"ruffian"

[SimL]

Hi Niuc,

Another term in connection with this topic is "phaiN2-lang5-tong2" = a "gang" (of robbers, thieves, extortionists, thugs, etc). This is the only context where I use the word "tong2" in Hokkien, so I was quite surprised during the weekend when I found out that it's just "黨/党", a word I had learnt in Mandarin class, for "Labour Party", "Communist Party", "Republican Party", "Democratic Party", etc.

I would never has associated these two concepts ("gang" and "political party"), if it hadn't been for the fact that the character to write them are the same. Perhaps Chinese is expressing a deep seated cynicism about political parties, which - in the light of the scandal with the British Lower House - might be considered quite appropriate !

SimL.

[niuc]

Hi Sim

Sorry for this late response. In my variant, 黨 'tong2' can mean a group of people and be used as a classifier. E.g. people going out for camping or outdoor activities can be divided into several 'tong2'/group -> 分做兩黨 'pun1/hun1-cue3 nng7-tong2' (devided into two groups) etc.

Although in my variant it may be not as "negative" as in yours, nevertheless it still has negative connotation e.g. 結黨 'kiat4-tong2' is not simply "forming a group" but also implies exclusivity and separation against unity. Hokkien does have a saying: 官絲黏[][] 'kua*1-si1 liam5-thi1-thi1' (the silk/garment of government official is very sticky). May be this kind of cynicism is the reason why there are comparatively fewer Hokkiens pursuing a political career. Don't you think so?

[SimL]

Hi Niuc,

We're all busy with our lives outside the Minnan Forum, so no problem! Thanks for replying.

Yes, I think Chinese in general are quite cynical about politics. I've been reading a lot of Chinese history lately (in English!), and it's really saddening to see all the terrible things which the emperors and empresses got away with in the old days: falsely accusing people in show trials and having them executed, or not even bothering to do that, but having them assassinated, and then inventing a totally implausible cover-up story.

Nice to see the 'liam5-thi1-thi1'. Hokkien is so full of these <adjective>+<X><X>, where <X> is specifically for a particular adjective. They make the language very colourful: 'nua7-ko5-ko5' = 'awfully mushy, rotted-away' is one which comes to mind, to match 'liam5-thi1-thi1'. Someone should compile an extensive list of them. Perhaps I'll start building up a list now, and post it in the next few months.

SimL

[SimL]

...
地痞 (Twinbridge): di4 pi3 "local ruffian/riffraff"
流氓 (Twinbridge): liu2 mang2 "hoodlum, hooligan, gangster"
地痞流氓 (Far Eastern Chinese-English Dictionary): di4 pi3 liu2 mang2 "local bullies and loafers"
...

I'm afraid I think I'm on the wrong track with these hanzi for "phue-liu-a". The site which I use most for checking Hokkien pronunciation of hanzi (http://www.internationalscientific.org) gives "phai2 phaiN2 phi2" for 痞, no "phe" or "phue". Similarly it gives "lau5 liu5" for 流, which would give "tone-7" in non-final position, which is then different from "phue-liu-a", which has the sandhied tone "liu1" in PgHk, which could not possibly be from "liu5". Similar remarks apply for the tone of the first syllable.

I often use tone as a 'sanity check' for whether a particular hanzi could be the right one for a particular syllable. If the sound itself is a bit different (like "phe/phue" above vs. "phai" etc), then I'm a bit doubtful, but still willing to consider the difference as "regional variation". But if both the tone and the sound are different, then it makes me totally doubtful, or I reject the hanzi.

Perhaps "phue-liu" are just non-Han syllables.

SimL

[niuc]

Hi Sim

Power tends to corrupt. Those in power more often than not did abuse their power. And they were often neurotic. Indeed 伴君如伴虎 "Accompanying one's sovereign can be like accompanying a tiger".

Yes, I like the reduplicated adverbs also. If not mistaken, there was once a list in this forum. And there can be more than one set for an adjective, especially for colours, e.g. 'ang5-ki1-ki1', 'ang5-kong3-kong3', 'ang5-pha*3-pha*3' all have different emphases. May be better to save it for that thread

About "phue-liu", in mine is pronounced 'pher5-liu1' (sandhi: 'pher3_liu1')... considering 頑皮 'ban5-pher5 (naughty & stubborn), also 皮 pher5/phi5 can be used as adjective to mean the same (may be abbreviation), may be 皮 is the first hanzi here. Based on the sound 'liu1', although doubtful, it may be 溜 (adj: smooth/slippery -> 滑溜 kut8-liu1; verb: to run/slip away). So just wondering if it could be 皮溜 of any possibility... but searching it in internet, it is a place name and seems to suggest some other meaning. Hopefully someone will tell us more information.

[ponnai]

There is of course also 'sam3-seng1' (sam written with sandhi-tone), which has been borrowed into Malay. Again, here, I wouldn't be very confident to say what the precise difference between 'sam3-seng1' and the other three are.