How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
FutureSpy
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:23 pm

How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by FutureSpy »

I've been addicted to this song for weeks now and decided to romanize the lyrics, so that I could sing along. Just that when I got the lyrics, I realized the lyricist simply wrote most words in Mandarin. Okay, that's usual in Taiwanese songs, but it's the first time I saw a Taiwanese song written using so many Mandarin words. Nevertheless, I love the song! :mrgreen:

I tried to use the hanji according to MOE's 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典 for practical reasons. Probably there are some errors, but romanization should be at least close to what it was supposed to be...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sastikpc4Mw
晚安台灣 - 滅火器 / àm-an Tâi-oân - FIRE EX.
詞曲:楊大正
編曲:滅火器


Original lyrics
My version
Romanization

在這個安靜的晚上
我知道你有心事睡不著
想著你的過去 受盡凌遲
甘苦很多年


佇這个安靜的暗暝
我知影你有心事睏袂睏
想著你的過去 受盡量遲
甘苦真濟年


tī chit-ê an-chēng ê àm-mî
góa chai-iáⁿ lí ū sim-sū khùn-bōe-khì
siūⁿ-tio̍h lí ê kòe-khì siū chīn-liāng tî
kam-khó͘ chin chōe nî


在這個安靜的晚上
我知道你有心事睡不著
煩惱你的未來該向哪去
幸福在哪裡


佇這个安靜的暗暝
我知影你有心事睏袂睏
煩惱你的未來欲對佗位去
幸福佇佗位


tī chi̍t-ê an-chēng ê àm-mî
góa chai-iáⁿ lí ū sim-sū khùn-bōe-khì
hôan-ló lí ê bī-lâi beh tùi tòe khì
hēng-hok tī tó-ūi


啊~啊
黑暗他總會過去
太陽一出來仍然會是好天氣
你有一個美麗的名字


啊~啊
烏暗伊總會過去
日頭一出來猶原敢是好天氣
你有一个美麗的名字


ah~ ah
o͘-àm i chóng ē kòe-khì
li̍t-thâu chi̍t chhut-lâi iû-ôan kám-sī hó thiⁿ-khì
lí ū chi̍t-ê bí-lē ê miâ-lī


啊~啊
天公伯總會保庇
太陽一出來仍然會是好天氣
願你順遂台灣


啊~啊
天公伯總會保庇
日頭一出來猶原敢是好天氣
願你順序台灣


ah~ ah
thiⁿ-kong-peh chóng ē pó-pì
li̍t-thâu chi̍t chhut-lâi iû-ôan kám-sī hó thiⁿ-khì
gōan lí sūn-sūi Tâi-oân


願你平安台灣

願你平安台灣

gōan lí pêng-an Tâi-oân

Original lyrics extracted from ※ Mojim.com 魔鏡歌詞網
I'm yet to try it with a Taiwanese and see which one they'd read more correctly... :roll:

amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by amhoanna »

Will hv to get at this later. The site was down where I am. :?: Kita mencari tempat baru? ¿Mudémonosaotrositio?

FutureSpy
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by FutureSpy »

Same here. こないだダウンタイム結構増えてきたんだな。 Yaperoadónde? xD

amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by amhoanna »

Hi, FutureSpy--

I'm impressed that U were able to get the lyrics down so well. Seems like U've actually been learning Hoklo for quite some time?

A few things I would change:

siū chīn-liāng tî >> siū-chīn lêng-tī 受盡凌治

kam-khó͘ >> kan-khó͘ 艱苦

beh tùi tòe khì >> toé
(Small difference but not insignif. Like Canto and Viet songs, Hoklo songs are melodized with tone in mind. U can tell he's singing toe2 instead of toe3. Also, from what I understand, toe3 is a contraction of toe2 and khi0, so U wouldn't hear toe3 khi0.)

li̍t-thâu chi̍t chhut-lâi iû-ôan kám-sī hó thiⁿ-khì >> ji̍t-thâu chhut-lâi iû-goân koh-sī hó-thiⁿ-khì
I didn't hear a chit8 in there.

Also a few things with the kanji. Sūnsuī would be 順遂. I've never heard this word used in spoken Hoklo, nor hardly even spoken Mandarin for that matter.

