The extra 2 tones maybe the "yap" tones. For example, fuk (prosperity)
fuk (lie down). If vietnamese has the k ending sound then it is the 7 and 8 tones similar to cantonese.
I am beginning to see a pattern here. All s in cantonese in translated to t in vietnamese.
For example. 10 is sap in cantonese - thap in vietnamese.
Vietnamese is sino-tibetan ?
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Dylan Sung
Re: Vietnamese is sino-tibetan ?
AlexNg, using Chinese tone categorisation to SV readings is interesting, yes, but in the end, SV only has six tones, and there are no other names in SV corresponding to the Ru tones that you find in Chinese syllables ending in -p, -t, or -k. Saying there are eight tones is clearly wrong. Besides, it is an artificial distinction.
Dyl.
Dyl.
-
Hoang Nhat
Re: Vietnamese is sino-tibetan ?
First of all, it looks like some of you guys trying to find the origin of Vietnamese language by doing comparison of Sino-Vietnamese and Chinese words. That's not the right way to go about. Take the numeral system for instance, the Vietnamese have their own system in addition to the Sino-Vietnamese and it goes like this:
một hai ba bốn nãm sáu bảy tám chín muời ...
We rarely use the sino-Vietnamese numerals in our daily speech except for "nhất" in "thứ nhất" (first) because it's funny to say "thứ một". They only appear in Sino-Vietnamese place names and titles such as Cuu Long (Nine-Dragon river), Hong Thap Tu (Red Cross), Nhi Thien Duong (Second Heaven, an medicated oil brand), etc.
Beside the numerals there are many other pure Vietnamese words that you would never find their cognates in Chinese. Talking about dialects, I just want to clarify that Vietnamese dialects or rather accents are mutally intelligible among their speakers, unlike dialects in Chinese.
And as you guys must have already known, the word order in Vietnamese is reversed compared to Chinese, just like the Chinese would say "white house" and the Vietnamese would say "house white".
That is true that Vietnamese has a lot of Chinese loanwords, but so do the Japanese and Korean languages and that does not make their languages Sino-Tibetan.
As for tones, Vietnamese does have tones just like Thai (Thai does not belong to Sino-Tibetan) and Chinese, but according to André-Georges Haudricourt, a well-known French linguist who published his findings about the origin of Vietnamese language in 1953, Vietnamese started out as a language without tones just like any other Mon-khmer languages, the tones only came about around the 6th century. He proved his theory by observing and comparing the tones of languages in the Vietic, also called Viet-Muong language group which is a very closely related group, and amongst them, some has 0 tones and some has 4 tones, 5 tones, or 6 tones, and just FYI, Muong is considered the ancient Vietnamese language. You can read about this in the following links:
http://www.anu.edu.au/~u9907217/languag ... /honda.pdf
http://www.csuchico.edu/~gt18/Papers/SEAPapers.htm
http://www.geocities.com/malves98/
Furthermore, before the Han's expansion into Southern China and Northern Vietnam, this area was mostly populated by people whose languages were Mon-khmer and Thai-Kadai and this could explain why there exist so many dialects in Southern China today. Only Vietnamese amongst a very few others was able to keep their own language and it did not turn into a Chinese dialect.
For all the reasons stated above, I believe Vietnamese is not part of the Sino-Tibetan language family but a language of Mon-khmer origin with influences from Chinese as we all know what the reason behind it is and from Thai due to the huge influx of Thai people into Northern Vietnam during the Mongol's invasion into south-western China during the 13th century.
một hai ba bốn nãm sáu bảy tám chín muời ...
We rarely use the sino-Vietnamese numerals in our daily speech except for "nhất" in "thứ nhất" (first) because it's funny to say "thứ một". They only appear in Sino-Vietnamese place names and titles such as Cuu Long (Nine-Dragon river), Hong Thap Tu (Red Cross), Nhi Thien Duong (Second Heaven, an medicated oil brand), etc.
Beside the numerals there are many other pure Vietnamese words that you would never find their cognates in Chinese. Talking about dialects, I just want to clarify that Vietnamese dialects or rather accents are mutally intelligible among their speakers, unlike dialects in Chinese.
And as you guys must have already known, the word order in Vietnamese is reversed compared to Chinese, just like the Chinese would say "white house" and the Vietnamese would say "house white".
That is true that Vietnamese has a lot of Chinese loanwords, but so do the Japanese and Korean languages and that does not make their languages Sino-Tibetan.
As for tones, Vietnamese does have tones just like Thai (Thai does not belong to Sino-Tibetan) and Chinese, but according to André-Georges Haudricourt, a well-known French linguist who published his findings about the origin of Vietnamese language in 1953, Vietnamese started out as a language without tones just like any other Mon-khmer languages, the tones only came about around the 6th century. He proved his theory by observing and comparing the tones of languages in the Vietic, also called Viet-Muong language group which is a very closely related group, and amongst them, some has 0 tones and some has 4 tones, 5 tones, or 6 tones, and just FYI, Muong is considered the ancient Vietnamese language. You can read about this in the following links:
http://www.anu.edu.au/~u9907217/languag ... /honda.pdf
http://www.csuchico.edu/~gt18/Papers/SEAPapers.htm
http://www.geocities.com/malves98/
Furthermore, before the Han's expansion into Southern China and Northern Vietnam, this area was mostly populated by people whose languages were Mon-khmer and Thai-Kadai and this could explain why there exist so many dialects in Southern China today. Only Vietnamese amongst a very few others was able to keep their own language and it did not turn into a Chinese dialect.
For all the reasons stated above, I believe Vietnamese is not part of the Sino-Tibetan language family but a language of Mon-khmer origin with influences from Chinese as we all know what the reason behind it is and from Thai due to the huge influx of Thai people into Northern Vietnam during the Mongol's invasion into south-western China during the 13th century.
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AlexNg
Re: Vietnamese is sino-tibetan ?
Hoang Nhat,
If you have read my previous post regarding the characteristics of a language to determine which language family it falls under, you would notice that loan words are not the criteria. In fact, how do you know whether a word is loaned or not loaned ? A loan word might actually be an original word for all you know. It is difficult to distinguish unless there is written evidence regarding the origin of a word and how it came about.
I have never argued that korean and japanese languages should belong to sino-tibetan. First of all, both those languages are non-tonal, they have very long words as compared to chinese short words and their sounds are completely different from chinese dialects. "Arigato" is completely different from "to che". There is no argument here that the koreans and japanese belong to the altaic language family. And anyway, the altaic language does not have the k, t ending sound that was originally in chinese but is evidenced in southern chinese dialects.
Whereas, the vietnamese language is much more similar, the similarities of tones, structures, words, surnames has much more similarities to sino-tibetan than mon-khmer.
A different word order does not imply it does not belong to that language family. Take for example, french, it also has the order reversed, "house white" rather than "white house" in english. But both of these belong to the "indo-european" language family. They are just a different branch - one is germanic, the other is latin. If I remember reading somewhere, the tibetan branch of sino-tibetan has the order reversed too, if I am not mistaken. I think you are confused as to what it means by sino-tibetan language family and the branches within it.
If you say that viet-muong is the ancient vietnamese language, then why is it that it has 4,5,6 tones ? This proves that originally it is tonal. As I have said in the past, tones are very difficult for non-tonal people to acquire. Did koreans acquire any tones during their hundred years occupancy by the chinese ? The french linguist assumption is just a theory and is being debated now.
