much earlier than the 19th century.
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Sum Won
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
Correct, there was trade conducted between Japan and Ancient China. However, that still doesn't rule out the possibility that Cantonese and Japanese were related.
Now, on the issue of whether or not the Chinese were related to the Japanese, and the surname issue: There were Japanese surnames, in certain castes of society. The only people who didn't have any surnames, were most of the common people. If any of you remember the pattern of how evrey assimilating country takes over other countries, they [the conquerers] always cast themselves in high positions, and put the conquered people in low positions. So, when the Chinese got to Japan, they brought over last names, and through time, they've changed to something completely than before.
If this statement doesn't follow, then let's try the following: What reason would the farmers need last names for? They just farm... Unlike the people in the warrior class, or the politicians, they don't need to make themselves known. First names alone would do in a village, which for the most part, was reclusive (as most farmlands were, until their country's industrialization period came).
Now, as to the reason why VietNamese food (if you mean, dishes, or ingredients used in preparing them) sounds similar to Chinese, is possibly from the fact that the VietNamese wanted to learn more about Chinese culture, and went to or even through the Cantonese areas, so there was an exchange in either language, or dishes of food. Or, it was because of the mass number of Cantonese people alongside with many other southern Chinese moving to VietNam for the following reasons:
1. Ventured in VietNam to try to make a living or gain some money (early 20th century, when almost everyone [as in the peasants] was poor)
2. Moved to VietNam to avoid Japanese atrocities (The Japanese treated VietNam fairly well, compared to the people in China. Aside from the standard "Pre-Geneva" standards of beating people, no rape cases are heard. Plus, the French Viche government just handed it over to Japan, so there was no need for hostile forces.)
3. Moved to VietNam to avoid Communism (usually for poor people who couldn't afford to move to Macau or Hong Kong, but were rich enough to flee all the way to what was known as "Southern VietNam")
Now, on the issue of whether or not the Chinese were related to the Japanese, and the surname issue: There were Japanese surnames, in certain castes of society. The only people who didn't have any surnames, were most of the common people. If any of you remember the pattern of how evrey assimilating country takes over other countries, they [the conquerers] always cast themselves in high positions, and put the conquered people in low positions. So, when the Chinese got to Japan, they brought over last names, and through time, they've changed to something completely than before.
If this statement doesn't follow, then let's try the following: What reason would the farmers need last names for? They just farm... Unlike the people in the warrior class, or the politicians, they don't need to make themselves known. First names alone would do in a village, which for the most part, was reclusive (as most farmlands were, until their country's industrialization period came).
Now, as to the reason why VietNamese food (if you mean, dishes, or ingredients used in preparing them) sounds similar to Chinese, is possibly from the fact that the VietNamese wanted to learn more about Chinese culture, and went to or even through the Cantonese areas, so there was an exchange in either language, or dishes of food. Or, it was because of the mass number of Cantonese people alongside with many other southern Chinese moving to VietNam for the following reasons:
1. Ventured in VietNam to try to make a living or gain some money (early 20th century, when almost everyone [as in the peasants] was poor)
2. Moved to VietNam to avoid Japanese atrocities (The Japanese treated VietNam fairly well, compared to the people in China. Aside from the standard "Pre-Geneva" standards of beating people, no rape cases are heard. Plus, the French Viche government just handed it over to Japan, so there was no need for hostile forces.)
3. Moved to VietNam to avoid Communism (usually for poor people who couldn't afford to move to Macau or Hong Kong, but were rich enough to flee all the way to what was known as "Southern VietNam")
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
I think the Vietnamese names thing is probably because of China's influence on Vietnamese food & language when China ruled Vietnam (giving Vietnamese foodwords) and the way Chinese loanwords in Vietnamese are similar to Cantonese words.
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Lisa C
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
You know, this really goes back to Qin Shi Huangdi then. According to legend, he was looking for the herb of eternal youth and sent a 100 handsome men and 100 beautiful women on the search and were instructed not to come back without it. They supposedly settled in Japan.
I don't think it's as much a Cantonese influence as Chinese influence. Hakka people also say "hai" for the affirmative. Instead of comparing modern day dialects the study should be on old Chinese language influence. You might also check out Dylan Sung's site which I believe gives the changes in the b/p, h/f and other consonant changes among Chinese, Korean, and Japanese.
