Let me quote these words that HKB posted:
hong ha(red river) hong ho(red river)
phuong huong(directions) fong heung(directions)
dia diem(place) dei dim(place)
thoi gian(time) si gan(time)
chao (morning) zao(mornin')
khong (speak) gong (speak)
nam(south) nam(south)
bac(north) bak(north)
Dylan Sung,
In the prior post you said that these words existed in the early Zhou era so those bits of vocabs are not from Vietnamese. So you basically reason at that contemporary era the Vietnamese didn't have these words because the Chinese have it??
HKB,
You use the fact that China occupy Vietnam for 1000 years to back up your claim that those are loaned words from China. So logically speaking, if a Vietnamese word pronounce like a Chinese word such as those listed vocabs, it is considered as loaned words from China but not native Vietnamese words due to the fact that China had occupied Vietnam for 1000 years?
You also wrote "But this doesn't prove that words such as "hong ha" aren't loan words from Chinese..."
............so logically speaking, words such as "hong ha", "nam", "bac", "thoi gian", "dia diem", "chao", "phuong huong" are proven that it is loan words from chinese?
Off topic question?
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HKB
Re: Off topic question?
No, I think that Dylan reasoned that these words are already in place in the chinese language before any contact between the ancestors of the vietnamese and the Zhou was made, so the language of the ancestors of the vietnamese could not have been absorbed into Chinese.
and no, the words are not considered loans words ONLY because vietnam was part of China for 1000 years, they are CHinese in origin because they are alsp backed up by archaeological evidence of a written language. Also, words like "nam", south, were adopted by nothern peoples like the Koreans. South for koreans is "nam" so if you claim that "nam" is of vietnamese origin, you're also claiming that vietnam influenced the Korean language in some ways. I'm sure the Koreans would disagree with that strongly.
the word "vietnam" itself is Chinese "yuetnam". yuet-beyond, nam-south. it means "beyond the south", south of Guangdong (canton) and guangxi (southermost regions of china). Would the vietnamese people name their own nation "beyond south"? if they did they must be not very patriotic to their own country. No, the Chinese named vietnam with their own language.
and no, the words are not considered loans words ONLY because vietnam was part of China for 1000 years, they are CHinese in origin because they are alsp backed up by archaeological evidence of a written language. Also, words like "nam", south, were adopted by nothern peoples like the Koreans. South for koreans is "nam" so if you claim that "nam" is of vietnamese origin, you're also claiming that vietnam influenced the Korean language in some ways. I'm sure the Koreans would disagree with that strongly.
the word "vietnam" itself is Chinese "yuetnam". yuet-beyond, nam-south. it means "beyond the south", south of Guangdong (canton) and guangxi (southermost regions of china). Would the vietnamese people name their own nation "beyond south"? if they did they must be not very patriotic to their own country. No, the Chinese named vietnam with their own language.
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Hung Dao Dai Vuong
Re: Off topic question?
You use archeological evidence to back your point that those words are of chinese origin and since the vietnamese don't have the physical evidence like the chinese do then it is proven that those words are of chinese origin? I disagree with that kind of logics!
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KP
Re: Off topic question?
Yes, I was not refuting any claims that Cantonese sounds closer than Mandarin to ancient Chinese.
The point is that the Chinese did not teach the Vietnamese their first language. The Vietnamese already had a language, which survived through 1000 years of Chinese occupation. The Chinese even tried to replace the Vietnamese language with one of their own, which obviously did not last.
I will not deny that Chinese language has contributed many words to the Vietnamese language. However, you must also realize that Cantonese itself must have changed over the years. This is just my theory, but there are Mandarin words such as Huang Di or surname Liu, which are Hoang De and Lu'u in Vietnamese. But in Cantonese, they become Wong Dai and Lau. What does this say other than that Cantonese words have changed dramatically over time?
So this arguement may refute yours:
"plus, if a language has a written word and an original pronunciation of it already a long time ago, why would it adopt a different pronunciation of it from another language much later? the sound of the word might change through time but it wouldn't be totally replaced by a different sound. only languages that had no or relatively subordinate written systems get their words completely replaced"
This one has flaws as well:
"the word "vietnam" itself is Chinese "yuetnam". yuet-beyond, nam-south. it means "beyond the south", south of Guangdong (canton) and guangxi (southermost regions of china). Would the vietnamese people name their own nation "beyond south"? if they did they must be not very patriotic to their own country. No, the Chinese named vietnam with their own language."