I do not understand why vietnamese have two systems of numerals, I know 4 languages and none of them have two systems. It seems that one of these are the original version.
Isn't it strange that you "long" for dragon (nine dragon) sound so similar to "lung" for cantonese and mandarin. "hong" (red cross) for red sound so similar to "hung" for mandarin and chinese ? Aren't red a basic word ?
What is the word for korean red ?
If you have read my previous post regarding the characteristics of a language to determine which language family it falls under, you would notice that loan words are not the criteria. In fact, how do you know whether a word is loaned or not loaned ? A loan word might actually be an original word for all you know. It is difficult to distinguish unless there is written evidence regarding the origin of a word and how it came about.
I have never argued that korean and japanese languages should belong to sino-tibetan. First of all, both those languages are non-tonal, they have very long words as compared to chinese short words and their sounds are completely different from chinese dialects. "Arigato" is completely different from "to che". There is no argument here that the koreans and japanese belong to the altaic language family. And anyway, the altaic language does not have the k, t ending sound that was originally in chinese but is evidenced in southern chinese dialects.
Whereas, the vietnamese language is much more similar, the similarities of tones, structures, words, surnames has much more similarities to sino-tibetan than mon-khmer.
A different word order does not imply it does not belong to that language family. Take for example, french, it also has the order reversed, "house white" rather than "white house" in english. But both of these belong to the "indo-european" language family. They are just a different branch - one is germanic, the other is latin. If I remember reading somewhere, the tibetan branch of sino-tibetan has the order reversed too, if I am not mistaken. I think you are confused as to what it means by sino-tibetan language family and the branches within it.
If you say that viet-muong is the ancient vietnamese language, then why is it that it has 4,5,6 tones ? This proves that originally it is tonal. As I have said in the past, tones are very difficult for non-tonal people to acquire. Did koreans acquire any tones during their hundred years occupancy by the chinese ? The french linguist assumption is just a theory and is being debated now.
I do not understand why vietnamese have two systems of numerals, I know 4 languages and none of them have two systems. It seems that one of these are the original version.
Isn't it strange that you "long" for dragon (nine dragon) sound so similar to "lung" for cantonese and mandarin. "hong" (red cross) for red sound so similar to "hung" for mandarin and chinese ? Aren't red a basic word ?
What is the word for korean red ?
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Dylan Sung
Re: Vietnamese is sino-tibetan ?
The tones in Vietnamese are developed from various endings in early SV. See Jerry Norman's Chinese, and you will get a picture about how tones developed in SV readings.
AlexNg is mistaken in his assumption that because there are tone in Vietnamese, it is therefore derived from Chinese, or belong to the Chinese family of languages and not Mon - Khmer. A fairly good article to read is found here
http://www.vny2k.net/vny2k/SiniticVietnamese.htm
I have some difficulty displaying the Vietnamese quoc ngu romanisation, and I suspect others will too, but it shouldn't detract from the value of the article.
In my investigations of the Sino-Viet pronunciations, there isn't a clear cut derivation of MC character tones into modern SV. It is complex, and the six tones of SV readings show that,
MC Ping tone corresponds mostly to mainly Ngang and Huyen tones
MC Shang tone corresponds mostly to Hoi and Nga tones
MC Qu and Ru class tones mainly correspond to Sac and Nang tones.
However, this is a oversimplification, since
MC Shang and Qu tone characters are also found in both Ngang, Huyen, tones.
MC Ping and Qu tones characters are also found in Hoi and Nga tones.
MC Ping and Shang tones are found in Sac and Nang tones.
It is a complex relationship with some bearing on voicing of MC initials and also properties of the rimes etc.
Dyl.
AlexNg is mistaken in his assumption that because there are tone in Vietnamese, it is therefore derived from Chinese, or belong to the Chinese family of languages and not Mon - Khmer. A fairly good article to read is found here
http://www.vny2k.net/vny2k/SiniticVietnamese.htm
I have some difficulty displaying the Vietnamese quoc ngu romanisation, and I suspect others will too, but it shouldn't detract from the value of the article.
In my investigations of the Sino-Viet pronunciations, there isn't a clear cut derivation of MC character tones into modern SV. It is complex, and the six tones of SV readings show that,
MC Ping tone corresponds mostly to mainly Ngang and Huyen tones
MC Shang tone corresponds mostly to Hoi and Nga tones
MC Qu and Ru class tones mainly correspond to Sac and Nang tones.
However, this is a oversimplification, since
MC Shang and Qu tone characters are also found in both Ngang, Huyen, tones.
MC Ping and Qu tones characters are also found in Hoi and Nga tones.
MC Ping and Shang tones are found in Sac and Nang tones.
It is a complex relationship with some bearing on voicing of MC initials and also properties of the rimes etc.
Dyl.
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Hoang Nhat
Re: Vietnamese is sino-tibetan ?
AlexNg,
I knew that Korean and Japanese languages are very different from Chinese. I only mentioned Korean and Japanese loanwords because from what I see you guys were putting too much emphasis on Sino-Viet words in talking about the origin of Vietnamese language. Sino-Viet words are just loanwords. What is more important in study of a language origin is the core vocabulary of that language and it's undoubtedly Mon-Khmer in origin in the case of Vietnamese. Perhaps it's not your intention to delve into the Sino-Viet words almost exclusively, it just could be that you don't have a good knowledge of Vietnamese. You can't seem to distinguish a Sino-Viet word from a pure-Viet word.
For example, the word "long" for dragon is Sino-Viet, and that's why it sounds similar to "lung5" in Cantonese, or "long2" in Mandarin. The Viet word for dragon is "rồng". And "hồng" is also a Sino-Viet word for "red". The Viet word for red is "ðỏ". And as for the numerals, let me repeat that we use the Viet system of numerals for counting, not the Sino-Viet. You can see the Sino-Viet numerals only in Sino-Viet words and phrases like the ones I listed in my previous post. It seems like you can’t think and see beyond the Sino-Viet words, but once again I think it's due to your lack of knowledge about Vietnamese, but it does not matter much, I'm here to clear things up for you because I appreciate your interest in the Vietnamese language. You see, you've been focusing on a number of Sino-Viet words here, but in fact Vietnamese just like Cantonese has pronunciation for every character you can find in a Chinese dictionary, and we call the pronunciation the Sino-Viet (or Han-Viet). Let me make it as plain as possible, Cantonese speakers speak Cantonese, but Vietnamese speakers never speaks Sino-Viet. In the feudal era, we learned/read Chinese by using the Sino-Viet pronunciation, not Mandarin or Cantonese pronunciation, just like Koreans and Japanese used their Sino-Korean and Sino-Japanese in learning/reading Chinese. Although we have pronunciation for all Chinese words, we only borrow a (large) number of Chinese words into Vietnamese. This number is about 60% of our vocabulary. The percentage is lower in colloquial speech, about 20% I would say.
