Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

[Andrew]

The dictionaries that I used are from world renowned HK university and UCLA university and another best selling taiwanese dictionary, I am sure they have better researchers than those I haven't heard of such as barclay.

Oh dear.

In any case, lui is definitely Dutch via Malay - it is in Barclay (1923) but not in Douglas (1873), and Barclay includes one of the phrases as "sù-kú-lui", 1/4 cent. No-one here, except Loono, is arguing that it is a Chinese word.

You seem to forget that Hokkien, cantonese and mandarin all come from the same root written language (except for loan words). The beauty of chinese language is that each chinese character has an intrinsic meaning.

What is the intrinsic meaning of the following characters?

萬

來

無

[Ah-bin]

I am sure they have better researchers than those I haven't heard of such as barclay.

Oh dear oh dear.... Lú siá án-ne-khoán kā-liáu forum ê lâng khoàⁿ liáu tō TSC (tōa-siaⁿ chhiò = LOL)

The dictionaries that I used are from world renowned HK university and UCLA university and another best selling taiwanese dictionary,

Names please..... UCLA...you mean the website? That's a website, not a proper dictionary.

You seem to forget that Hokkien, cantonese and mandarin all come from the same root written language (except for loan words). The beauty of chinese language is that each chinese character has an intrinsic meaning.

No spoken language "comes from" any script. "Written language" is just a less accurate way to express "script". "Chinese language" doesn't mean the same thing as "Chinese script". The languages can exist separately from the script. Xng, writing this sort of thing just shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Come back and talk about this after you have spent a while looking at the readings here:

http://www.pinyin.info/

Then you can have an intellegent discussion.

[xng]

Sorry, I don't argue with someone who is sarcastic , unintelligent, highly inflated ego and just plain stubborn! This is the first time I hear that written and spoken language can have different meaning, ucla is not a dictionary but a website etc.

Case closed. I will not be replying to you anymore, Ah Bin !

You guys can still fool yourself that those are hokkien words but most people in china and taiwan won't understand what you are saying. So your so-called hokkien words are indeed quite 'hokkien'.

[SimL]

Hi xng,

Please don't get upset about this issue.

I think (as Andrew also pointed out) practically everyone except tangoloonokongo also thinks most of these are Malay words (either really native, or borrowed from Dutch, Sanskrit, etc), borrowed into Malayan/Singaporean Hokkien, and that some of them then got taken back to the Chinese mainland and/or Taiwan (the few ones which Mainlanders or Taiwanese recognize, and which are sometimes quoted as 'evidence' that they are native sinitic words). Aokh remains perhaps slightly more open about the possibilty of them being borrowed in the other direction, but not in a dogmatic way (which I think is fine).

The main area where I disagree with you is that you perceive my attachment to Malay or English loan words as a "refusal to change back to the original". It's not that at all. I've tried to explain this a number of times, I'll do it one more time. I speak a particular variety of Hokkien called Penang Hokkien. That variety has a number of Malay loanwords, I use them because they are the natural words in that variety. When I speak to Taiwanese, I should be conscious that these are not known to them, and I should learn the words which they use, and use those. Taiwanese too have Japanese loan words in their Taiwanese. They use them because they are the natural words in that variety. When they speak to me, they should be conscious that these are not known to me, and they should try and avoid using them. Alternatively, I could be open, and try and learn the Japanese loanwords and they could be open and learn the Malay loanwords. Not to use them in my/their own everyday conversations (that would be ridiculous), but in order be able to understand the other party, when the other party is speaking in a 'natural way'.

You are very attached to a model where there is a "true", "proper" form of a language. This position is a well known one, and is subscribed to by 99% of the human population. But linguists and lay people genuinely interested in language have for the last 50 years developed the "descriptive" model, where one looks at how a language is used, by people who really use it, and then try to analyse that (which is complex and fascinating enough), instead of spending their energy telling the speakers that this or that form is 'wrong'.

I wrote several months back that I thought that being a "purist/prescriptivist" vs. being a "descriptivist" is probably just a deeply ingrained personality trait, and no amount of discussion is going to change that. My repeating the same old ideas and arguments here is not to try and change you, but to try to give you some insight into the contrasts between my position and yours.

[xng]

Hi xng,

I speak a particular variety of Hokkien called Penang Hokkien. That variety has a number of Malay loanwords, I use them because they are the natural words in that variety.