Also the general convention in TW is to use one kanji per syllable, so toé woudn't be written 佗位, although this makes sense to me. I think there's dialects of Hoklo in China w/ even more blends. At that pt it seems unavoidable, writing two kanji for one syllable.

你 for lí is just flat-out wrong, even though it's sanctioned by the MOE.

FutureSpy
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by FutureSpy »

Thanks, amhoanna! m(_ _)m
I'm impressed that U were able to get the lyrics down so well. Seems like U've actually been learning Hoklo for quite some time?
Nah, I didn't get it by ear. Just imagine someone who patiently went through the whole song looking up for every word in more than one dictionary... That's me. :roll:
kam-khó͘ >> kan-khó͘ 艱苦
Hm... But aren't 艱苦 and 甘苦 two different words? And I have the impression he says kam, but I'm not sure. (I have a problem with final -m and -n, Portuguese is to blame for that!) My nasalizations are getting slightly better, yet my tendence to change final -m into -n isn't.
beh tùi tòe khì >> toé
Is it a contraction of to2-ui7? Actually I had no idea, but the entry for to2-ui7 in MOE gives toe2 and toe7 too, so I simply pickesd up the one that seemed closer to me (I still can't distinguish tones very well). Contractions are very scary to me, as I've seen cases when they take the tone from the last word, and in others they seem simply random. :evil:
Like Canto and Viet songs, Hoklo songs are melodized with tone in mind.
Something I've always wondered about tonal languages. Then it should be hard to make the lyrics in Hokkien for a song previously composed?
li̍t-thâu chi̍t chhut-lâi iû-ôan kám-sī hó thiⁿ-khì >> ji̍t-thâu chhut-lâi iû-goân koh-sī hó-thiⁿ-khì
I didn't hear a chit8 in there.
I do hear something there, but not chit8. It sounds to me like tit (like when t is slightly elided in normal speech, but I know it's not what he says) instead of chit.
Here's why live versions are useful sometimes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZRdQP5r_2g&t=1m39s (1m39s: there it shoulds like chit8 to me, but since the audio wasn't recorded directly to the cam, not reliable ;P)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTTb6Fs-SNI&t=3m34s (3m34s: I think I hear chit here)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpZz2YmEyYo&t=2m (2m: a little clearer)
...and there are so many of them on YouTube but none decently recorded, so not worth checking all of them :\
Also a few things with the kanji. Sūnsuī would be 順遂. I've never heard this word used in spoken Hoklo, nor hardly even spoken Mandarin for that matter.
Oh-oh. A typo while looking up the word in the dictionary... Typed sun7-su7 instead and screwed up this one. :oops:

Also the general convention in TW is to use one kanji per syllable, so toé woudn't be written 佗位, although this makes sense to me. I think there's dialects of Hoklo in China w/ even more blends. At that pt it seems unavoidable, writing two kanji for one syllable.
你 for lí is just flat-out wrong, even though it's sanctioned by the MOE.
So if I wasn't to follow MOE, am I supposed to use 汝 instead?

amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by amhoanna »

Just imagine someone who patiently went through the whole song looking up for every word in more than one dictionary... That's me.

Impressive!
Hm... But aren't 艱苦 and 甘苦 two different words?
Yes. 艱苦 is a very common word and fits here, meaning-wise. 甘苦 is kind of a rare word -- I can't remember ever hearing it. The -n in 艱 tends to assimilate to -ng here.
Contractions are very scary to me, as ...
Contractions work in strange ways. Coanciu-type dialects seem to use more of them.
Is it a contraction of to2-ui7?
Yes. On second thought, toē and toè might be too, for some people.
Something I've always wondered about tonal languages. Then it should be hard to make the lyrics in Hokkien for a song previously composed?
A little harder, yes. I wrote Hoklo lyrics for half of Usher's song "Yeah" as part of an L.A. 台湾會舘 project some years back. I think the recording is actually up on Youtube. Certain lyrics didn't work b/c of the melody. Other times we just adapted the vocals to the lyrics, esp. easy with R&B. Maybe a few times I tried disregarding pitch-matching, but the results were never good. ... One line fit the melody so well that all heads turned in the studio the first time someone sang it at rehearsal.