I don't think it's as much a Cantonese influence as Chinese influence. Hakka people also say "hai" for the affirmative. Instead of comparing modern day dialects the study should be on old Chinese language influence. You might also check out Dylan Sung's site which I believe gives the changes in the b/p, h/f and other consonant changes among Chinese, Korean, and Japanese.
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Sum Won
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
Actually, there has been some archeaological evidence, that there could have been a possibility that the Chinese in Japan had went back and forth between China and Japan, and even conducted some trade. Yes, I am aware of the Chinese-Japanese relation. However, I still think there is a possibility between the Japanese and Cantonese. If we were to prove a Cantonese-Japanese ethnic relation, there would need to be archaelogical evidence; I am aware of that. Nonetheless, even if it can't be proven, there is still no doubt in my mind that the Cantonese were originally not Chinese.
P.S. The Hakkas don't say "hai" also, they say "heh".
P.P.S. Can you provide the link to Dylan Sung's site on the Japanese "b/p-h/f" issue?
P.S. The Hakkas don't say "hai" also, they say "heh".
P.P.S. Can you provide the link to Dylan Sung's site on the Japanese "b/p-h/f" issue?
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kp
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
If it is true that Cantonese is closest to ancient Chinese, then the Cantonese got @ssed out. If their language is closest to ancient Chinese, than they must be the most closely related to the original Chinese. But the China of today, or at least the people who run the country mostly speak Mandarin.
However, from just pure logic, that does not make sense to me.
-Ancient maps of China do not include the areas where Cantonese of today live. But many in the forum claim that the Cantonese migrated from China into those areas.
-So what happend to the Cantonese that did not migrate? Did they just slowly start to look like the northerners and lose their own language?
Also, if Cantonese is closest to the ancient language, then those speakers would surely outnumber those Mandarin-sounding speakers and the assimilation would not have taken place.
So, I'm wondering.......who are the ones arguing that Cantonese is closest to ancient Chinese? Is it just the Cantonese that say that? Or will the Mandarins claim their own as the most similar?
China should just be renamed to.............
The United Provinces of Orientals Taken Over by the Jung Guo
However, from just pure logic, that does not make sense to me.
-Ancient maps of China do not include the areas where Cantonese of today live. But many in the forum claim that the Cantonese migrated from China into those areas.
-So what happend to the Cantonese that did not migrate? Did they just slowly start to look like the northerners and lose their own language?
Also, if Cantonese is closest to the ancient language, then those speakers would surely outnumber those Mandarin-sounding speakers and the assimilation would not have taken place.
So, I'm wondering.......who are the ones arguing that Cantonese is closest to ancient Chinese? Is it just the Cantonese that say that? Or will the Mandarins claim their own as the most similar?
China should just be renamed to.............
The United Provinces of Orientals Taken Over by the Jung Guo
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Terence Lee
Re: Cantonese originally not Chinese???
I don’t know much about Japanese and Vietnamese and thus I cannot see if the language similarities with Cantonese have made the author here so persistent to say Cantonese not originally Chinese. Also, I do not see how ‘not original’ should be drawn to make Cantonese independence.
All I can see is that the author has misunderstood assimilation as an elimination of other races and their native culture. Someone here has taken the outlook features to indicate the differences between northern Chinese and Cantonese. I also don’t see if this is good enough for their statement that Cantonese not Chinese.
Some of the Chinese may look a bit different from one another, but not a clear cut between south and north. I had been working in various northern provinces for many years, but I did not find that differences patent on geographical districts, except those Chinese Caucasians in Xinjiang. I believe that those who think northern people look different from Cantonese have made their assertion on what they have sighted about the movie(TV) stars, who though look different but from other Chinese not limited from Cantonese. Superficial differences can be explained by immigrants having flown to China from various races during the long history including from invaders.