Your translation of "beyond" for the words Yue/Viet must be a more contemporary concept. In ancient times Yue/Viet only referred to the peoples living in that region, or maybe as the traslation I've heard in another thread that Yue translates to "dangerous". The modern name of Viet Nam/Yue Nan/Yuet Nam only came about in the past few hundred years. Modern day Viet Nam has had a variety of names including Nam Viet/Nan Yue and Dai Viet/Tai Yue. As the term Dai Viet came about much later than Nam Viet, and Dai Viet translates to "Great Viet/Yue", we can assume that Nam Viet translates to South Viet/Yue. So with that being said, its is highly possible the Vietnamese named themselves, and did not simply adopt the "Chinese" term.
The point is that the Chinese did not teach the Vietnamese their first language. The Vietnamese already had a language, which survived through 1000 years of Chinese occupation. The Chinese even tried to replace the Vietnamese language with one of their own, which obviously did not last.
I will not deny that Chinese language has contributed many words to the Vietnamese language. However, you must also realize that Cantonese itself must have changed over the years. This is just my theory, but there are Mandarin words such as Huang Di or surname Liu, which are Hoang De and Lu'u in Vietnamese. But in Cantonese, they become Wong Dai and Lau. What does this say other than that Cantonese words have changed dramatically over time?
So this arguement may refute yours:
"plus, if a language has a written word and an original pronunciation of it already a long time ago, why would it adopt a different pronunciation of it from another language much later? the sound of the word might change through time but it wouldn't be totally replaced by a different sound. only languages that had no or relatively subordinate written systems get their words completely replaced"
This one has flaws as well:
"the word "vietnam" itself is Chinese "yuetnam". yuet-beyond, nam-south. it means "beyond the south", south of Guangdong (canton) and guangxi (southermost regions of china). Would the vietnamese people name their own nation "beyond south"? if they did they must be not very patriotic to their own country. No, the Chinese named vietnam with their own language."
Your translation of "beyond" for the words Yue/Viet must be a more contemporary concept. In ancient times Yue/Viet only referred to the peoples living in that region, or maybe as the traslation I've heard in another thread that Yue translates to "dangerous". The modern name of Viet Nam/Yue Nan/Yuet Nam only came about in the past few hundred years. Modern day Viet Nam has had a variety of names including Nam Viet/Nan Yue and Dai Viet/Tai Yue. As the term Dai Viet came about much later than Nam Viet, and Dai Viet translates to "Great Viet/Yue", we can assume that Nam Viet translates to South Viet/Yue. So with that being said, its is highly possible the Vietnamese named themselves, and did not simply adopt the "Chinese" term.
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Hung Dao Dai Vuong
Re: Off topic question?
I don't believe the word "Viet" is from China. This "Viet" is what i believe the people in the ancient time living at northern "Viet Nam" called themselves prior to the interaction with the chinese. The modern Vietnamese people is of Lac Viet origin 
KP,
what do you think the word "Van Lang" means ?
KP,
what do you think the word "Van Lang" means ?
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KP
Re: Off topic question?
Hung Dao Dai Vuong:
I believe "Van Lang" means 'land/kingdom/country' of the 'letters/characters/documents'.....which I've heard translated more meaningfully to "land of the tattooed".
The Chinese transtlation of "Van Lang" is "YeLang"......of which I have not had much luck looking up the meaning. Maybe the Chinese folks here can help us out a bit on the meaning of "YeLang".
This Chinese site here:
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/20021 ... 5631.shtml
claims that the term "YeLang" is synonymous with "ignorant and arrogant" because the people of "YeLang" once questioned which kingdom was larger....Han or Yelang? So I would assume that YeLang is not Chinese in origin, but was introduced into the Chinese language because the people of the "YeLang/Van Lang" kingdom referred to themselves by that term. This would give even more support to your claim that "Viet" is NOT Chinese in origin as well.
I believe "Van Lang" means 'land/kingdom/country' of the 'letters/characters/documents'.....which I've heard translated more meaningfully to "land of the tattooed".
The Chinese transtlation of "Van Lang" is "YeLang"......of which I have not had much luck looking up the meaning. Maybe the Chinese folks here can help us out a bit on the meaning of "YeLang".
