Benzi/Original character

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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xng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by xng »

By the way, I looked at your previous posts.

氣徦挴死 - K'i Ka Bay si

挴 is not pronounced as 'bay' but 'mui' as in 每, so this can't be the original character.

Bay is 卜 in the ucla website.

bok7 ⦋例⦌ 占卜 ⦋同音字⦌ 樸濮獛纀襮蹼轐駁鳪
me7 閩南語用字。相當於「要、想要、就要」。

http://solution.cs.ucla.edu/~jinbo/dzl/lookup.php

Although I have some doubts over this, as the meaning of 卜 is 'prophesy' unless there is another meaning in classical chinese. Only classical chinese text can confirm or refute a theory.

xng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by xng »

aokh

Do you have other comments regarding the list on page 1 ? Please reread the page.

I am still trying to find the original character for 刣 T'ai, as it is very perplexing.

aokh1979
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by aokh1979 »

Hi xng:

Well, 挴 may not be the right word, you're right, though this is what I use now, instead of 欲 or 卜, let me tell you why I chose it.

From《康熙字典》
挴,《唐韻》武罪切《玉篇》莫攺切《集韻》母罪切,𠀤音每。《揚子•方言》貪也。《史記•賈誼服賦》品庶馮生。《註》索隱曰:漢書作每生。按方言每字合從手旁,音謀攺反。《楚辭•天問》𥠇王巧挴,夫何周流。

Let's look at the pronunciation, 武罪切 should bu 武陰上 and chue 罪陰去 in my variant. So 挴 should be a 陰去 sound with b and ue. That's completely how I read. And if you look at 罪 itself, it serves both ue and e in various accents. So 挴 can be bue or be. Right ?

Now look at the meaning. From 《揚子•方言》貪也 to analyse. Is 貪 not related to desire ?

And if you refer to http://taigu.org/, 陳冠學 from Taiwan says it should be 每. And that kind of matches with what I found. I dunno how 挴 became mui in some websites, do you have any idea ?

All below are used today……
卜: I seriously doubt it, neither pronunciation nor meaning matches “want”
欲: A big no-no, though I know it’s the most commonly understood word but, too hard for me
每: Well, 陳冠學 points out some classic Chinese to support, I use 挴 to distinguish from modern 每

I have been busy these few months but I want to take a few days off, sit down and jot down everything I found. I will go through the pages you mentioned. We can discuss more.

PS: Are you a native Chinese user ?

aokh1979
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by aokh1979 »

Regarding 佮, your point makes sense that it may really has a 入聲 although I never pronounce it that way. Also, as I observe here in Xiamen, I meet people from all over the province, but I never hear anyone saying it with a 入聲 too, not just overseas. :lol:

Taiwan pop songs use more nonsensual characters than I can remember. I dun have an answer but all my theories are based on how my grandmother reads. She does not speak Mandarin, and she does not read Chinese.

Also a small note on "suka" that you brought up. I dunno if you realise that "suka" does come with a 入聲 when Penangites read it ? It’s not 100% the same as Malay "suka" but everyone I know, including myself, say "sukah" with glottal stop. Thus, whether or not it originates from Malay, I keep an open mind. Another one for you, "celaka" with 入聲 again is surprisingly understood in some areas in 泉州, not city, but rural districts.

xng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by xng »

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Last edited by xng on Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

xng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by xng »

aokh1979 wrote:Hi xng:

All below are used today……
卜: I seriously doubt it, neither pronunciation nor meaning matches “want”
欲: A big no-no, though I know it’s the most commonly understood word but, too hard for me
每: Well, 陳冠學 points out some classic Chinese to support, I use 挴 to distinguish from modern 每

I have been busy these few months but I want to take a few days off, sit down and jot down everything I found. I will go through the pages you mentioned. We can discuss more.

PS: Are you a native Chinese user ?
挴: is possible but not definite as it takes on the sound of 每. 每 in zhangzhou is pronounced as Mui and not May or Muei. I would like some classic chinese example to support this character as the original character.

卜: The sound is correct but the meaning is doubtful.

欲: This is a borrowed character for its meaning only as nobody seems to agree on the original character yet. The sound is incorrect ie.Iok.

aokh1979
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by aokh1979 »

Can you please provide some facts of 其 being khoi in Cantonese ? I have not come across any confirmation that this is the real character. Please help me to understand. Thanx.

Also, as you mention 卜 has the right pronunciation. Can you share with me ? Let's make sure that we do not extract from any dictionary, but instead with classic Chinese to support. I have a few distionaries but they are not 100% full-proof. Also, if it's 文白異讀, then there should be a "standard conversion", any other character with the same pok against be to support it ? I see people use 卜 too but I am still trying to convince myself, hope you can save me...... :P

Do you know Ikan Parang ? How do you call it in Hokkien ?

xng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by xng »

aokh1979 wrote:Can you please provide some facts of 其 being khoi in Cantonese ? I have not come across any confirmation that this is the real character. Please help me to understand. Thanx.