If Chinese is Han at the original author’s sense, the Han race is virtually not a pure race and it is a combination of many different clans and races even at time it was firstly named as a race. Han race grew bigger and bigger by receiving other minor races or small nations as part of it. The receiving is not a policy instituted by Han Government but an automatic practical means of fusing among people. Huns, a race of the main invaders from north at Han’s time, were once defeated and eventually broke up. Some of this race were driven away and intermittently moved to Europe, and had once settled in Hungary before being assimilated by other European races. Some of them, (south Huns) requested Han Government for receiving them as Han subjects. Permission was then granted and they became part of Han race. Since then, there was no Hun race around Han Empire but Han race grew bigger with Huns assimilation taking place.
Wind is blowing from high pressure to low pressure zone. People with poor living standard flow to zones of higher standard. When there was not the term of nationalism in the native tribes of South China 2200 years ago, those natives having been conquered would love to live as citizens under Canton Government (not use the historical term), due to higher living standard, better technology and higher culture. Those not being conquered living around the Han cultural sphere would like to take advantage from Han. Then, contacting with Han, learning from Han and deliberately fusing to Han took place from time to time. This also explained why most Hong Kong people (though despicable) wanted to live under British Governing and dislike the return to China in 1997 (from high to low) and why so many Chinese like to immigrate to US and other rich European countries even through illegal means. Simply, this is an act of taking benefit.
Conquer means no eliminating of culture but means fusing of culture or even in certain circumstances upgrading culture. Native people naturally flowing to Han sphere were also an act of taking benefit. Their own culture was not forced to abandon but they chose better things. This also explains why in history conquerors from north (nomads of lower culture) had finally been assimilated by Han culture.
Some native culture worthy to be inherited still passes generations to generations and sometimes influence that of Han. Just look at the language (part of culture, not all), examples are found: tea (originally flourished in Yunnan and South China, they were called da or tu in some minor races of Yunnan, the pre-Qin Chinese put character荼(tou4) to name it. At first, only the Southern races and people who drank tea. But under the south influence, the Northen Chinese drunk it and made it very popular since the prosperity of Buddhism in Tang, Sound change in Tang had made tea sound as 茶(caa4), but Fujianian still calls it as ‘de1’. English took from Fujianian to call ‘de1’ as tea. Now, tea is from South to North and to the world. Paddy/rice experienced the similar way of tea from south to north. Water chestnut, the name in common language is荸薺(bi2qi) , in Cantonese, it is called maa5 tai5(馬蹄) which is a substratum existing in southern races and has never been killed. Shaddock in mandarin is called 柚子(you4zi), which in Zhuang race, is called 波碌(po1 luk1) and in Cantonese called 碌柚(luk1jau2), it is very obvious that Cantonese has combined the shaddock’s name in Mandarin with that of Zhuang race. It reflects the fusing of culture in a lateral view. Apart from languages, many traditions and customs of the Southern minor races are left and inherited so long as the natives themselves want them to be. (see Dialects and Chinese Culture by Zhou Zhen Peng)
Qin founded Nanhai (Canton, according to the o. author) in the natives’ land. Then, central plain migrants came to the new territory settling down together with those remained natives. According to the natural act of flowing from low to high culture, it is believed that many people of the surrounding tribes were willing to fuse into the Han cultural sphere attempting to adopt their culture, share their technology and take everything being deemed good. Adopting other’s culture is a way of assimilation and thus, not necessarily blood -mixing, the people living in Nanhai and those having adopted Nanhai culture were called Nanhaiese. When Nanhai was finally renamed to be Canton, all the people there are then called Cantonese. The same applies to those Arabian descendants in Guangzhou. Nowadays, though they believed in Islam, they call themselves Cantonese and Chinese. Also, like Indian descendants in Hong Kong, they call themselves Hong Kong people. An additional example is given here, Zheng He 鄭和(San Boa Eunuch) was from Hui race回族, though he was not Han but he was a Chinese representing Ming government carrying Han culture to launch the well-known oversea expedition some 600 years ago.
Hui is a race but still a part of Chinese. Cantonese is not a race at all. Cantonese are just residents of a place which is named Canton. Is that simple? I just don’t understand why there is someone who seems to be so dump to comprehend the term using to call Cantonese. Maybe they assert Cantonese are equal to the natives while reluctant to admit the outnumbered migrants to be the main Canton population. Maybe they believe that different speaking language (dialects) in Canton is the outcome of migrants having been assimilated by natives, but they neglect to consider the never-ending change of sound.
