Hoklo in the Bisayas: comments on the archives

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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amhoanna
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Hoklo in the Bisayas: comments on the archives

Post by amhoanna »

Cit cōa thó-lūn (THIS THREAD) sī beh lâi thó-lūn ci̍t-kóa Hui-li̍p-pin Hok-kiàn-ōe iûkî Siok-bū Hok-kiàn-ōe ê te̍k-sek. Cûiⁿ cām-á, FUTURESPY su-té-hā tī pa̍t-ūi ū the̍h-tio̍h ci̍t-kóa Siok-bū Hok-kiàn-ōe ê tóng-àn. Ciàu-kóng, hiah-ê tóng-àn i bē-ēng-tit tiàm cia hun-hióng. Cóng--sī ce thó-lūn ê pō͘-hūn góa ti̍t-ciap tiàm cia lâi cìn-hêng, lâi tián-khui.

A few things first.

First, the more I hear of Phils Hokkien, the more it strikes me how incredibly similar it is to TWese on two fronts: vocab. and grammar.

Second, the tone differences might be revealing. On T1, T2, T3, T4, and arguably T6 too, the standing (citation) tone value in "Mainstream Philippines Hoklo" (MPH) is the same as the running ("sandhi'd") tone value in "Mainstream Taiwanese Hoklo" (MTH). Yet there are some contexts where the tone value is the same in both dialects. What I mean is, U'll have a sentence where, in MPH, the citation tone is used on a certain syllable; and in MTH, the running tone is used on the same corresponding syllable. The result is that the same tone contour is used on that syllable in both versions (in the two dialects).

This kind of comparison is easy with MPH vs MTH b/c so many structures, words, and expressions are almost identical btw the two... Whereas Penang Hokkien is way different.

One of the theories I wanna "get at" is that a lot of cross-dialectal bleeding, such as a merger of two tonal systems, has taken place, not just in the Phils, but even in TW. Kids would've heard speakers in two different tonal systems. They would've picked up a mixed tonal system, and then found new ways to interpret the "data" and formulate "tonal rules".

As any non-native Hokkien learner knows, the devil of learning Hokkien is in the details of the tone rules. Esp. (I suspect) in the non-creolized dialects.

Another thing I notice, though, is that MPH is more in line with General Sinitic and Written Chinese.

In this thread, I will number each observation (U'll see) for "ease of reference". :mrgreen:

Here we go.

#1 She (the speaker) generally drops her nasalization.

#2 "Ông siansíⁿ, lí teh khòaⁿ--siáⁿ?"
The first three syllables are running, running, citation. In TW it would be citation, light+low, light+low.

The last two syllables are high+falling, light+low -- exactly how a lot of TWese say it! In the MPH system, this is clearly analyzable as citation, light+low. In TWese, though, T3 is only high+falling when running; but if it runs, then the following syllable "generally" must be citation.* To "solve" the data, TWese analyze the final, light+low syllable as being citation T4. Thus, "khòaⁿ siaⁿh". But this may be "artificial". It may really just be citation, light+low, and "borrowed" in its exact contours from a dialect with Coanciu tone (e.g. MPH) ... into a dialect with Ciangciu tone (e.g. MTH).

amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo in the Bisayas: comments on the archives

Post by amhoanna »

Ta̍kgê hó, góa lâi kèsio̍k. Sorry if it feels a little like dumping. I really intend to discuss these things with FutureSpy and everyone else.

Just so this thread doesn't get crazy, if U want to discuss any specific point in it, it might be good to start another thread just for that. But, that is "forum style" and no doubt up to each individual.


#3 "Góa leh khòaⁿ pòcóa."
That "g" doesn't sound like it's really there. Also, its tone contour is high+flat -- just as it would be in TW Hokkien. The MTH (Mainstream Taiwanese Hoklo) mind "analyzes" it as being running T2. The MPH mind must analyze it as citation T2.

This is interesting when we consider the differences between TW and Penang, for instance, of when to stand/cite and when to run /sandhi.