Your argument is flawed. In Msia/Singapore, most people ie. 98% don't know that they are using Malay loanwords unless they have been to China/Taiwan or seen my list in internet forum as you guys have.

If you don't believe me, just stop any stranger or friend and ask them to analyse their sentences and identify which are malay words , I am sure they will tell you they are ALL hokkien words. Then when you ask them, what is the equivalent hokkien word for that malay word, they will not know ! That's the danger of using malay words when it is passed through many generations, they don't know the original word.

The same situation happened with me until I mix around with China people and watch taiwanese shows.

Eg. in Penang, they say 'batu' for rock but in Klang, they still maintain the original saying 'cio tau'. How are the Penang hokkien going to communicate with the Klang hokkien effectively ? So isn't it better to say the original hokkien version ?

English loanwords are different because they are more easily identified eg. aunty, uncle. Taiwanese uses some japanese words but they are very, very minimal eg. japanese equivalent to aunty, uncle. They are much, much less than the malay loanwords in Penang.

Furthermore, in Malaysia, there are many Malay educated chinese who throws in too many English words into their hokkien or cantonese that it is not considered hokkien or cantonese anymore but rather Hokglish/cantoglish. Believe me, I've seen many of these people in real life.

They are subconsiously using 60% english, 10% malay, 30% hokkien. They are essentially using English vocabulary with chinese grammar and some hokkien words thrown in to make the grammar simpler.

[aokh1979]

I am not trying to argue, but I just want to share some life experience. I may not make any sense to any of you, do not believe, if you do not agree, it's up to you.

I grew up in Penang. So far, I never met anyone who could not differentiate Malay loanwords from daily conversation, I don't mean every word, of course but at least daily words like "batu", "suka", "sampai", "tapi", "kelam-kabut", "bangku", "lorong", etc. So far, I never met any. Take the example of "batu", there's a famous temple in Jelutong (a place known to every Penangite) called Tsioh Thau Kong Bio, the Temple of Stone Master. Everyone I know, knows "batu" = "tsioh thau", including young friends.

There was a Hokkien show in KL Performing Arts Centre last week. The show was directed and played by a group of Penangites plus 1 Malaccan. The show was completely in Penang Hokkien, with lots of Malay loanwords and very limited English words. I made the entrance announcement in Hokkien. I brought almost all of my Penang and Klang friends who live in KL to watch it. They understood it completely except a few lines spoken by the Malaccan guy in his own variant.

I fully agree that more loanwords are going to kill our language but my criteria on Penang Hokkien is, every loanword I use must be understood by my deceased grandmother. If she used "batu", then "batu" is in my variant. She did not know "but" so I have to say "tapi" or "tan si". However, I am not about to replace "batu" to "tsioh thau" but I know, when I meet a Taiwanese or anyone from Klang who doesn't know what "batu" is, I will explain to them.

Unless our language is 60% full of loanwords (which I do not refer to recent young people who speak with an influx of English words) then it's different story. Right now, I personally think it's a matter of American English and British English. I live in Xiamen for 8 years now, I know I never have to force myself to change the way I speak, but to pick up new words from locals when they speak. If you have been to Xiamen or Zhangzhou or Quanzhou, you may be surprised that even locals (my young friends in their 20s) know what "tongkat" is.

[SimL]

Hi aokh,

Thank you for such a well thought-out and carefully worded reply.

I've never been exposed to the "massive amount of English borrowings" of (apparently) some of the younger generation (probably because I left Penang too long ago). I have to admit that even my so-called "non-prescriptivist" position might be sorely tested if I came across someone using 60% English words in his/her Hokkien !

When I speak Hokkien, I use lots and lots of English words for all the more "abstract" and "educated" concepts (like "politics", or "economy" or "elections" or "classical music"), but I too don't see these as really 'belonging' to Penang Hokkien, only as things which I have to resort to because I don't know native Hokkien words (in contrast to the Malay words you gave, which I also see as being very well integrated into - and an essential part of - Penang Hokkien). I liked your "grandmother-criterion" for deciding whether to use a word or not (which means, I guess, that I'm a sort of purist in my own way - I like the language as my grandparents spoke it!). My studying Mandarin helps me 'lose' some English words, because where the educated Hokkien term matches the Mandarin term, I can profit from having learnt the Mandarin term.