There's no pitch-matching convention in Mando-pop, at least not in this era.
I do hear something there, but not chit8. It sounds to me like tit (like when t is slightly elided in normal speech, but I know it's not what he says) instead of chit.
Yeah, I tried another link and heard it. Chi̍t it is.
So if I wasn't to follow MOE, am I supposed to use 汝 instead?
This can be an interesting question. 你 is indefensible here, but most TWese who write Hoklo in kanji use it, esp. if they type using a bopomofo Mandarin input :lol: :roll: and many of them know it's wrong, but keep on using it. Reminding them that it's wrong ... is a good way to make enemies. :mrgreen: They like to bury their heads in the sand, but I belong to the Taiffalo (Google him) school of thought: if your cousin has his head in the sand, blow it away (the sand, of course) and make him face what's out there! If he can't handle it, then f**k him!

amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by amhoanna »

Just seen on a social networking site:
鄧雨賢作曲、許丙丁作詞,台語老歌〈菅芒花〉足好聽,儂儂呵咾。毋過咱嘛愛老實評論講,伊个歌詞、旋律攏足優美動人,但是配起來有一个大問題,就是歌詞个語言聲調,佮旋律个音樂袂鬥搭。

若毋知影歌詞个儂,雄雄聽著,會毋知伊咧唱啥。像第一句歌詞「菅芒花 kuann-bang-hue」,即三字就語言來講,到「花」字,聲調上峘,但是伊个旋律唱做 Sol Sol Re,尾字煞降四度落去,聽起來煞變做 「kuann-bang-huè」,毋知是「啥乜『貨』」,真無自然。就台語歌謠,希望予儂一聽就了解意思,毋免閣看歌詞个基本精神來講,按呢無理想。

尤其是咱若欲創作台語囡仔歌,教囡仔唱,來傳承台語,即點閣卡重要!

FutureSpy
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by FutureSpy »

amhoanna wrote:This can be an interesting question. 你 is indefensible here,
Actually, one of my textbooks uses 汝, but I thought the author was trying to maintain the dialectal unity as much as possible :lol:

I'm still not studying it. I always read my language textbooks in advance to see what they have to offer me, and this one is probably the best one ever published in Japanese. It's called "台湾語会話", book plus a 3CD set is sold separately. It has 10 lessons on pronunciation, 45 basic lessons and 20 応用 ouyou lessons (I never really understood what kind of level 応用 is for Japanese people, but they either have 入門 and 応用, or they classify their courses in 初級,中級, 上級 and 超上級). The book is very compact (Japanese typical 単行本 pocket format and small letters) and explanations might not be as throughout as those in Maryknoll, but still pretty good (a lot better than the other textbooks I'm using right now). The good thing is that they always give variants for many words and even contractions. I'm loving it!

Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by Abun »

FutureSpy wrote:日頭一出來猶原敢是好天氣
Are you sure it's kám? To me it sound's like koh (the one the MoE writes 閣)

And btw, I do hear a tsi̍t there, albeit somewhat indistinct.

Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by Abun »

Oh and since the topic is already at 滅火器's songtexts, I have a problem with another one myself. I will adopt Spy's coloring system (if you don't mind, I'll change it if that means a copyright infringement :lol:), that is:

Original lyrics
My version (again in MoE-Hanji)
Romanization
悲歌 - 滅火器 / Pi-koa - FIRE EX.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uchPVbOuHnc

眼睛剛睜開的我 現在是下午三點半
我在這金色的房間裡怎麼看不見希望
十九歲青春的夢 現實就叫我要看破
茫茫浮沉的腳步聲 我們該向哪裡走


目睭抵褫開的我,這馬是下晡三點半
我踮在金色的房間內,哪看無希望
十九歲青春的夢,現實就叫阮愛看破
茫茫浮沉的跤步聲,阮該向佗位行


ba̍k-chiu tú thí-khui ê góa, chit-má sī ē-po͘ saⁿ tiám pòaⁿ
góa tiàm chāi kim-sek ê pâng-keng lāi, ná khòaⁿ-bô hi-bāng
cha̍p-káu hòe chheng-chhun ê bāng, hiān-si̍t tiō kiò gún ài khòaⁿ-phòa
bâng-bâng phû-tîm ê kha-pō͘-siaⁿ, gún kai hiòng tó-ūi kiâⁿ