I mentioned the Vietnamese word order because this word order "noun + adjective" is characteristic of Mon-Khmer languages. I hope you do not really mean to go that far to put Vietnamese into the Tibetan language group (I'm just kidding here). As for the tones, Haudricourt and may other linguists proved that Vietnamese started out as a toneless language and gradually developed its tonal system within the last two thousand years. They reached the conclusion that contact with Chinese may have been a partial catalyst to the last stage of the development of the Vietnamese tonal system. The earlier stages were the result of regional, phonetically conditioned processes. Besides, even though Vietnamese has tones but it still retains the creaky and clear sounds that are pretty typical of Mon-Khmer languages. You have to visit the links that I mentioned in my previous post to understand it more, if you're really interested in learing about the origin of Vietnamese.
I don’t know what leads you to think that Viet-Muong is a language. It is not a language. It is a group of languages, very closely related with one another, and modern Vietnamese and Muong are members of that group. I mentioned in my previous post that “Muong is considered the ancient Vietnamese language”, but I should have stated more clearly that Muong is the predecessor of the modern Vietnamese language. The Viet-Muong group has been undergoing a process of developing tones. A number of them have developed into tonal languages, some has 3 tones, some has 4 tones, etc, but some still remains toneless. Again, the process of developing tones is an internal one.
By the way, Japanese must not be one of the 4 languages that you know, because it has two numeral systems too. One is Sino-Japanese, and the other is of Japanese origin, but unlike Vietnamese, Japanese prefer to use the Sino-Japanese numerals over the Japanese one.
I knew that Korean and Japanese languages are very different from Chinese. I only mentioned Korean and Japanese loanwords because from what I see you guys were putting too much emphasis on Sino-Viet words in talking about the origin of Vietnamese language. Sino-Viet words are just loanwords. What is more important in study of a language origin is the core vocabulary of that language and it's undoubtedly Mon-Khmer in origin in the case of Vietnamese. Perhaps it's not your intention to delve into the Sino-Viet words almost exclusively, it just could be that you don't have a good knowledge of Vietnamese. You can't seem to distinguish a Sino-Viet word from a pure-Viet word.
For example, the word "long" for dragon is Sino-Viet, and that's why it sounds similar to "lung5" in Cantonese, or "long2" in Mandarin. The Viet word for dragon is "rồng". And "hồng" is also a Sino-Viet word for "red". The Viet word for red is "ðỏ". And as for the numerals, let me repeat that we use the Viet system of numerals for counting, not the Sino-Viet. You can see the Sino-Viet numerals only in Sino-Viet words and phrases like the ones I listed in my previous post. It seems like you can’t think and see beyond the Sino-Viet words, but once again I think it's due to your lack of knowledge about Vietnamese, but it does not matter much, I'm here to clear things up for you because I appreciate your interest in the Vietnamese language. You see, you've been focusing on a number of Sino-Viet words here, but in fact Vietnamese just like Cantonese has pronunciation for every character you can find in a Chinese dictionary, and we call the pronunciation the Sino-Viet (or Han-Viet). Let me make it as plain as possible, Cantonese speakers speak Cantonese, but Vietnamese speakers never speaks Sino-Viet. In the feudal era, we learned/read Chinese by using the Sino-Viet pronunciation, not Mandarin or Cantonese pronunciation, just like Koreans and Japanese used their Sino-Korean and Sino-Japanese in learning/reading Chinese. Although we have pronunciation for all Chinese words, we only borrow a (large) number of Chinese words into Vietnamese. This number is about 60% of our vocabulary. The percentage is lower in colloquial speech, about 20% I would say.
I mentioned the Vietnamese word order because this word order "noun + adjective" is characteristic of Mon-Khmer languages. I hope you do not really mean to go that far to put Vietnamese into the Tibetan language group (I'm just kidding here). As for the tones, Haudricourt and may other linguists proved that Vietnamese started out as a toneless language and gradually developed its tonal system within the last two thousand years. They reached the conclusion that contact with Chinese may have been a partial catalyst to the last stage of the development of the Vietnamese tonal system. The earlier stages were the result of regional, phonetically conditioned processes. Besides, even though Vietnamese has tones but it still retains the creaky and clear sounds that are pretty typical of Mon-Khmer languages. You have to visit the links that I mentioned in my previous post to understand it more, if you're really interested in learing about the origin of Vietnamese.
I don’t know what leads you to think that Viet-Muong is a language. It is not a language. It is a group of languages, very closely related with one another, and modern Vietnamese and Muong are members of that group. I mentioned in my previous post that “Muong is considered the ancient Vietnamese language”, but I should have stated more clearly that Muong is the predecessor of the modern Vietnamese language. The Viet-Muong group has been undergoing a process of developing tones. A number of them have developed into tonal languages, some has 3 tones, some has 4 tones, etc, but some still remains toneless. Again, the process of developing tones is an internal one.
By the way, Japanese must not be one of the 4 languages that you know, because it has two numeral systems too. One is Sino-Japanese, and the other is of Japanese origin, but unlike Vietnamese, Japanese prefer to use the Sino-Japanese numerals over the Japanese one.
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qrasy
Re: Vietnamese is sino-tibetan ?
Hey! The discussion has gone so far, I have not yet stated my comments!
Sino-Viet is not good enough to consider, as I pointed out. AlexNg seems to know Sino-Viet much better than Vietnamese itself.
Lexicons:
As it is pointed out in http://www.zompist.com/proto.htm:
>Similar words with similar meanings do not prove that languages are related. They
>might point to a relationship-- but they might also be due to borrowing they might
>be due to universal processes like babytalk or onomatopoeia; and above all they
>may just be chance.
Example:
Quechua Runa ~ Chinese Ren
Leaf, book, cut, and fly are very similar to Sino-Tibetan
About Malayo-Polynesian (or Austronesian)--> Viet, I disagree.
>V.Sông Mã. M.sungai emas (river having gold)
>V.cây (tree); M.kayu
Sông is actually from "Krông", and "cây" from "k?l" (as in M??ng)
About gò n?ng, I think this is a loanword, since "gò" and "n?ng" do not have any meaning, as "geo" do not have direct meanings in English.
And I think Malay/Khmer is not good enough to consider because:
-They are a mix of Mongoloid and Negroid (proto-Austronesians were negroid, and I wonder if this Mongoloid were the "Chinese" or their "cousins"), so there could be many Sino-Tibetan words found, even basic words.
-They like to borrow from many languages (lack of many words, even some basic ones!)
If I see an Indonesian/Malay word very similar to a very far language, I will think that it comes not form Indonesian/Malay, but from the other language, as most who live in Indonesia.
Malay/Khmer has also many "Chinese" words.
An example:
OC *kak ~ Malay Kaki
(this word seems to have a source in a Sino-Tibetan language, since in Sundanese/Javanese the words for "leg" are not similar to Malay)
This is not impossible since a more complicated word could derive from a simple word.
example:
Tick (or similar word from Indo-European)--> Detik (Indonesian)
Book (or similar word from Germanic)--> Buku (Indonesian)
And I wonder why Thai have "Chinese" counting system if it is not from Sino-Tibetan (see http://www.zompist.com/asia.htm), and why Kam-Sui numbers' tones fits very well to Chinese (in the page, A=ping, B=qu, C=shang, D=ru). However, loaning of numbers are possible, as in Pou Ma.
Also, I want to point out that:
*Thai "Father"/"Mother" is also similar to Chinese.
*Family relationships in Viets are also similar to Chinese
*There are many basic Vietnamese words that are similar to Chinese.