#4 "Hit pún cheh--nih?"
In TW the equivalent final particle would be “le”, light+high. (Not what I would consider 軽聲 /khinsiaⁿ, in MTH anyway. In MTH there are two kinds of khinsiann, one light+low, the other light+level @ the pitch level that the previous syllable ended at.)

FutureSpy
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Re: Hoklo in the Bisayas: comments on the archives

Post by FutureSpy »

amhoanna, chin hoaⁿ-hí lí ū hoat-piáu chit-kōa ê thó-lūn, chin to-siā. After an one month and a half break from Hokkien classes because of finals and re-tests, I'm resuming classes with my teacher today. But oh well, I won't bring up my off-topic bullsh*t to this thread :mrgreen:
amhoanna wrote:What I mean is, U'll have a sentence where, in MPH, the citation tone is used on a certain syllable; and in MTH, the running tone is used on the same corresponding syllable.
So the running tones numbering in every sentence on Maryknoll textbooks only work for Taiwanese, right?

As for citation tones, according to "Lán-lâng-oē" article from Wikipedia, the tones are exactly as those from Choân-chiu:
1: 33
2: 55
3/7: 41
4: 5
5: 24
6: 22
8: 24
How likely is that to be true, given Pinoy Hokkien is also a mix of Choân-chiu and Chiang-chiu?
amhoanna wrote:#4 "Hit pún cheh--nih?"
For some reason, she sometimes uses --nih, and sometimes use --neh. At first, I thought it was --nih whenever the previous sound has an /e/ as a vowel and --neh otherwise, but that's not the rule...
amhoanna wrote:Cûiⁿ cām-á, FUTURESPY su-té-hā tī pa̍t-ūi ū the̍h-tio̍h ci̍t-kóa Siok-bū Hok-kiàn-ōe ê tóng-àn.
I'll post later in the forums her version of the first 20 sentences of 五語快易通. Audio will take some time to come tho, since I need to split it...

amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo in the Bisayas: comments on the archives

Post by amhoanna »

FSpy, I hope I'll have time and the opportunity to come back to this soon and often. In any case, I will push to finish.

Si tengas la oportunidad de estudiar el idioma joquien de Cebu (o de cualquier lugar en las Filipinas) con otro maestro, creo que tienes que considerarla también. Un maestro que no maneja el mandarín muy bien sería lo máximo. :oops:
So the running tones numbering in every sentence on Maryknoll textbooks only work for Taiwanese, right?
Yes. In fact, they only work for Taiwanese as it's spoken in the lowlands from Taitiong (where Maryknoll is or was based) down to the south tip of the island. They use an "interpretation" of the tones which is not only not parsimonious (無簡省), but also dialect-specific. For example, in the sentence "siuⁿ cē--khì--alah", the khì is a low khinsiann, but Maryknoll would label it as citation tone. The two are practically the same in that specific dialect. Fortunately, U are more or less learning that dialect anyway. And, the Maryknoll texts do the best job of labeling sandhi of any teaching text I've seen. They are thorough and consistent. Academic papers (fieldwork) do a good job too, usually.
As for citation tones, according to "Lán-lâng-oē" article from Wikipedia, the tones are exactly as those from Choân-chiu:
I think this is true, with the exception of the Jolo/Sulu dialect, which is much like MTH.

It seems to me, though, that at random times, Phils speakers will let the MTH-type T2 and T3 slip into their speech. Same with Klang / Pasang. But this needs "further research".

My feeling is that it's very hard to good answers from Phils Hokkien spkrs on the topic of Hokkien. They will always steer the conversation back to something totally irrelevant, such as "In Luzon they mix in Tagalog, but in the Visayas we mix in Bisaya." :lol: My guess is that it's a sensitive topic for most young spkrs and many middle-aged spkrs, b/c they've been losing the language -- although they will never admit it -- and the elders are not happy about it. And, ironically, one thing the young people have been doing to "appease" the elders has been to study Mandarin.