一個人拿起吉他大聲唱出這條無奈的悲歌
想到父母期待和疼愛
我的心就痛 流著眼淚 大聲唱出這首悲歌給自己聽
爸爸媽媽 原諒我 愛作夢的傻孩子


一个人攑起ギター(an anglo-Japanese loan, which as for now the MoE hasn't assigned any character to, so I'll just use the Japanese katakana spelling here),大聲唱出這條無奈的悲歌
想著爸母期待佮疼痛
阮的心就疼,流著目屎,大聲唱出這條悲歌予家己聽
爸爸媽媽,原諒我,愛做夢的戇囡仔


chi̍t-ê-lâng gia̍h-khí gì-ta, tōa-siaⁿ chhiùⁿ-chhut chit-tiâu bô-nāi ê pi-koa
siūⁿ-tio̍h pē-bú kî-thāi kah thiàⁿ-thàng
gún ê sim tiō thiàⁿ, lâu-tio̍h ba̍k-sai, tōa-siaⁿ chhiuⁿ-chhut chit-tiâu pi-koa hō͘ ka-ki thiaⁿ
pa-pa ma-ma, goân-liōng góa, ài chòe-bāng ê gōng gín-á


現在我的生活 好像是一場夢
怎麼閃躲 怎麼驚惶 都沒有用
像草一樣的生命 隨風吹任人踏
但是我依然站在這大聲唱我們的歌


這馬我的生活,哪親像一場夢
按怎閃避,按怎驚惶,攏無較縒
親像草仔的性命,隨風吹任人踏
但是阮猶原徛佇遮大聲唱咱的歌


chit-má góa ê seng-oa̍h, ná chhin-chhiūⁿ chi̍t-tiûⁿ bāng
àn-chóaⁿ siám-phiah, àn-chóaⁿ kiaⁿ-hiâⁿ, lóng bô-khah-choa̍h
chhin-chhiūⁿ chháu-á ê sìⁿ-miā, sûi-hong chhoe līm lâng ta̍h
tān-sī gún iû-goân khiā tī chia tōa-siaⁿ chhiuⁿ lán-ê koa


[repeat the 一个人攑起ギター part]
I've actually got a couple of questions about this:
1. I don't quite understand the meaning of 十九歲青春的夢,現實就叫我愛看破. "When the dream I had had with 19 in my youth came real, I had to... accept it?"
2. I can't hear the last syllable of 想到父母期待和疼愛 clearly. To me it sounds like tam or possibly lang (I'm not yet able to hear the tones in the melody for sure, but I'd guess a low register), but that doesn't make much sense. Looking it up, I found thiàⁿ-thàng (疼痛), but as much as I listen, I can't hear an aspiration (on the other hand, I don't hear it in kî-thāi (期待), either). Could it be thiàⁿ-lâng (疼人)? Would fit the sound but to me the lâng feels like "somebody else". However, according to the context it should be "I" who is 疼ed.
3. I don't understand the meaning of 隨風吹任人踏, especially the jīm lâng (任人) part. Is this a pronoun (an abbreviation of jīm-hô-lâng (任何人), "anybody, no matter who" maybe?) or is 任 a verb, like "assign the task of 踏ing to 人"?
4. 按怎閃辟,按怎驚惶 is another part I'm not sure about. 按怎閃辟 is "how to avoid it", but 按怎驚惶? I only know kiaⁿ-hiâⁿ (驚惶) as an adjective meaning "terrifying, very scary", but here it's used like a verb: "how to x" (or combined with the lóng (攏) in the next verse rather "no matter how I [try to] x"...)
5. The song seems to use the pronouns góa(我), gún(阮), lán(咱) pretty much interchangeably. I heard about gún/goán sometimes denoting "I", rather than "we", but always had the feeling that usually only occurs when you refer to something from your in-group to an out-group (like "gún tau", "gún kong-si", "gún lāu-pē"). But I thought that gún and lán were pretty strictly distinguished, so you couldn't use lán interchangeably with gún, let alone góa... Or is 但是阮猶原徛佇遮大聲唱咱的歌 really supposed to mean "but we (but not you, listener) are still standing here, loudly singing our song (that we composed together with you)"?