*Mon-Khmer has a stock of proto-Sino-Tibetan words, one even can find words in Mon-Khmer languages that are more similar to Chinese than Viets.
example:
Mon: Ti "Earth" ~ Chinese Ti4
Brao: Man "Night" ~ Chinese Wan3
Genetics:
I know what I was wrong about. Even Karen & Hani tribes of Sino-Tibetan languages do not have fair skins. But In genetics, I know that Dark skin, curly hair, and many other features that exist in Malay are more dominant than Chinese genes, so Malay+Chinese will likely Produce Malay. (I see that my friends who were born from Malay+Chinese are never similar to Chinese)
History:
Bai Yue/Bách Vi?t-->Nam Vi?t-->....-->Vi?t Nam
I think Viets were the mose direct descendants of BaiYue. BaiYue contained not only Viets, but also Tais. Some BaiYue words can be found in http://www.vny2k.net/vny2k/SiniticVietnamese.htm
I think Mon-Khmer were further mix of Austronesian and the "Chinese", so if the "Chinese" were of BaiYue origin, it is highly possible to find many BaiYue words.
Tones/Endings:
"Yap"/"Ru" tones are actually "Qu" tones + Stop Endings (-t, -p, -k), so it is no doubt that in the system considering pitches, the "Ru" tones should merge into "Qu".
And, pure Vietnamese ~ Chinese tone correspondences are very different with Sino-Vietnemese ~ Chinese
Mostly: Ping ~ Ngang-huy?n Ex: bu?n
Shang ~ S?c-N?ng Ex: mu?n; cám
Qu(1) ~ Ngang-huy?n Ex: g??m;qua;ng?a; buông
Qu(2) ~ h?i-ngã Ex: ?i?n; r?; th?
Qu(3) ~ S?c-N?ng Ex: ch?; b?ng
Ru ~ S?c-N?ng Ex: ???c; ph??c
This is because there are not only 3 kinds of endings, and tones can merge. There could be more than 8 tones in Old Chinese.
Yang and Yin can change, but rarely some change to other kinds of tone.
Mon-Khmer could be a toneless version of Sino-Tibetan (Mon-Khmer has a stock of proto-Sino-Tibetan words). Toneless member of Vi?t-M??ng should be grouped outside the group. There could be a mistake of grouping, like Karen was grouped in Ultraindia languages. (see http://www.anu.edu.au/~u9907217/languag ... ture1.html)
The tones in non-Sino-Tibetan languages seem to have no real meaning. It is their habit to pronounce a syllable with a definite tone (It is like what is called "logat" in Indonesian), and I think they should not have any syllable with more than 1 tone.
And also, Korean has many kinds of endings, more than even Southern Chinese! We can see from the Hangul Characters that there are more than 20 kinds of Jongseong,or Endings.
Sino-Viet is not good enough to consider, as I pointed out. AlexNg seems to know Sino-Viet much better than Vietnamese itself.
Lexicons:
As it is pointed out in http://www.zompist.com/proto.htm:
>Similar words with similar meanings do not prove that languages are related. They
>might point to a relationship-- but they might also be due to borrowing they might
>be due to universal processes like babytalk or onomatopoeia; and above all they
>may just be chance.
Example:
Quechua Runa ~ Chinese Ren
Leaf, book, cut, and fly are very similar to Sino-Tibetan
About Malayo-Polynesian (or Austronesian)--> Viet, I disagree.
>V.Sông Mã. M.sungai emas (river having gold)
>V.cây (tree); M.kayu
Sông is actually from "Krông", and "cây" from "k?l" (as in M??ng)
About gò n?ng, I think this is a loanword, since "gò" and "n?ng" do not have any meaning, as "geo" do not have direct meanings in English.
And I think Malay/Khmer is not good enough to consider because:
-They are a mix of Mongoloid and Negroid (proto-Austronesians were negroid, and I wonder if this Mongoloid were the "Chinese" or their "cousins"), so there could be many Sino-Tibetan words found, even basic words.
-They like to borrow from many languages (lack of many words, even some basic ones!)
If I see an Indonesian/Malay word very similar to a very far language, I will think that it comes not form Indonesian/Malay, but from the other language, as most who live in Indonesia.
Malay/Khmer has also many "Chinese" words.
An example:
OC *kak ~ Malay Kaki
(this word seems to have a source in a Sino-Tibetan language, since in Sundanese/Javanese the words for "leg" are not similar to Malay)
This is not impossible since a more complicated word could derive from a simple word.
example:
Tick (or similar word from Indo-European)--> Detik (Indonesian)
Book (or similar word from Germanic)--> Buku (Indonesian)
And I wonder why Thai have "Chinese" counting system if it is not from Sino-Tibetan (see http://www.zompist.com/asia.htm), and why Kam-Sui numbers' tones fits very well to Chinese (in the page, A=ping, B=qu, C=shang, D=ru). However, loaning of numbers are possible, as in Pou Ma.
Also, I want to point out that:
*Thai "Father"/"Mother" is also similar to Chinese.
*Family relationships in Viets are also similar to Chinese
*There are many basic Vietnamese words that are similar to Chinese.
*Mon-Khmer has a stock of proto-Sino-Tibetan words, one even can find words in Mon-Khmer languages that are more similar to Chinese than Viets.
example:
Mon: Ti "Earth" ~ Chinese Ti4
Brao: Man "Night" ~ Chinese Wan3
Genetics:
I know what I was wrong about. Even Karen & Hani tribes of Sino-Tibetan languages do not have fair skins. But In genetics, I know that Dark skin, curly hair, and many other features that exist in Malay are more dominant than Chinese genes, so Malay+Chinese will likely Produce Malay. (I see that my friends who were born from Malay+Chinese are never similar to Chinese)
History:
Bai Yue/Bách Vi?t-->Nam Vi?t-->....-->Vi?t Nam
I think Viets were the mose direct descendants of BaiYue. BaiYue contained not only Viets, but also Tais. Some BaiYue words can be found in http://www.vny2k.net/vny2k/SiniticVietnamese.htm
I think Mon-Khmer were further mix of Austronesian and the "Chinese", so if the "Chinese" were of BaiYue origin, it is highly possible to find many BaiYue words.
Tones/Endings:
"Yap"/"Ru" tones are actually "Qu" tones + Stop Endings (-t, -p, -k), so it is no doubt that in the system considering pitches, the "Ru" tones should merge into "Qu".
And, pure Vietnamese ~ Chinese tone correspondences are very different with Sino-Vietnemese ~ Chinese
Mostly: Ping ~ Ngang-huy?n Ex: bu?n
Shang ~ S?c-N?ng Ex: mu?n; cám
Qu(1) ~ Ngang-huy?n Ex: g??m;qua;ng?a; buông
Qu(2) ~ h?i-ngã Ex: ?i?n; r?; th?
Qu(3) ~ S?c-N?ng Ex: ch?; b?ng
Ru ~ S?c-N?ng Ex: ???c; ph??c
This is because there are not only 3 kinds of endings, and tones can merge. There could be more than 8 tones in Old Chinese.
Yang and Yin can change, but rarely some change to other kinds of tone.
