Pronouncing "ch"

[Helmut]

Maybe someone can help me with the following Cantonese
pronunciation problem.
It seems that there are two different ways to pronounce
the initial consonant "ch" (Yale romanisation),
depending on the following vowel. One is like 'ts' (as
in 'ants' in English), e.g. "chin(2)" = 'money'. The
other is more like 'tsh' (like in 'church'), e.g.
"chyun(4)" = 'whole'.
The same seems to apply to the consonant "j".
I found this pattern mentioned nowhere except in two
Cantonese grammar books by V.Yip/S.Matthews (both from
Routledge). But even there it is only mentioned and
not clearly listed when to use which version. To top
it, a native Cantonese speaker which I asked,
contradicted some of what was written.
So does anyone know what the rules are, i.e. when to
use which version?
Does it depend on who is talking and if so, how?
The mentioned books said, a similar rule applies to
"s" changing from 's' to 'sh'. Others plainly disagree.
What is true?

[Simon]

I'm from Hong Kong, and I pronounce all the "ch"'s as ts, all the "j"'s as dz, and all the s's as s. But I have heard other people from Hong Kong pronounce words according to the pattern you described. There are slight variations like that in Hong Kong Cantonese. Like some people would pronounce words with an "ng" consonant at the beginning of a syllable, while some leave it out. And more and more, some words that used to start with an "n" now start with an "l." You get this kind of thing in most languages. I think people will understand you either way.

[Eugene Morrow]

Helmut,
The FSI tape course I am using does describe some differences in pronunciation of the consonants you mention. I am not yet expert enough to describe them, and I do not have my FSI workbook here at work (it would be difficult to spend a lot of time on this at work).
Later, when I have finished the FSI course I will see if I can find the pages that precisely discuss this (there are hundreds of pages of notes). So this is a promise I will answer the question from the FSI perspective later. Perhaps someone else who also has the FSI course might answer sooner.
Eugene

[xinghua]

I know what you mean, there doesn't seem to be any real standard. One of my friends from Guangzhou pronounces it with a definate ch sound but some of my friends ( Chinese Vietnamese and Hongkies) pronounce as ts (mandarin c). I think that the difference is more a matter of aspiration; if you aspirate ts hard enough it basically becomes ch. Basically I pronounce all ch preceding i or e as ch and in most other positions as ts. The idea is that i and e sound will often influence the pronunciation of the initial ( this is also seen in the s/sh variance although only some people bother with it). The best thing to do is to talk with a friend who speaks Cantonese and just copy their accent. They'll be the person your most likely to talk to anyway and they're less likely to criticise your accent if its the same as theirs

[Helmut]

Thanks ! I am looking forward to that.
Helmut

[Helmut]

Thanks for your views on the problem.
Actually, just as you propose, I do model my pronounciation after native speakers. They come from HK and they do make the difference which I described. So comparing that to what you said, it seems that even in a geographically small place like HK, there are different ways how to pronounce initial "ch", "j", "ng", "n", "s".
That alone would not be special if not for the fact that noone seems to have the feeling that one way is standard and the other is slang, dialect, ...
That is what really puzzles me, as I cannot find such a thing in any (western) language I know. Any such sound difference would be attributed to different dialects or at least to usage in geographically separated areas (e.g. european and american Spanish).
It just seems that there is no perceived way of standard Cantonese pronounciation, even on a local scale. I put this item on my list of special difficulties of Cantonese. This is going to be fun !