FutureSpy
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Re: Hoklo in the Bisayas: comments on the archives

Post by FutureSpy »

Thanks, amhoanna.
amhoanna wrote:Si tengas la oportunidad de estudiar el idioma joquien de Cebu (o de cualquier lugar en las Filipinas) con otro maestro, creo que tienes que considerarla también. Un maestro que no maneja el mandarín muy bien sería lo máximo. :oops:
Ya me gustaría, pero mis intentos de encontrar tsinoys que supieran hablar fukienés fueron en vano, tanto en FB como en Interpals. Lo que sí que he encontrado es gente que quiere aprenderlo, o que dice que sólo tiene un nivel conversacional. Incluso, gente que estudió de toda la vida en escuelas chinas, pero sólo sabe hablar mandarín. Según me comentó una chica, hoy día las escuelas ya no condenan el uso del fukienés (a diferencia de lo que me suena haber leído en algún post en este foro), pero tampoco lo potencían o lo fomentan.

(I wish I did, but my attempts to find Tsinoys who could speak Hokkien on both FB and Interpals were totally useless. I did manage to find a few who wanted to learn it, or claimed they could only speak it at a conversational level. Alas!, even people who studied in Chinese schools their whole lives, but could only speak Mandarin. According to a girl, nowadays Chinese schools in the Philippines no longer condemn its usage (unlike what I seem to have read in a post in this forum), but they don't really encourage nor promote it.)

I'm not very likely to find any older teachers, as they generally seem not to be enough computer-savy to use Skype, or probably already have other jobs. Even if I do, sending payments to them would be a hurdle, as it seems to me that: 1) online shopping in the Philippines isn't something most Filipinos have ever done, which takes us to 2) having a credit card in the Philippines isn't that common and often seen as fancy or not really useful, and also 3) very few Filipino companies see any point in venturing into ecommerce (Pinoy bookstores making their full catalog available online? Anyone?). Consequently, I hardly can find a Pinoy who accept Paypal or any other online payment methods...

amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo in the Bisayas: comments on the archives

Post by amhoanna »

Add to this that Tsinoys are usually too well-off to go online and teach for a few hundred pesos. Might I suggest that U save some money to fly to Manila and support yourself there for a few months? It's dirt cheap to live there compared to where U are. Your best bet would probably be to craft a "research study" that would give U an excuse to interview a number of people ages 30 to 70.

Creo que el término "fukienés" todavía no se ha establecido en este mundo. Why help build up a Mandarism? There are very few real hits for this word on Google. In a few days, people anybody who Googles it will find this thread.

FutureSpy
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Re: Hoklo in the Bisayas: comments on the archives

Post by FutureSpy »

amhoanna wrote:Creo que el término "fukienés" todavía no se ha establecido en este mundo. Why help build up a Mandarism? There are very few real hits for this word on Google. In a few days, people anybody who Googles it will find this thread.
Pero "Fukien" como topónimo me parece establecido en castellano, aunque ahora también se está colando "Fujian" o "Fujián" (por pura pereza de los traductores... de hecho, ahora incluso encuentras noticias en castellano en las que pone Beijing!). Ojalá hubiera un término castellano (o en otra lengua románica) para hoklo... Fukienés me parecía una buena idea porque, aunque ambos estén basados en el topónimo mandarín, tiene más resultados que fujianés, además de estar más cerca de hokkien (de los males, el menor) porque tiene una k en lugar de j. Solo hay 2 resultados para hokienés en Gúguel. Otras opciones serían holoano o hokloano, ya que no se confundirían con joloano (tausug), pero con 0 resultados y la desventaja de que la gente lo pronunciaría mal... :roll: Alguna otra idea? :mrgreen:

amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo in the Bisayas: comments on the archives

Post by amhoanna »

Pero ¿en qué sentido estara establecido el término Fukien en castellano? Vivo en una ciudad hispanohablante, creo que si preguntara a 10,000 hispanohablantes por la calle, no sabía ni una persona que qué significa "Fukien" o "fukienés". La idea de "福建" todavía no existe en cualquier ciudad hispanohablante -con la excepción de una parte de la gente de Zamboanga, y talvez Los Ángeles y Buenos Aires, donde seguro que se conoce por el nombre "taiwanés"-. Estamos en la posición de inventar o estabelecer un término justo. Hay unas pero muy poco personas en la red que escogieron el mandarismo "Fukien". Este nombre no tiene razón a ningun nivel, no me sirve para nada, tengo/tenemos el derecho de no usarlo...

