Cantonese originally not Chinese???

[KHP]

so....most people here say Cantonese came from ancient Chinese language. What about the tonal differences? I believe Mandarin, as well as Korean and Japanese have about 4 or 5 tones? (feel free to correct me) While cantonese has 9 tones? What about most of the other "Chinese" dialects(Shanghai, chiu chow, etc.)? Are they more similar to Mandarin or Cantonese?

[KHP]

regarding Japanese names.........
Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese........all have single syllable names......but Japanese have surnames like Yamada, Tokugawa, Yamaguchi. How did this come about?

[joe]

I'm quite sure that both Japanese and Korean are non-tonal languages. The fact that Cantonese is closest(or the closest) to Ancient/Classical Chinese is because Cantonese's conversational vocabulary resembles vocabulary that exists in Classical Chinese whereas they no longer exist in other dialects. Here's some example:

eat - 吃(Mandarin) 食(Cantonese)
drink - 喝(Mandarin) 飲(Cantonese)
run - 跑(Mandarin) 走(Cantonese)
wings - 翅膀 (Mandarin) 翼(Cantonese)

etc, etc

Shanghainese probably resembles Mandarin more, because of its proximity to Beijing. I could be wrong. Chaozhou is related to Minnan(Fukienese, Taiwanese) which has roughly about 6 tones(depending on classficiation scheme) like Cantonese

[joe]

regarding Japanese names...

Korean and Vietnamese names like Chinese names are all one syllable because both Koreans and Vietnamese share the same last names as Chinese. Japanese have polysyllabic names because their language is polysyllabic and they did not borrow last names from Chinese. The commoners of Japan did not have last names until about 1870 when the Meiji regime ordered that commoners be allowed to take last names. All the commoners took names of the places that they came from which explains why most Japanese names describe a geographical location. Honda - 本田 Ben tian (Mandarin) original field (English)
Toyota - 豐田 Feng tian (Mandarin) abundant field (English)
Takebayashi - 武林 Wu lin (Mandarin) Martial Forest (English)
Other Japanese last names, which do not have a geographical reference are names of the nobles, bushi, or samurai that had last names before 1870 like kujo, takashi, genji, oda, etc.

[KHP]

joe....thanks for clearing up the Japanese part.

back to Cantonese........

Just to be sure........you are saying Cantonese is the closest dialect to Ancient Chinese?

I assumed that Korean and Japanese were tonal since.....because my ears tell me that they are very similar. That might just be me though.

Also, I heard that Koreans are descendents of an ancient Chinese tribe.....so I assumed that their language is similar. Most people will say that Japanese adn Korean is very similar to one another, my Korean GF even admits that. WIth those two connections, I assumed Korean adn Japanese were tonal as well, since their voices definitely don't have the range of Cantonese or other SEA languages.

[joe]

I am not positive that Cantonese is the closest dialect to Classical Chinese.
I am positive that Cantonese is a lot closer than Mandarin is.

About Korean and Japanese. These languages are somewhat related but both of them are non-tonal. They place emphasis(or lack of) on syllables. To be a tonal language is to say that a pronounced sound changes meaning if it's tone is changed.
Ex:

A word in Japanese, English, or any other non-tonal language would mean the same thing no matter any tone it is pronounced.

The word "See" no matter what tone it is pronounced in, will always mean to visually interpret something(unless you write it as Sea).

In Cantonese, the word "si" can mean have these meanings in these tones:

si1 poem
si2 history
si3 try
si4 time
si5 city
si6 event

Alternatively, in Mandarin

si1 silk
si2 ?(not sure)
si3 death
si4 four

among other meanings.

Hope this can be of help.

[joe]

in addition to the last post:


Korean and Japanese are languages that are linguistically unrelated to Chinese. Both languages are polysyllabic, meaning its vocabulary consists of words which are more than one syllable.