Also, as you mention 卜 has the right pronunciation. Can you share with me ? Let's make sure that we do not extract from any dictionary, but instead with classic Chinese to support. I have a few distionaries but they are not 100% full-proof. Also, if it's 文白異讀, then there should be a "standard conversion", any other character with the same pok against be to support it ? I see people use 卜 too but I am still trying to convince myself, hope you can save me...... :P

Do you know Ikan Parang ? How do you call it in Hokkien ?
1. In classical chinese, 其 is used as the third person (he/she), cantonese pronounce he/she as K'ui instead of K'ei. The vowel and tone has changed from the original but it is close enough to know that it originates from 其. The same thing is true of other cantonese character such as 來 which is pronounced as "Lai" instead of "Lei". There is a vowel change here.

2. As for卜, I can only quote ucla website but it doesn't give any classical chinese example, so I am still doubtful on this. That's why I haven't put this character in the list on page 1. 卜 is pronounced as a glottal stop in ucla website.

The meaning doesn't 100% match. 'Greed' is not exactly the same as 'want' but the meaning could have changed slightly from Old Chinese.

There seems to be some dispute on the exact sound of 挴 as it is different in different dictionary.
Furthermore, 挴 doesn't have a glottal stop.

We don't have any conclusion yet. If you can give a classical chinese text that uses either character, then that character is confirmed.

xng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by xng »

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Last edited by xng on Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

xng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by xng »

http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/%E9%97%BD ... 7%E8%AF%AD

之(TSit):明代以前的中文,主要以「之」表普通話的「這」[15],這要念en5。可追溯到《詩經》:「之子於歸」(這小孩出嫁)


Before ming dynasty, 之 is used to represent 'this'.

xng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by xng »

aokh1979 wrote:Hi xng:

That is basically what I use as "and" now. But I am not very sure if 佮 is the 本字, let me share with you why I doubt.

If we try to relate to 文白異讀 in Hokkien, we will find that many 文讀 with ao or iao match with a in 白讀, like: 教, 骹, 較, 撽, 鉸, 孢, 撓, 炒, 鬧 and so on...... Some people even say 樵 is the actual word for cha 柴. Would ka actually be a kao or kiao in 文讀 ? I am just not sure, but 佮 is indeed what I use today.
aokh,

I must apologise !! 佮 is the wrong character, the original character should be 共 'Kann' (the final nasal sound is somehow lost or very faint other examples are 青 also has very faint nasal sound or lost)

I remember listening to a lot of cantonese love songs that use 我共你 :lol: that is also used in classical chinese instead of Mandarin 我和你.

樵 has a closer sound than 柴. I just saw a taiwanese hokkien show where the actor pronounced woodcutter 樵夫as C'a Hu.

焦 - Ta has the same vowel as 樵

柴 should be pronounced as C'ay eg. 買 is Bay where mandarin is Mai, cantonese is maai.

Therefore C'ai in mandarin/C'aai in cantonese should be C'ay in hokkien and not C'a.

aokh1979
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by aokh1979 »

共 might make sense. But do make sure we all have a right logic when it comes to looking for the "correct" or "reasonable" character. Characters are invented to record what we speak, so...... Using 共 or 佮 or even 及 to record "and", should all work well. Of course 佮 seems a little strange to most people...... Hm......

xng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by xng »

aokh1979 wrote:共 might make sense. But do make sure we all have a right logic when it comes to looking for the "correct" or "reasonable" character. Characters are invented to record what we speak, so...... Using 共 or 佮 or even 及 to record "and", should all work well. Of course 佮 seems a little strange to most people...... Hm......
佮 - Tone is wrong.

及 - Pronounced Kip and not Ka.

共 - Tone is right and meaning is correct except for missing nasal ending. But this is common in other characters. Classical chinese use quite a lot of 共.

aokh1979
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by aokh1979 »

I still dun have an answer to that, but I know characters are invented to record what we speak. I guess dictionaries are just references. 共 does make sense, of course.

及 is pronounced khap in Cantonese though, and it does carry "and" meaning today in Mandarin. There are more common characters that we accept change of tone like 雨, 想 and so on. I think 及 can be another candidate, 佮 is less common...... ^^

xng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by xng »

aokh1979 wrote:I

及 is pronounced khap in Cantonese though, and it does carry "and" meaning today in Mandarin.
Most vowel with 'i' in hokkien ends with 'a' in standard cantonese eg. 新 'San' whereas hakka, hokkien, mandarin pronounce as 'Sin'.

But non standard cantonese eg. taishanese pronounce it closer to hokkien ie. preserve the 'i' vowel. So the original middle chinese sound is 'Kip' or 'Khip' and not 'Khap'.

This can be seen in taishanese, hakka and hokkien so 及 is definitely not the correct character due to its sound and also entering tone .

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