(Corrígeme por favor si escogí la forma equivocada de cualquier verbo... :P )

Llamarlo "joloano" sí creara confusión... Propongo en cambio "banlamés" o "joquienés". "Holoano" y "hokloano" sirven bién también, los hispanohablantes ya saben que en varios nombres extranjeros el "h" suena diferente que por lo usual.

BTW, kóng tio̍h hit chut tiān'iáⁿ 15, góa cin chùbī thiaⁿ khòaⁿ lí ê khòaⁿhoat!

amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo in the Bisayas: comments on the archives

Post by amhoanna »

第二段対話:

I've labelled the sandhi below, throughout. Anything with a period, a comma, or a double dash following it is standing / citation. Everything else is running / sandhi.

In this dialect, though, T1 is the same both running and standing.


1. Kúi tiám--lo
* Does not sound like an open "o͘ " to me.
* The last syllable is light and low.

2. Chiáⁿmn̄g cit cūn, kúi tiám--lo.

3. Hiāncǎi, / cit cūn, sǐ sì tiám ca̍pgǒ͘ hun.

4. Lí búiⁿli̍t, kúi tiám, hǎpan?
* búiⁿ = múi; both have been used in POJ; I prefer the former, b/c it makes the system more consistent.

5. Góa ta̍k li̍t, epo͘ gǒ͘ tiám pòaⁿ, hǎpan.
* Here notice the tone on the "e". Sounded like mid-level to me. People tend to write 下 for this "e". I suspect that's probably incorrect. Need more data. :P Based on Taiwanese, I would expect the "e" to be low-falling. Also she says "hǎpan" twice and one time the "hǎ" sounds mid-level too. Shouldn't. But that's how language is, i.e. native spkrs do many things that books don't mention.

6. Lí ci̍t li̍t, coh kúi siósî?
* Notice the glottal stop on the "coh". It would seem to be 作, not 做.

7. Ci̍t li̍t, coh poeh siósî.

amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo in the Bisayas: comments on the archives

Post by amhoanna »

第三段対話

For some reason, this one was a lot harder to parse. Learned a bit about the tones and running vs standing in their dialect, though. Thanks for the data, FSpy.

A while back, FSpy had asked me to spell everything out in POJ, hence these posts. aBun, U might also get something out of them where I mark out the sandhi.

Anything followed by a single dash is in running / sandhi tone.

Ge̍h, li̍t, sêngkî

1 lépài,

2 Kinláⁿ- sǐ kúi ge̍h, kúi li̍t, sêngkî kúi.
* We can parse "laⁿ " as T5 standing / citation as well. Based on what we know from other dialects, though, I interpret it as running T2. Originally, the word "li̍t" would've followed. That word dropped out, but remained a hidden factor in the sandhi.

3 Kinláⁿ- sǐ lī--ge̍h lī ca̍p saⁿ li̍t, sêngkî la̍k.
* The tone level on both syllables in "lī--ge̍h" seems to drift btw mid and low from sentence to sentence.

4 Kinláⁿ- sǐ lī--ge̍h lī ca̍p saⁿ hō.

5 Bîⁿláⁿ- --liⁿ.

6 Bîⁿláⁿ- sǐ lī--ge̍h lī ca̍p sì li̍t, sêngkî li̍t.

7 Lí, sǐ cûi--li̍t khì khòa Lí siansiⁿ, sǐ--bô.
* 李 sounds low-falling, probably an error caused by Mandarin interference.
* 先生 here would be low/light/falling on both syllables in TW; also, I can't decide if there's any nasalization there.
* 汝 sounds high-level, as it would in Mainstream TWese. We can interpret it as being citation / standing.

8 téngli̍t,

9 M̌ sǐ, góa sǐ câli̍t khì khòaⁿ--i.
* "Ca" definitely sounds low-falling. The cognate in TW is mid-level. This fits the profile of T5. Not sure what's going on here. There is clearly no glottal stop. The choice of 昨 to write this etymon seems ill-advised.