Mon-Khmer could be a toneless version of Sino-Tibetan (Mon-Khmer has a stock of proto-Sino-Tibetan words). Toneless member of Vi?t-M??ng should be grouped outside the group. There could be a mistake of grouping, like Karen was grouped in Ultraindia languages. (see http://www.anu.edu.au/~u9907217/languag ... ture1.html)
The tones in non-Sino-Tibetan languages seem to have no real meaning. It is their habit to pronounce a syllable with a definite tone (It is like what is called "logat" in Indonesian), and I think they should not have any syllable with more than 1 tone.
And also, Korean has many kinds of endings, more than even Southern Chinese! We can see from the Hangul Characters that there are more than 20 kinds of Jongseong,or Endings.
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Dylan Sung
Re: Vietnamese is sino-tibetan ?
With regards to Sino-Korean readings, the Unihand database provides readings of Chinese characters. I did a search of these pronunciations and the database yields the following list
Let me give you the list of sino-korean sounds again which I extracted from
the Unihan database
A AK AL AM AN ANG AP AY AYK AYNG BAK BEN BI BYEL BYENG CA CAK CAL CAM CAN
CANG CAP CAY CAYNG CE CEK CEL CEM CEN CENG CEP CEY CHA CHAK CHAL CHAM CHAN
CHANG CHAY CHAYK CHE CHEK CHEL CHEM CHEN CHENG CHEP CHEY CHI CHIK CHIL CHIM
CHIN CHING CHIP CHO CHOK CHOL CHON CHONG CHOY CHUK CHUN CHUNG CHWAL CHWAY
CHWEY CHWI CHWU CHWUK CHWUL CHWUN CHWUNG CI CIK CIL CIM CIN CING CIP CIS CO
COK COL CON CONG COY CUK CUL CUNG CUP CWA CWU CWUK CWUL CWUN CWUNG DDA'P
DDA'T E EK EL EM EN EP ES EY HA HAK HAL HAM HAN HANG HAP HAY HAYK HAYNG HE
HEL HEM HEN HI HIL HO HOI HOK HOL HON HONG HOY HOYK HOYNG HUING HUK HUL HUM
HUN HUNG HUP HUY HWA HWAK HWAL HWAN HWANG HWAY HWEN HWEY HWI HWU HWUL HWUN
HWUNG HYANG HYE HYEK HYEL HYEM HYEN HYENG HYEP HYEY HYO HYU HYUK HYUL HYUNG
I IK IL IM IN ING IP KA KAK KAL KAM KAN KANG KAP KAY KAYK KAYNG KE KEK KEL
KEM KEN KEP KES KEY KHWAY KI KIL KIM KIN KKIK KKUT KO KOC KOK KOL KON KONG
KOY KOYK KOYNG KUK KUL KUM KUN KUNG KUP KWA KWAK KWAL KWAN KWANG KWAY KWEL
KWEN KWEY KWI KWU KWUK KWUL KWUN KWUNG KYAK KYEK KYEL KYEM KYEN KYENG KYEP
KYEY KYO KYU KYUL KYUN LA LAK LAL LAM LAN LANG LAP LAY LAYNG LEY LI LIM LIN
LIP LO LOK LON LONG LOY LUK LUM LUNG LWI LWU LYAK LYANG LYE LYEK LYEL LYEM
LYEN LYENG LYEP LYEY LYO LYONG LYU LYUK LYUL LYUN LYUNG MA MAK MAL MAN MANG
MAY MAYK MAYNG MENG MESHII MI MIL MIN MO MOK MOL MONG MU MWU MWUK MWUL MWUN
MYA MYE MYEK MYEL MYEN MYENG MYEY MYO NA NAK NAL NAM NAN NANG NAP NAY NAYNG
NI NIK NIL NO NOK NON NONG NOY NUC NUK NUM NUNG NWU NWUL NWUN NYE NYEK NYEL
NYEM NYEN NYENG NYEP NYEY NYO NYU NYUK O OAY OK OL ON ONG OY PAK PAL PAN
PANG PAY PAYK PEL PEM PEN PEP PEY PEYI PEYK PHA PHAL PHAN PHAS PHAY PHAYNG
PHI PHIK PHIL PHIP PHO PHOK PHOL PHOS PHWUM PHWUN PHWUNG PHYAK PHYEM PHYEN
PHYENG PHYEY PHYO PI PIN PING PO POK PON PONG PPWUN PWU PWUK PWUL PWUN PWUNG
PYEK PYEL PYEN PYENG SA SA-LAM-IN-PYEN SAK SAL SAM SAN SANG SAP SAY SAYK
SAYNG SE SEK SEL SEM SEN SENG SEP SEY SHIIKU SI SIK SIL SIM SIN SIP SO SOK
SOL SON SONG SOY SSANG SSI SUI SUL SUNG SUP SWA SWAY SWI SWU SWUK SWUL SWUN
SWUNG SYA TA TAL TAM TAN TANG TAP TAY TAYK TEK THA THAK THAL THAM THAN THANG
THAP THAY THAYK THAYNG THE THO THON THONG THOY THUK THUM THWU THWUNG TO TOK
TOL TON TONG TUK TUNG TWU TWUL TWUN UK UL UM UN UNG UP UY UYS WA WAL WAN
WANG WAY WEL WEN WI WOY WU WUK WUL WUN WUNG YA YAK YAKU YANG YE YEK YEL YEM
YEN YENG YEP YEY YEYN YO YOK YONG YU YUK YUL YUN YUNG
Moreover, the frequency of characters with each reading is as follows
BAK 1 BEN 1 BI 1 BYEL 1 BYENG 1 CHIP 1 CHOL 1 CHUN 1 CHWAL 1 CHWAY 1 CIS 1
DDA'P 1 DDA'T 1 ES 1 HEL 1 HI 1 HOI 1 HUING 1 HWUL 1 HWUNG 1 HYE 1 HYEM 1
KEK 1 KES 1 KIM 1 KIN 1 KKIK 1 KKUT 1 KYUL 1 LAYNG 1 LEY 1 LON 1 LWI 1