[xng]

because I don't know native Hokkien words

Precisely, it was because in the past, the English/malay educated chinese were the majority and that's why malay and english words creeped into the language 'quietly'. But nowadays, due to internet and cable TV which allow us to watch Taiwanese shows/songs and learn more hokkien words, there is absolutely no excuse to continue using these malay words.

Let me summarise the different groups of 'rojak hokkien'.

Fujian province (100% hokkien) ->
Southern malaya/Singapore (60% hokkien, 10% malay, 30% English)->
Northern malaya (50% hokkien, 20% malay, 30% English) ->
Baba/nyonya (10% hokkien, 60% malay, 30% English)

The longer you stay disconnected from the root (without chinese education), the more you lose the original words.

[aokh1979]

Hi xng:

This is my personal thought. You're right, we have more exposure to Taiwan TV series with Japanese loanwords now. We will continue to watch it, my family will, I will, most of my friends who subscribe Hua Hee Dai in Malaysia will. If we pick up words from Taiwan and use it in daily conversation, it will then naturally become part of our Hokkien. Again, it will have to happen naturally, not forcefully. I am not about to change the way I speak my 1st language, but if I come across interesting words from Taiwan TV, I believe I will start using them. Do not push me to absorb and say good-bye immediately to my "root" in Penang. Thank you.

PS: And one day, when you realise Hokkiens (based on those I have met in China for the past 8 years) in China do not know how to express "struggle", "waste", "movie" in the "100%-pure" Hokkien because they're heavily used to using Mandarin words directly, do advise me if I should drop those I learn from Penang and follow China.

[amhoanna]

Another word to consider: ka'ia̍h vs kaya (Melayu).

(ka1-iah8 ... tone mark not showing)

台日大 defines ka'ia̍h as 真鬧热
白話小 has it as 生意興隆 (in Mand)

本字 given by both as 交易, ditto on 台華綫頂.

[amhoanna]

Another word to consider: ka'ia̍h vs kaya (Melayu).

(ka1-iah8 ... tone mark not showing)

台日大 defines ka'ia̍h as 真鬧热
白話小 has it as 生意興隆 (in Mand)

本字 given by both as 交易, ditto on 台華綫頂.


(Khihhō͘ pùnsò kóngkò.khàm tiāu..a.)

[niuc]

In Bagan variant, ka1-ia8 has 2 meanings:
1. rich or good business -> from Malay: kaya (rich/abundant).
2. coconut jam / "kaya" jam -> Malay: kaya, also seri-kaya in Malaysia, but srikaya (Indonesian spelling) in Indonesia is sugar-apple.

[SimL]

Hi niuc,

In Australia, it's sometimes called "egg jam" but I've always thought that the name doesn't make it sound very appealing. "Coconut jam" sounds a lot nicer.

Found this on Wikipedia; it's even got a reference to Hokkien, and a transcription in Chinese characters!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_jam.

[niuc]

Hi Sim

In Singapore so far I have never heard people call it coconut jam, only "kaya". And actually I didn't know the term, I searched wikipedia using "kaya" then got the term!

May be in SE Asia it is written as 咖吔, I am not sure. However "ka-iā" seems to be 'ka1-ia7'... then it is slightly different from Bagan 'ka1-ia8'. Here people pronounce it the same way as Bagan variant. How do you say it in Penang?

[SimL]

However "ka-iā" seems to be 'ka1-ia7'... then it is slightly different from Bagan 'ka1-ia8'. Here people pronounce it the same way as Bagan variant. How do you say it in Penang?

Hi niuc,

I pronounce it "ka3/7-ya1".

Notes:
1. Pseudo-sandhi on the first syllable - I don't distinguish 3 from 7.
2. I don't have a ru-tone on the second syllable.
3. I have "ya" rather than "ia" on the second syllable. To me, a Hokkien "ia" begins with a very light glottal stop (as in German, but a lighter one) - for example, the way I say "wild" is "ia2" (i.e. with a very light initial glottal stop, IPA [ʔ]) - whereas when I write "ya", I am trying to convey the fact that I begin this syllable (in ka-ya) with a continuant . This is the same distinction as between the words "ear" [ʔiə(r)] and "year" [jiə(r)] in some varieties of English.