More possible is that they think they are from pure native and now want to get rid of migrants and migrants’ descendents in order to claim back their land and to avenge their ancestor’s humiliation of being conquered by Han culture. If so, I think the native Americans should at once launch a rebel or revolution to claim independence because their hostility against the white is still very fresh (just several hundred years).
It is totally not to blame the Han culture dominates the south China while on the contrary, the natives should thank for bringing to them higher culture and better living. Some present minor races in Yunnan are admiring that the Han’s giving them characters so that their history can be recorded and their culture can be inherited.
Indeed, I do not see how good and how right should an independence be called for. Does the independence serve to restore our original culture (native’s culture)? Then, it is easy, we simply don’t write and speak Chinese but what characters should we take to record our history and culture? And, what kind of speaking language we should use for communication, use that from Dai, from Shen, from Li, from Zhuang, from Men or from Taishan; or simply return to tribal living to lessen communication? We Cantonese have already taken benefit of the unity of Chinese not just writing and language, and great honor of her civilization. We are certainly feed and brought up by Chinese culture even if we are really from pure native. And at this point, we are Chinese without doubt! Why independent? Because China is ruled by communist? Because her people live in poverty? Because Canton is richer and thus not to be shared out by other poor fellow-countrymen? This is totally a matter of already-gained benefit既得利益, and it is as despicable as those nationalist in Taiwan shouting for independence but forgetting who has given them both writing and speaking language for propaganda, and who’s given them the first wealth (mainland people’s fat ) to launch independence campaign. Consider that should we need to politicalize everything among and around China?
All I can see is that the author has misunderstood assimilation as an elimination of other races and their native culture. Someone here has taken the outlook features to indicate the differences between northern Chinese and Cantonese. I also don’t see if this is good enough for their statement that Cantonese not Chinese.
Some of the Chinese may look a bit different from one another, but not a clear cut between south and north. I had been working in various northern provinces for many years, but I did not find that differences patent on geographical districts, except those Chinese Caucasians in Xinjiang. I believe that those who think northern people look different from Cantonese have made their assertion on what they have sighted about the movie(TV) stars, who though look different but from other Chinese not limited from Cantonese. Superficial differences can be explained by immigrants having flown to China from various races during the long history including from invaders.
If Chinese is Han at the original author’s sense, the Han race is virtually not a pure race and it is a combination of many different clans and races even at time it was firstly named as a race. Han race grew bigger and bigger by receiving other minor races or small nations as part of it. The receiving is not a policy instituted by Han Government but an automatic practical means of fusing among people. Huns, a race of the main invaders from north at Han’s time, were once defeated and eventually broke up. Some of this race were driven away and intermittently moved to Europe, and had once settled in Hungary before being assimilated by other European races. Some of them, (south Huns) requested Han Government for receiving them as Han subjects. Permission was then granted and they became part of Han race. Since then, there was no Hun race around Han Empire but Han race grew bigger with Huns assimilation taking place.
Wind is blowing from high pressure to low pressure zone. People with poor living standard flow to zones of higher standard. When there was not the term of nationalism in the native tribes of South China 2200 years ago, those natives having been conquered would love to live as citizens under Canton Government (not use the historical term), due to higher living standard, better technology and higher culture. Those not being conquered living around the Han cultural sphere would like to take advantage from Han. Then, contacting with Han, learning from Han and deliberately fusing to Han took place from time to time. This also explained why most Hong Kong people (though despicable) wanted to live under British Governing and dislike the return to China in 1997 (from high to low) and why so many Chinese like to immigrate to US and other rich European countries even through illegal means. Simply, this is an act of taking benefit.
Conquer means no eliminating of culture but means fusing of culture or even in certain circumstances upgrading culture. Native people naturally flowing to Han sphere were also an act of taking benefit. Their own culture was not forced to abandon but they chose better things. This also explains why in history conquerors from north (nomads of lower culture) had finally been assimilated by Han culture.