MESHII 1 MU 1 MYA 1 MYE 1 MYEY 1 NAYNG 1 NUC 1 NUM 1 NWUN 1 NYEK 1 NYEP 1
NYEY 1 NYUK 1 OAY 1 PEYI 1 PEYK 1 PHAS 1 PHIK 1 PHOL 1 PHOS 1 PHWUN 1 PHYAK
1 PON 1 PPWUN 1 SA-LAM-IN-PYEN 1 SHIIKU 1 SSI 1 SUI 1 SYA 1 TAYK 1 THE 1
THUM 1 THWUNG 1 TUK 1 TWUL 1 UK 1 UYS 1 WAL 1 YAKU 1 YEYN 1 CAL 2 CHUNG 2
COY 2 EY 2 HUK 2 HUNG 2 HWAY 2 HYUK 2 KAYK 2 KUL 2 KYAK 2 NIK 2 NIL 2 NON 2
NUK 2 NYE 2 NYEL 2 PEP 2 PWUK 2 SSANG 2 SWA 2 UL 2 WUNG 2 CHIL 3 CIM 3 CON 3
CUK 3 CUL 3 CWUK 3 HYUL 3 KOC 3 KOYK 3 LYUNG 3 MWUL 3 NAL 3 PHAL 3 PHIP 3
PHWUM 3 PHYEM 3 SOY 3 TA 3 CHING 4 COL 4 CWUL 4 HUM 4 KHWAY 4 KYEP 4 LUM 4
LYAK 4 LYEP 4 MENG 4 MOL 4 MYEL 4 NWUL 4 NYEM 4 NYEN 4 NYU 4 PEY 4 SWUNG 4
TEK 4 THAYNG 4 THON 4 THUK 4 CHWEY 5 CHWUN 5 CWUNG 5 EP 5 HAYK 5 HOK 5 ING 5
KEP 5 LAL 5 LAP 5 LIP 5 LYONG 5 MWUK 5 MYEK 5 SAY 5 SOL 5 SUL 5 TOL 5 WAY 5
WUL 5 CHIK 6 CHIN 6 CHON 6 CHWUL 6 COK 6 EK 6 HAYNG 6 HIL 6 HOL 6 HOYK 6 KEY
6 LIM 6 LUK 6 LYUK 6 MAYNG 6 MIL 6 NUNG 6 PEL 6 SAL 6 SWI 6 SWUL 6 TAP 6
THAL 6 THAYK 6 THO 6 UNG 6 WEL 6 YUNG 6 CHUK 7 CIK 7 CUP 7 EL 7 HAL 7 HE 7
HYEL 7 KUNG 7 NAP 7 NOK 7 OL 7 OY 7 PHOK 7 SIL 7 SIP 7 CING 8 HEM 8 HUP 8
HWAL 8 HWEY 8 HYUNG 8 IP 8 KAYNG 8 KIL 8 KOL 8 KWAY 8 KWEL 8 LYUL 8 THAM 8
YOK 8 AYNG 9 HEN 9 HOYNG 9 KAP 9 KWAK 9 KWUL 9 KWUNG 9 LUNG 9 MAL 9 NAK 9
NANG 9 NI 9 NWU 9 NYENG 9 PHAN 9 PWUNG 9 SAYNG 9 THAP 9 UP 9 WOY 9 AP 10 CWA
10 HYEK 10 LAY 10 MAK 10 MAYK 10 NOY 10 NYO 10 OK 10 PING 10 SON 10 SUP 10
SWAY 10 THWU 10 TWUN 10 WANG 10 YUL 10 CAP 11 CAYNG 11 CHE 11 HUL 11 HWEN 11
KEL 11 KWUN 11 LYEY 11 LYUN 11 MOK 11 NAM 11 PAYK 11 PHWUNG 11 SAK 11 TAL 11
THANG 11 THONG 11 YUK 11 CHAL 12 CHWUNG 12 CIP 12 HYANG 12 IK 12 LYEL 12
LYEM 12 PHAYNG 12 PYEL 12 SAYK 12 SOK 12 SONG 12 THOY 12 AYK 13 CAM 13 CAN
13 CEP 13 CHOY 13 HUN 13 KOYNG 13 KUP 13 KWI 13 KYEL 13 KYUN 13 LAK 13 NAN
13 NONG 13 AL 14 HON 14 HWAK 14 HWI 14 MONG 14 NAY 14 PEM 14 PHYENG 14 SUNG
14 WUK 14 ANG 15 E 15 HYU 15 KWAL 15 KWUK 15 KYEK 15 KYEM 15 LAM 15 LANG 15
LYEK 15 PHI 15 SEP 15 UM 15 YEP 15 CHAK 16 CHEP 16 KOK 16 KUK 16 LONG 16
MYENG 16 SAM 16 SEM 16 CEL 17 CHAYK 17 CUNG 17 HAP 17 HONG 17 IL 17 IM 17
LOK 17 TOK 17 YEL 17 YUN 17 EN 18 PHYEY 18 SAP 18 SIK 18 SWUK 18 HAK 19 MYO
19 PEN 19 PYEK 19 TON 19 WA 19 YA 19 AM 20 CHAY 20 CHEM 20 CHOK 20 EM 20
HWUN 20 LAN 20 LOY 20 MYEN 20 ONG 20 SEY 20 TUNG 20 YAK 20 HYEY 21 KEN 21 MA
21 MANG 21 SIM 21 YEK 21 AN 22 KAK 22 KWEN 22 LIN 22 LWU 22 PHYEN 22 SENG 22
THAN 22 WUN 22 CHENG 23 CHIM 23 CHWI 23 CHWUK 23 HAM 23 KEM 23 KOY 23 LA 23
LYU 23 MWUN 23 NA 23 KAL 24 LYANG 24 PHAY 24 PWUL 24 TWU 24 CEM 25 CHEL 25
CIL 25 KUM 25 KYEN 25 LYO 25 MIN 25 NO 25 PAL 25 UN 25 CAY 26 HWA 26 HYEP 26
PAY 26 SEL 26 KUN 27 KWEY 27 PHIL 27 PYEN 27 AK 28 CAK 28 CHEY 28 CHONG 28
HA 28 HANG 28 KON 28 ON 28 PONG 28 HAN 29 HWU 29 KWA 29 LYEN 29 PO 29 SAN 29
SEK 29 TANG 29 CHEK 30 KAM 30 MAY 30 PIN 30 TAY 30 THAY 30 CHAN 31 PAK 31
PHYO 31 YEM 31 CONG 32 HYENG 32 KWANG 32 WAN 32 KONG 33 LYENG 33 MAN 33 MWU
33 POK 33 PYENG 33 YE 33 TAM 34 HAY 35 HYO 35 THAK 35 CHA 36 CHAM 36 KYU 36
HWANG 37 YONG 37 A 38 KAY 38 PHA 38 THA 38 TONG 38 AY 39 HOY 39 HYEN 39 LO
39 SWUN 39 UY 39 LYE 40 MI 40 CWUN 41 IN 41 KE 41 CEK 42 HUY 42 KAN 42 PAN
42 CHANG 43 HWAN 43 KWAN 43 KYEY 43 SIN 43 TAN 44 MO 45 PWUN 45 CHEN 47 LI
47 PHO 47 SE 47 PANG 48 YANG 48 KA 49 KANG 49 WEN 49 WI 50 CIN 51 KYO 52
SANG 52 WU 52 CE 53 YEY 53 CEY 56 CHO 58 YENG 58 CHI 59 SI 59 CHWU 60 CA 62
CI 62 SEN 64 YO 68 O 69 CANG 70 TO 71 YEN 72 HO 73 KYENG 73 I 76 SO 78 KO 79
CWU 83 CENG 84 PWU 84 CO 95 SWU 95 CEN 99 PI 100 SA 104 YU 112 KI 122 KWU
128
Total number of character readings = 9752
So out of the 9752 character readings, the 10 most loaded syllables are
CENG 84
PWU 84
CO 95
SWU 95
CEN 99
PI 100
SA 104
YU 112
KI 122
KWU 128
This accounts for 1/10 of all readings of SinoKorean readings characters
found in Unihan.txt.
Dyl.