This Chinese site here:
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/20021 ... 5631.shtml
claims that the term "YeLang" is synonymous with "ignorant and arrogant" because the people of "YeLang" once questioned which kingdom was larger....Han or Yelang? So I would assume that YeLang is not Chinese in origin, but was introduced into the Chinese language because the people of the "YeLang/Van Lang" kingdom referred to themselves by that term. This would give even more support to your claim that "Viet" is NOT Chinese in origin as well.
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Hung Dao Dai Vuong
Re: Off topic question?
KP,
this link does talk a bit about the word "Van Lang", just scroll down the page and you'll see.
http://www.viettouch.com/pre-hist/dongson_drums.html
this link does talk a bit about the word "Van Lang", just scroll down the page and you'll see.
http://www.viettouch.com/pre-hist/dongson_drums.html
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HKB
Re: Off topic question?
"The point is that the Chinese did not teach the Vietnamese their first language."
I never said they did. what I've been doing all along is to tell you that the words I posted are indeed originated in China.
Cantonese have evolved, yes, of course, all languages evolved. It's just that it's closer to classical chinese than Mandarin.
the yuet for cantonese means dangerous and is different than the yuet/viet for vietnam, which means "beyond" . If you refuse to regard archaeology as evidence then we have nothing more to talk about.
I never said they did. what I've been doing all along is to tell you that the words I posted are indeed originated in China.
Cantonese have evolved, yes, of course, all languages evolved. It's just that it's closer to classical chinese than Mandarin.
the yuet for cantonese means dangerous and is different than the yuet/viet for vietnam, which means "beyond" . If you refuse to regard archaeology as evidence then we have nothing more to talk about.
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KP
Re: Off topic question?
Hung Dao Dai Vuong:
I forgot about that, I have heard the term "Van Lang" to refer to the bird before. However, in modern Vietnamese, I believe that "van" means documents/letters/characters. So the meaning as "land of tattooed" doesn't sound to far fetched. Unless of course if "van" only took on this meaning after Chinese occupation. ^^
You are totally neglecting the point of the arguement referring to "beyond" and "dangerous". I've seen the other thread, and in there you were unable to argue it as well.
Where is this "archeological" evidence that shows the Vietnamese have referred to themselves as "beyond"? We are the "South Beyond"? We all agree that the Vietnamese have descended from the Bai Yue. Are you telling me that the "Yue" in Bai Yue means beyond? Your explanation of Cantonese Yue are in fact "dangerous" doesn't hold well........as history will tell you that the Cantonese Yue aren't nearly as dangerous as the Yue in Nothern Vietnam.
Without evidence, of course you have would have nothing more to talk about.
I forgot about that, I have heard the term "Van Lang" to refer to the bird before. However, in modern Vietnamese, I believe that "van" means documents/letters/characters. So the meaning as "land of tattooed" doesn't sound to far fetched. Unless of course if "van" only took on this meaning after Chinese occupation. ^^
You are totally neglecting the point of the arguement referring to "beyond" and "dangerous". I've seen the other thread, and in there you were unable to argue it as well.
Where is this "archeological" evidence that shows the Vietnamese have referred to themselves as "beyond"? We are the "South Beyond"? We all agree that the Vietnamese have descended from the Bai Yue. Are you telling me that the "Yue" in Bai Yue means beyond? Your explanation of Cantonese Yue are in fact "dangerous" doesn't hold well........as history will tell you that the Cantonese Yue aren't nearly as dangerous as the Yue in Nothern Vietnam.
Without evidence, of course you have would have nothing more to talk about.
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KP
Re: Off topic question?
"I never said they did. what I've been doing all along is to tell you that the words I posted are indeed originated in China.
Cantonese have evolved, yes, of course, all languages evolved. It's just that it's closer to classical chinese than Mandarin."
Again....you ignore my arguement and only repeat your first...which I have put into question.
Mandarin: Huang Di/Ti; Liu
Cantonese: Wong Dai; Lau
Vietnamese: Hoang De; Lu'u
So are you telling me that it is impossible that in a few instances such as these that Cantonese has strayed from the ancient Chinese pronunciations?
Cantonese have evolved, yes, of course, all languages evolved. It's just that it's closer to classical chinese than Mandarin."
Again....you ignore my arguement and only repeat your first...which I have put into question.
Mandarin: Huang Di/Ti; Liu
Cantonese: Wong Dai; Lau
Vietnamese: Hoang De; Lu'u
So are you telling me that it is impossible that in a few instances such as these that Cantonese has strayed from the ancient Chinese pronunciations?