Some native culture worthy to be inherited still passes generations to generations and sometimes influence that of Han. Just look at the language (part of culture, not all), examples are found: tea (originally flourished in Yunnan and South China, they were called da or tu in some minor races of Yunnan, the pre-Qin Chinese put character荼(tou4) to name it. At first, only the Southern races and people who drank tea. But under the south influence, the Northen Chinese drunk it and made it very popular since the prosperity of Buddhism in Tang, Sound change in Tang had made tea sound as 茶(caa4), but Fujianian still calls it as ‘de1’. English took from Fujianian to call ‘de1’ as tea. Now, tea is from South to North and to the world. Paddy/rice experienced the similar way of tea from south to north. Water chestnut, the name in common language is荸薺(bi2qi) , in Cantonese, it is called maa5 tai5(馬蹄) which is a substratum existing in southern races and has never been killed. Shaddock in mandarin is called 柚子(you4zi), which in Zhuang race, is called 波碌(po1 luk1) and in Cantonese called 碌柚(luk1jau2), it is very obvious that Cantonese has combined the shaddock’s name in Mandarin with that of Zhuang race. It reflects the fusing of culture in a lateral view. Apart from languages, many traditions and customs of the Southern minor races are left and inherited so long as the natives themselves want them to be. (see Dialects and Chinese Culture by Zhou Zhen Peng)
Qin founded Nanhai (Canton, according to the o. author) in the natives’ land. Then, central plain migrants came to the new territory settling down together with those remained natives. According to the natural act of flowing from low to high culture, it is believed that many people of the surrounding tribes were willing to fuse into the Han cultural sphere attempting to adopt their culture, share their technology and take everything being deemed good. Adopting other’s culture is a way of assimilation and thus, not necessarily blood -mixing, the people living in Nanhai and those having adopted Nanhai culture were called Nanhaiese. When Nanhai was finally renamed to be Canton, all the people there are then called Cantonese. The same applies to those Arabian descendants in Guangzhou. Nowadays, though they believed in Islam, they call themselves Cantonese and Chinese. Also, like Indian descendants in Hong Kong, they call themselves Hong Kong people. An additional example is given here, Zheng He 鄭和(San Boa Eunuch) was from Hui race回族, though he was not Han but he was a Chinese representing Ming government carrying Han culture to launch the well-known oversea expedition some 600 years ago.
Hui is a race but still a part of Chinese. Cantonese is not a race at all. Cantonese are just residents of a place which is named Canton. Is that simple? I just don’t understand why there is someone who seems to be so dump to comprehend the term using to call Cantonese. Maybe they assert Cantonese are equal to the natives while reluctant to admit the outnumbered migrants to be the main Canton population. Maybe they believe that different speaking language (dialects) in Canton is the outcome of migrants having been assimilated by natives, but they neglect to consider the never-ending change of sound.
More possible is that they think they are from pure native and now want to get rid of migrants and migrants’ descendents in order to claim back their land and to avenge their ancestor’s humiliation of being conquered by Han culture. If so, I think the native Americans should at once launch a rebel or revolution to claim independence because their hostility against the white is still very fresh (just several hundred years).
It is totally not to blame the Han culture dominates the south China while on the contrary, the natives should thank for bringing to them higher culture and better living. Some present minor races in Yunnan are admiring that the Han’s giving them characters so that their history can be recorded and their culture can be inherited.
Indeed, I do not see how good and how right should an independence be called for. Does the independence serve to restore our original culture (native’s culture)? Then, it is easy, we simply don’t write and speak Chinese but what characters should we take to record our history and culture? And, what kind of speaking language we should use for communication, use that from Dai, from Shen, from Li, from Zhuang, from Men or from Taishan; or simply return to tribal living to lessen communication? We Cantonese have already taken benefit of the unity of Chinese not just writing and language, and great honor of her civilization. We are certainly feed and brought up by Chinese culture even if we are really from pure native. And at this point, we are Chinese without doubt! Why independent? Because China is ruled by communist? Because her people live in poverty? Because Canton is richer and thus not to be shared out by other poor fellow-countrymen? This is totally a matter of already-gained benefit既得利益, and it is as despicable as those nationalist in Taiwan shouting for independence but forgetting who has given them both writing and speaking language for propaganda, and who’s given them the first wealth (mainland people’s fat ) to launch independence campaign. Consider that should we need to politicalize everything among and around China?