Let me give you the list of sino-korean sounds again which I extracted from
the Unihan database
A AK AL AM AN ANG AP AY AYK AYNG BAK BEN BI BYEL BYENG CA CAK CAL CAM CAN
CANG CAP CAY CAYNG CE CEK CEL CEM CEN CENG CEP CEY CHA CHAK CHAL CHAM CHAN
CHANG CHAY CHAYK CHE CHEK CHEL CHEM CHEN CHENG CHEP CHEY CHI CHIK CHIL CHIM
CHIN CHING CHIP CHO CHOK CHOL CHON CHONG CHOY CHUK CHUN CHUNG CHWAL CHWAY
CHWEY CHWI CHWU CHWUK CHWUL CHWUN CHWUNG CI CIK CIL CIM CIN CING CIP CIS CO
COK COL CON CONG COY CUK CUL CUNG CUP CWA CWU CWUK CWUL CWUN CWUNG DDA'P
DDA'T E EK EL EM EN EP ES EY HA HAK HAL HAM HAN HANG HAP HAY HAYK HAYNG HE
HEL HEM HEN HI HIL HO HOI HOK HOL HON HONG HOY HOYK HOYNG HUING HUK HUL HUM
HUN HUNG HUP HUY HWA HWAK HWAL HWAN HWANG HWAY HWEN HWEY HWI HWU HWUL HWUN
HWUNG HYANG HYE HYEK HYEL HYEM HYEN HYENG HYEP HYEY HYO HYU HYUK HYUL HYUNG
I IK IL IM IN ING IP KA KAK KAL KAM KAN KANG KAP KAY KAYK KAYNG KE KEK KEL
KEM KEN KEP KES KEY KHWAY KI KIL KIM KIN KKIK KKUT KO KOC KOK KOL KON KONG
KOY KOYK KOYNG KUK KUL KUM KUN KUNG KUP KWA KWAK KWAL KWAN KWANG KWAY KWEL
KWEN KWEY KWI KWU KWUK KWUL KWUN KWUNG KYAK KYEK KYEL KYEM KYEN KYENG KYEP
KYEY KYO KYU KYUL KYUN LA LAK LAL LAM LAN LANG LAP LAY LAYNG LEY LI LIM LIN
LIP LO LOK LON LONG LOY LUK LUM LUNG LWI LWU LYAK LYANG LYE LYEK LYEL LYEM
LYEN LYENG LYEP LYEY LYO LYONG LYU LYUK LYUL LYUN LYUNG MA MAK MAL MAN MANG
MAY MAYK MAYNG MENG MESHII MI MIL MIN MO MOK MOL MONG MU MWU MWUK MWUL MWUN
MYA MYE MYEK MYEL MYEN MYENG MYEY MYO NA NAK NAL NAM NAN NANG NAP NAY NAYNG
NI NIK NIL NO NOK NON NONG NOY NUC NUK NUM NUNG NWU NWUL NWUN NYE NYEK NYEL
NYEM NYEN NYENG NYEP NYEY NYO NYU NYUK O OAY OK OL ON ONG OY PAK PAL PAN
PANG PAY PAYK PEL PEM PEN PEP PEY PEYI PEYK PHA PHAL PHAN PHAS PHAY PHAYNG
PHI PHIK PHIL PHIP PHO PHOK PHOL PHOS PHWUM PHWUN PHWUNG PHYAK PHYEM PHYEN
PHYENG PHYEY PHYO PI PIN PING PO POK PON PONG PPWUN PWU PWUK PWUL PWUN PWUNG
PYEK PYEL PYEN PYENG SA SA-LAM-IN-PYEN SAK SAL SAM SAN SANG SAP SAY SAYK
SAYNG SE SEK SEL SEM SEN SENG SEP SEY SHIIKU SI SIK SIL SIM SIN SIP SO SOK
SOL SON SONG SOY SSANG SSI SUI SUL SUNG SUP SWA SWAY SWI SWU SWUK SWUL SWUN
SWUNG SYA TA TAL TAM TAN TANG TAP TAY TAYK TEK THA THAK THAL THAM THAN THANG
THAP THAY THAYK THAYNG THE THO THON THONG THOY THUK THUM THWU THWUNG TO TOK
TOL TON TONG TUK TUNG TWU TWUL TWUN UK UL UM UN UNG UP UY UYS WA WAL WAN
WANG WAY WEL WEN WI WOY WU WUK WUL WUN WUNG YA YAK YAKU YANG YE YEK YEL YEM
YEN YENG YEP YEY YEYN YO YOK YONG YU YUK YUL YUN YUNG
Moreover, the frequency of characters with each reading is as follows
BAK 1 BEN 1 BI 1 BYEL 1 BYENG 1 CHIP 1 CHOL 1 CHUN 1 CHWAL 1 CHWAY 1 CIS 1
DDA'P 1 DDA'T 1 ES 1 HEL 1 HI 1 HOI 1 HUING 1 HWUL 1 HWUNG 1 HYE 1 HYEM 1
KEK 1 KES 1 KIM 1 KIN 1 KKIK 1 KKUT 1 KYUL 1 LAYNG 1 LEY 1 LON 1 LWI 1
MESHII 1 MU 1 MYA 1 MYE 1 MYEY 1 NAYNG 1 NUC 1 NUM 1 NWUN 1 NYEK 1 NYEP 1
NYEY 1 NYUK 1 OAY 1 PEYI 1 PEYK 1 PHAS 1 PHIK 1 PHOL 1 PHOS 1 PHWUN 1 PHYAK
1 PON 1 PPWUN 1 SA-LAM-IN-PYEN 1 SHIIKU 1 SSI 1 SUI 1 SYA 1 TAYK 1 THE 1
THUM 1 THWUNG 1 TUK 1 TWUL 1 UK 1 UYS 1 WAL 1 YAKU 1 YEYN 1 CAL 2 CHUNG 2
COY 2 EY 2 HUK 2 HUNG 2 HWAY 2 HYUK 2 KAYK 2 KUL 2 KYAK 2 NIK 2 NIL 2 NON 2
NUK 2 NYE 2 NYEL 2 PEP 2 PWUK 2 SSANG 2 SWA 2 UL 2 WUNG 2 CHIL 3 CIM 3 CON 3
CUK 3 CUL 3 CWUK 3 HYUL 3 KOC 3 KOYK 3 LYUNG 3 MWUL 3 NAL 3 PHAL 3 PHIP 3
PHWUM 3 PHYEM 3 SOY 3 TA 3 CHING 4 COL 4 CWUL 4 HUM 4 KHWAY 4 KYEP 4 LUM 4
LYAK 4 LYEP 4 MENG 4 MOL 4 MYEL 4 NWUL 4 NYEM 4 NYEN 4 NYU 4 PEY 4 SWUNG 4
TEK 4 THAYNG 4 THON 4 THUK 4 CHWEY 5 CHWUN 5 CWUNG 5 EP 5 HAYK 5 HOK 5 ING 5
KEP 5 LAL 5 LAP 5 LIP 5 LYONG 5 MWUK 5 MYEK 5 SAY 5 SOL 5 SUL 5 TOL 5 WAY 5
WUL 5 CHIK 6 CHIN 6 CHON 6 CHWUL 6 COK 6 EK 6 HAYNG 6 HIL 6 HOL 6 HOYK 6 KEY
6 LIM 6 LUK 6 LYUK 6 MAYNG 6 MIL 6 NUNG 6 PEL 6 SAL 6 SWI 6 SWUL 6 TAP 6
THAL 6 THAYK 6 THO 6 UNG 6 WEL 6 YUNG 6 CHUK 7 CIK 7 CUP 7 EL 7 HAL 7 HE 7
HYEL 7 KUNG 7 NAP 7 NOK 7 OL 7 OY 7 PHOK 7 SIL 7 SIP 7 CING 8 HEM 8 HUP 8
HWAL 8 HWEY 8 HYUNG 8 IP 8 KAYNG 8 KIL 8 KOL 8 KWAY 8 KWEL 8 LYUL 8 THAM 8
YOK 8 AYNG 9 HEN 9 HOYNG 9 KAP 9 KWAK 9 KWUL 9 KWUNG 9 LUNG 9 MAL 9 NAK 9
NANG 9 NI 9 NWU 9 NYENG 9 PHAN 9 PWUNG 9 SAYNG 9 THAP 9 UP 9 WOY 9 AP 10 CWA
10 HYEK 10 LAY 10 MAK 10 MAYK 10 NOY 10 NYO 10 OK 10 PING 10 SON 10 SUP 10
SWAY 10 THWU 10 TWUN 10 WANG 10 YUL 10 CAP 11 CAYNG 11 CHE 11 HUL 11 HWEN 11