10 Lí sǐ tó ci̍t lîⁿ, chutsì--ê.

11 Góa, sǐ it kiú, poehca̍pkáu--lîⁿ chutsì--ê.
* Góa sounds high-level here, as it would be in Mainstream TWese. We COULD interpret that as being in citation/standing tone.
* Notice the mix of registers in the word 1989, and that "liⁿ" is light, unlike in TW.

12 Ǎu--li̍t sǐ góa ê siⁿli̍t.
* "Siⁿ" sounds low-falling or low-level to me, not the expected mid-level. I'm not sure if there's nasalization on it.

Hope

Abun
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Re: Hoklo in the Bisayas: comments on the archives

Post by Abun »

Hey amhoanna,

yes it's indeed quite interesting. Might I ask where those parts come from (you might have mentioned it in Castellan earlier, but I have some difficulty reading that since I've never learned that and my French is already half forgotten as well :lol:)?
amhoanna wrote:汝 sounds high-level, as it would in Mainstream TWese. We can interpret it as being citation / standing.
Do we? I don't quite see the difference between this one and Kinláⁿ- in sentence two. Both should be T2 if you look at other variants, and both take the running tone instead of the standing one, which we would expect. So do you have a reason why you interpret one as running T2 and the other as standing T1?
amhoanna wrote:9 M̌ sǐ, góa sǐ câli̍t khì khòaⁿ--i.
* "Ca" definitely sounds low-falling. The cognate in TW is mid-level. This fits the profile of T5. Not sure what's going on here. There is clearly no glottal stop. The choice of 昨 to write this etymon seems ill-advised.
I learned this morpheme as "cha" (in T1), but I have no audio sources to check that now. Anyways, cha or châ wouldn't make a difference for me, since I would sandhi both to mid-level and I have yet to come across a word where I would have to use the citation tone for this morpheme.
But does the absence of a glottal stop necessarily mean that 昨 can't be the pún-jī? Sure, my rhyme dictionaries also write it as 疾各切 and 各 does have a glottal stop, but isn't it still possible that a pronunciation from an older layer is missing that? At least the pronunciation-defining 乍 has two spellings in 集韻: 即各切 and 鉏駕切, the latter of which renders chà in Hokkien, without a glottal stop. Is it then impossible that 昨 has a pronunciation without glottal stop?

amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo in the Bisayas: comments on the archives

Post by amhoanna »

isn't it still possible that a pronunciation from an older layer is missing that? At least the pronunciation-defining 乍 has two spellings in 集韻: 即各切 and 鉏駕切, the latter of which renders chà in Hokkien, without a glottal stop. Is it then impossible that 昨 has a pronunciation without glottal stop?
Good point. U are right AFAIK, there is that likelihood. Indeed 炸 is ca3 in Hoklo.
I don't quite see the difference between this one and Kinláⁿ- in sentence two. Both should be T2 if you look at other variants, and both take the running tone instead of the standing one, which we would expect. So do you have a reason why you interpret one as running T2 and the other as standing T1?
Both should be T2 if we look at other variants, true.

The láⁿ- is high-rising, and in a position where we'd expect the syllable to stand. High-rising means either running T2 or standing T5. Based on other variants, we interpret it as running T2, but it's like there's a "ghost" standing syllable following it. Hence the "trailing dash" -- not an elegant convention, I know.

The most well-known example of a "standing ghost" is the swear word "kàn-". In TW, the swear word is always high-falling, which is running T3. Yet, many times nothing follows it, even though running syllables generally have to have something following it. In this case the "ghost" is some form of "lín liâⁿ ". :mrgreen:

Góa is not high-rising -- it's high-level. In her dialect, high-level is either running T3 or standing T2. Based on what we know from all other tonal languages in the Sinosphere, we interpret it as standing T2. From there we conclude that pronouns generally stand in Mainstream Phils Hokkien (and Penang Hokkien), even though they run in Taiwan and Amoy.

And BTW even though Amoy is often cited as a "representative", it's really not representative of Mainland Hoklo. It's like a Taiwanese dialect that washed back onto the Mainland, if that makes sense.

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