How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
FutureSpy
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by FutureSpy »

Abun wrote:I did notice that with -k of course, but I always heard the vowel before -h as a real o (the one without a dot in POJ)...
Actually, when I mean "or", I mean the "o" as they pronounce it in Tâi-lâm... (not sure if it's everywhere in Tâi-lâm tho xD) I guess that's similar to /ə/?

Listen to the audio for the entry for 'bô': http://twblg.dict.edu.tw/holodict_new/r ... wcount=236
To me, that's "bor".

And then for 'koh': http://twblg.dict.edu.tw/holodict_new/r ... owcount=26
That's "korh". But my speakers pronounce it as "koh"...

Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by Abun »

FutureSpy wrote:Actually, when I mean "or", I mean the "o" as they pronounce it in Tâi-lâm... (not sure if it's everywhere in Tâi-lâm tho xD) I guess that's similar to /ə/?
Yes, that's the sound that I mean. I mean I only ever heard this or even sth going more into the direction of closed o (IPA [o]). But my experience is very limited :lol: I'm curious though, where do your speakers come from?

FutureSpy
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by FutureSpy »

Abun wrote:I'm curious though, where do your speakers come from?
Somewhere in Tâi-lâm. I can't remember the name of the district. If only I had seen it written... :lol:
I'll ask again next time I see them. I've only met them once this year...

amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by amhoanna »

Anyway, even now I have the feeling that it's a rather "emotional" construction, in Mandarin at least, expressing a certain degree of frustration, right? Maybe that's why my first feeling usually leads me to using 不管...還 if I want to say "no matter how...", and hardly ever 怎麼...怎麼
Just thought of another native construction in Hoklo:

"khah X mã sĩ Y"

e.g. "Khah siám mã sĩ kiaⁿ."
And does it make a semantic difference whether you say gún or guán?
Yes and no. The word "goán" doesn't exist in Coanciu Hoklo and Coanciu-type dialects, such as the Taipak-based dialect of 20th century TWese pop music. In those dialects, it's ALL gún.

In Mainstream TWese, goán is WE (excl.); gún is OUR. Gún can also mean "I" in either dialect. Outside of song lyrics, I'm pretty sure this last usage is reserved for womankind -- not so kosher for masculine usage.

The Coanciu-type usage "gún" meaning WE (excl.), coming out of a man's mouth, actually sounds effeminate to people from districts down-island where everybody says "goán" for WE (excl.). Someone wrote a blog article last yr explaining how this is a misconception.
But I guess as long as I keep reminding yourself of this, the damage should be limited, I guess
As learners, we still all need to get good input from somewhere. Unfortunately, that somewhere is not pop music. And that is really a shame.
But in songs I am not that confident, also because I'm not used to tones being taken into consideration in songs at all.
Tone levels are taken into consideration in Cantonese, Siamese, and Vietnamese song writing and, traditionally, in Hoklo song writing as well. But not in Mandarin.

A lot of people were so sick of the 20th century enka style of Hoklopop that they've really embraced the "Mandopop in Hoklo" wave of the last 10 yrs... But failure to look at tone levels is one of the "sins" of the "Mandopop in Hoklo" wave, right behind "lack of originality". :mrgreen:

¡Go, go, go Hokkien!

Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by Abun »

amhoanna wrote:The word "goán" doesn't exist in Coanciu Hoklo and Coanciu-type dialects, such as the Taipak-based dialect of 20th century TWese pop music. In those dialects, it's ALL gún.

In Mainstream TWese, goán is WE (excl.); gún is OUR. Gún can also mean "I" in either dialect. Outside of song lyrics, I'm pretty sure this last usage is reserved for womankind -- not so kosher for masculine usage.
Thanks a lot for the explanation, so the MoE dict wasn't wrong after all, just not explicit enough^^
amhoanna wrote:Tone levels are taken into consideration in Cantonese, Siamese, and Vietnamese song writing and, traditionally, in Hoklo song writing as well. But not in Mandarin.
Yes. Unfortunately of these languages I only knew Mandarin before, so this is the first time I'm getting in touch with the phenomenon :mrgreen:

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