KEL 11 KWUN 11 LYEY 11 LYUN 11 MOK 11 NAM 11 PAYK 11 PHWUNG 11 SAK 11 TAL 11
THANG 11 THONG 11 YUK 11 CHAL 12 CHWUNG 12 CIP 12 HYANG 12 IK 12 LYEL 12
LYEM 12 PHAYNG 12 PYEL 12 SAYK 12 SOK 12 SONG 12 THOY 12 AYK 13 CAM 13 CAN
13 CEP 13 CHOY 13 HUN 13 KOYNG 13 KUP 13 KWI 13 KYEL 13 KYUN 13 LAK 13 NAN
13 NONG 13 AL 14 HON 14 HWAK 14 HWI 14 MONG 14 NAY 14 PEM 14 PHYENG 14 SUNG
14 WUK 14 ANG 15 E 15 HYU 15 KWAL 15 KWUK 15 KYEK 15 KYEM 15 LAM 15 LANG 15
LYEK 15 PHI 15 SEP 15 UM 15 YEP 15 CHAK 16 CHEP 16 KOK 16 KUK 16 LONG 16
MYENG 16 SAM 16 SEM 16 CEL 17 CHAYK 17 CUNG 17 HAP 17 HONG 17 IL 17 IM 17
LOK 17 TOK 17 YEL 17 YUN 17 EN 18 PHYEY 18 SAP 18 SIK 18 SWUK 18 HAK 19 MYO
19 PEN 19 PYEK 19 TON 19 WA 19 YA 19 AM 20 CHAY 20 CHEM 20 CHOK 20 EM 20
HWUN 20 LAN 20 LOY 20 MYEN 20 ONG 20 SEY 20 TUNG 20 YAK 20 HYEY 21 KEN 21 MA
21 MANG 21 SIM 21 YEK 21 AN 22 KAK 22 KWEN 22 LIN 22 LWU 22 PHYEN 22 SENG 22
THAN 22 WUN 22 CHENG 23 CHIM 23 CHWI 23 CHWUK 23 HAM 23 KEM 23 KOY 23 LA 23
LYU 23 MWUN 23 NA 23 KAL 24 LYANG 24 PHAY 24 PWUL 24 TWU 24 CEM 25 CHEL 25
CIL 25 KUM 25 KYEN 25 LYO 25 MIN 25 NO 25 PAL 25 UN 25 CAY 26 HWA 26 HYEP 26
PAY 26 SEL 26 KUN 27 KWEY 27 PHIL 27 PYEN 27 AK 28 CAK 28 CHEY 28 CHONG 28
HA 28 HANG 28 KON 28 ON 28 PONG 28 HAN 29 HWU 29 KWA 29 LYEN 29 PO 29 SAN 29
SEK 29 TANG 29 CHEK 30 KAM 30 MAY 30 PIN 30 TAY 30 THAY 30 CHAN 31 PAK 31
PHYO 31 YEM 31 CONG 32 HYENG 32 KWANG 32 WAN 32 KONG 33 LYENG 33 MAN 33 MWU
33 POK 33 PYENG 33 YE 33 TAM 34 HAY 35 HYO 35 THAK 35 CHA 36 CHAM 36 KYU 36
HWANG 37 YONG 37 A 38 KAY 38 PHA 38 THA 38 TONG 38 AY 39 HOY 39 HYEN 39 LO
39 SWUN 39 UY 39 LYE 40 MI 40 CWUN 41 IN 41 KE 41 CEK 42 HUY 42 KAN 42 PAN
42 CHANG 43 HWAN 43 KWAN 43 KYEY 43 SIN 43 TAN 44 MO 45 PWUN 45 CHEN 47 LI
47 PHO 47 SE 47 PANG 48 YANG 48 KA 49 KANG 49 WEN 49 WI 50 CIN 51 KYO 52
SANG 52 WU 52 CE 53 YEY 53 CEY 56 CHO 58 YENG 58 CHI 59 SI 59 CHWU 60 CA 62
CI 62 SEN 64 YO 68 O 69 CANG 70 TO 71 YEN 72 HO 73 KYENG 73 I 76 SO 78 KO 79
CWU 83 CENG 84 PWU 84 CO 95 SWU 95 CEN 99 PI 100 SA 104 YU 112 KI 122 KWU
128
Total number of character readings = 9752
So out of the 9752 character readings, the 10 most loaded syllables are
CENG 84
PWU 84
CO 95
SWU 95
CEN 99
PI 100
SA 104
YU 112
KI 122
KWU 128
This accounts for 1/10 of all readings of SinoKorean readings characters
found in Unihan.txt.
Dyl.
-
Dylan Sung
Re: Vietnamese is sino-tibetan ?
BTW, the endings of these syllables show those which end in vowels, those ending in p, l and k, and those with -m -n and ng, which is similar to Chinese endings, except for l which corresponds to -t in Chinese southern dialects.
Dyl.
Dyl.
-
AlexNg
Re: Vietnamese is sino-tibetan ?
Hoang Nhat ,
Thanks for your clear explanation. Yes, you are right, I do not know vietnamese.
But I have heard that it sounded like cantonese so I was very curious.
And I have learned through the internet that vietnamese has its origin somewhere in china. Then I was shocked to learn that it belongs to mon-khmer family.
As far as I know, mon-khmer was originally from india as they have speakers there. So there is still some doubt... and people are still debating over which group it actually belongs to.
In order for me to conclude, I would have to learn both vietnamese and mon-khmer language which would be too overwhelming.
Yes, currently, I am quite familiar with mandarin, hokkien, cantonese, malay, english and french. (not just a smattering but the actual grammar structure etc).
Thanks for your clear explanation. Yes, you are right, I do not know vietnamese.
But I have heard that it sounded like cantonese so I was very curious.
And I have learned through the internet that vietnamese has its origin somewhere in china. Then I was shocked to learn that it belongs to mon-khmer family.
As far as I know, mon-khmer was originally from india as they have speakers there. So there is still some doubt... and people are still debating over which group it actually belongs to.
In order for me to conclude, I would have to learn both vietnamese and mon-khmer language which would be too overwhelming.
Yes, currently, I am quite familiar with mandarin, hokkien, cantonese, malay, english and french. (not just a smattering but the actual grammar structure etc).