Chinese, like Vietnamese, Thai, etc. is a monosyllabic language. Each syllable represents a meaning (unless its a foreign word, or borrowed word)

Ex: Yama is Japanese for mountain, Ya and Ma are single syllables that don't mean anything. They only mean something when pronounced Ya-Ma

Shan or Saan is mountain in Mandarin/Cantonese, respectively. One syllable is enough to produce a meaning. How about words like Laohu(Tiger) or Fenghuang (Phoenix)? These are word groups, Lao in Laohu has a meaning of "Old" by itself, Huang in Fenghuang means Female Phoenix. Each syllable can generally stand alone in meaning.


As for Koreans being a descendent of an ancient Chinese tribe. This is totally up for discussion because of nationality issues. Koreans probably lived, at one time, in Northern China before they migrated to the Korean peninsula. One could then argue that Thai, Laos, and Vietnamese are descendants of ancient Chinese tribes since they did originally live in Southern China during ancient times. Is this valid? Make your own assumptions.

[KHP]

Thanks for the explanations joe, you are very knowledgable. If you dont mind me picking your brain some more......I know my Viet history well, but you said Thai and Laos are possibly descendents of Chinese tribes, or at least came from Southern China, as well. Thai and Laos have long surnames(Yothsackda, Philavong, etc.), unlike Viet who have their own version of Chinese names. Any idea where that comes from?

[joe]

I'm somewhat familiar with the Southeast Asian history so I'll try to answer your question.

To see why Thai's have such last names, you can take a look at this site:
http://www.apmforum.com/columns/thai4.htm
Interestingly, the long last names are directly influenced by Chinese since the great Thai King Chulalongkorn(he declared to the European colonial powers that Thailand is an independent kingdom) banned all foreign names, especially ethnic Chinese names in his country.

King Vajiravudh, the successor to King Chulalongkorn, reigned and introduced many aspects of modern Thai culture. One of these is the adoption of surnames in 1909 in part so that they could crush the Chinese nationalism and identity in Thailand by forcing everybody to have a Thai surname.

I am not sure about Laos surnames but I assume that they adopted surnames only in modern times, like Thai, Japanese, others.
You must understand that the concept of surnames or family names originated or began very early in China. Most other nations only referred to people by their given name. Look at much of the more ancient Europeans, they were all referred to by given name. None of the characters in the Bible, new or old had any surnames. Africans certainly had no surnames, Central Asians nomads, Mongolians, Huns were always referred to by only a given name. Only those that came into direct contact with China adopted the practice of surnames. China never politically controlled the areas now called Laos and Thailand so they never adopted the practice of having surnames. Korea and Vietnam however have been part of the Chinese empire very early on, before the birth of Christ. The adoption of Chinese surnames by all subjects of the empire would be urged by the government. Many Chinese from the more remote areas adopted surnames at the same time or maybe even after the Koreans and Vietnamese which can explain why there are some "newer" Chinese surnames that don't exist in Vietnam or Korea.

One might argue, how about the Tibetans, Uighurs, Mongolians, Manchus that don't have Chinese surnames? They were directly controlled politically by Chinese. The answer is: Although many of these groups have been a part of China they were not assimilated during Qin Dynasty or Han Dynasty. They've been integrated into the Empire more recently. During the chaotic period between 3kingdoms and Tang Dynasty (~190ad - 640ad) There were several Hunnic/nomadic dynasties/kingdoms in China that reigned. They called their dynasties Later Han to claim descendance from the Han emperors. They adopted the surnames of Liu and many subjects also adopted Liu or other Chinese surnames. During the collapse of the Sung, the Later Xia or Western Xia look the last name of Li. the surname bestowed upon them by the Tang emperors.(Tang emperors were named Li) After so many centuries, these originally Turkic/Hunnic/whatever people are indistinguishable from Chinese so many Uighurs, Mongolians, minorities may have adopted Chinese names from a long time ago but they differ slightly from the modern Chinese minorities...

[AOJMrLightninG]

Well, maybe most of you guys think that Mandarin is the closest to the Ancient Chinese. Surprisingly, Cantonese is closer. Mandarin has significantly tweaked the pronounciation, while Cantonese does less.

I know a bit Korean. Korean is quite close to the Ancient Chinese, thought they don't have "f" sound. They use "p" instead of "f". For example, the word, "Fei"-Fly, they say "pi".