Thanks in advance for your ideas.
Last edited by Abun on Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:37 pm, edited 10 times in total.

Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by Abun »

yeah, accidental repost again... and still not able to find a way to delete my own posts...

amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by amhoanna »

aBun, I haven't listened to the song, b/c of bandwidth concerns. But let me answer U as well as I can otherwise.
1. I don't quite understand the meaning of 十九歲青春的夢,現實就叫我愛看破. "When the dream I had had with 19 in my youth came real, I had to... accept it?"
"My youthful dreams, the dreams of a 19-year-old... Reality forces me to see through them and quit dreaming."
3. especially the jīm lâng (任人) part. Is this a pronoun (an abbreviation of jīm-hô-lâng (任何人), "anybody, no matter who" maybe?) or is 任 a verb, like "assign the task of 踏ing to 人"?
This word is commonly used in Mandarin, but not in Hoklo, at least not outside the PRC. It acts like a verb -- not sure if it really is one. It's hard to translate into English. 任人踏 = ABLE TO OR AVAILABLE TO BE STEPPED ON BY ANYBODY.

A younger singer should hire an agent, 不然豈不任人宰割 (this is Mandarin) = OTHERWISE WOULDN'T S/HE JUST BE LEAVING HIM-/HERSELF OPEN TO EXPLOITATION?

任誰都解釋不清 = ANYONE, NO MATTER WHO, WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN IT CLEARLY. (This is OK for Mandarin, but it's more like the Modern Literary Chinese of Cantopop lyrics.)

Again, jīmlâng is not really vernacular Hoklo.
4. 按怎閃辟,按怎驚惶 is another part I'm not sure about.
This is a structural borrowing from Mandarin 怎麼 X,怎麼 Y, e.g. 怎麼躲,怎麼怕 -- NO MATTER HOW I DODGE/EVADE, I AM STILL AFRAID.

I believe this usage is ungrammatical in Hoklo proper, but the youngest generations probably have no way of recognizing this. There's a native usage using the word "sian" (no settled kanji), e.g. "(Góa) sian siámphiah tomǎ kiaⁿhiâⁿ."
5. The song seems to use the pronouns góa(我), gún(阮), lán(咱) pretty much interchangeably. I heard about gún/goán sometimes denoting "I", rather than "we", but always had the feeling that usually only occurs when you refer to something from your in-group to an out-group (like "gún tau", "gún kong-si", "gún lāu-pē"). But I thought that gún and lán were pretty strictly distinguished, so you couldn't use lán interchangeably with gún, let alone góa...
The interchanging should mostly be btw goá and gún, yes. Lán is distinct, although I have heard "lílán" in a song lyric, meaning YOU AND ME, effectively replacing vernacular "lán nňg ê" or "lí hâm góa".
"gún lāu-pē"
What I learned was that this expression impllies that U have one or more siblings. If you said "góa lǎupěe", that would mean you were an only child. The two expressions aren't interchangeable. Note that if U only had one sibling, a brother, U would still say "gún hiaⁿtī".

Insert non-native speaker disclaimer here. :mrgreen:

Songs are one of my favorite media for learning a language. Unfortunately, for learning some languages, like Cantonese, they are pretty much useless; and for other languages, such as Southern Vietnamese or Hoklo, their usefulness is limited. I especially advise against using post-2000 Hoklo-pop for educational purposes. :P The 20th century enka, which some so love to hate, is not really good either for learning Hoklo, although I do kind of like it in itself.

Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by Abun »

Hey amhoanna,

thanks for the detailed and informative answers.
amhoanna wrote:This word is commonly used in Mandarin, but not in Hoklo, at least not outside the PRC. It acts like a verb -- not sure if it really is one. It's hard to translate into English. 任人踏 = ABLE TO OR AVAILABLE TO BE STEPPED ON BY ANYBODY.
Actually I have never come across that expression in Mandarin either (at least I didn't notice it, maybe it hid somewhere of the didn't-understand-each-word-but-got-the-overall-meaning-and-the-topic-is-more-important-than-asking-for-the-word-so-what-the-hell part of conversations once or twice :lol:). According to what you say, I feel it's probably grammatically (and, in the way that it indicates a kind of passive voice to a certain extent even semantically) similar to 讓 in sentences like 他讓車裝傷了, which would make it part of the word group that are often called prepositions but are originally verbs and in a way still behave like them.
amhoanna wrote:任誰都解釋不清 = ANYONE, NO MATTER WHO, WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN IT CLEARLY.
And with this sentence I finally understood how the connection between the verb 任 and "anybody, no matter who" in 任何 came about :mrgreen:
amhoanna wrote:
4. 按怎閃辟,按怎驚惶 is another part I'm not sure about.
This is a structural borrowing from Mandarin 怎麼 X,怎麼 Y, e.g. 怎麼躲,怎麼怕 -- NO MATTER HOW I DODGE/EVADE, I AM STILL AFRAID.
Don't know if it's a good sign I didn't think about this construction (because it means I'm not making the Mandarin connection as quickly anymore) or a bad one (because my Mandarin is getting worse). :lol: Anyway, even now I have the feeling that it's a rather "emotional" construction, in Mandarin at least, expressing a certain degree of frustration, right? Maybe that's why my first feeling usually leads me to using 不管...還 if I want to say "no matter how...", and hardly ever 怎麼...怎麼
amhoanna wrote:The interchanging should mostly be btw goá and gún, yes. Lán is distinct, although I have heard "lílán" in a song lyric, meaning YOU AND ME, effectively replacing vernacular "lán nňg ê" or "lí hâm góa".
"lí-lán" indeed is an interesting word... is that maybe a Hokkien pendant of Mandarin 你我 (which I have also only ever heard in songtexts, four-character slogans or otherwise “poetic” environments, hardly ever in conversation)? My speculation about the usage of lán there would be that "you and me" includes "you", and that notion took prominence over the fact that it should grammatically be a coordination "you and we" (and thereby exclusive “we”), but that’s only speculation…

As for the difference between gún/guán (meaning singular) and guá, do you feel confident enough to take a chance and try to roughly define the difference? My above-mentioned feeling that gún/guán is used for mentioning your in-group to your out-group seems at least not entirely true after all (I have to admit, part of that feeling probably originates from Korean, where it does exactly that, cf. 우리집(uri jip, "our" home), 우리 회사(uri hoesa, "our" company), 우리 아빠(uri appa, "our" dad (no matter if you have siblings or not)) ect.)
And does it make a semantic difference whether you say gún or guán? The MoE dict says that the plural meaning is pronounced guán and the singular meaning gún (and that it also tends to indicate a female speaker). However what I heard so far indicates that this is not true (anymore?). At least I did hear gún used for plural and by males, too. Does that mean that these two are in fact mere pronunciation differences then?
amhoanna wrote:Songs are one of my favorite media for learning a language. Unfortunately, for learning some languages, like Cantonese, they are pretty much useless; and for other languages, such as Southern Vietnamese or Hoklo, their usefulness is limited.
Yes, I'm well aware of that. Even in languages that don't face the "dialect" vs. "standard language" problem, the language used in poetry (including music) is often very different from what people use on the street. The first example that comes to my mind is Korean again, imagine if I had tried to learn that from songs, I'd probably go around calling people 그대(kŭdae), the second person singular pronoun which is most prominently used in poetry, but unfortunately only there :lol: In the case of Hokkien, there also may be the problem that quite a few of the singers only have a limited knowledge of the language themselves.
But I guess as long as I keep reminding yourself of this, the damage should be limited, I guess :wink:

FutureSpy
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by FutureSpy »

Abun wrote:
FutureSpy wrote:日頭一出來猶原敢是好天氣
Are you sure it's kám? To me it sound's like koh (the one the MoE writes 閣)

And btw, I do hear a tsi̍t there, albeit somewhat indistinct.
Not sure. Perhaps káⁿ? I'm not sure, since I still can't distinguish tones (shame on me) :mrgreen:
If it's not káⁿ, it could be possibly korh, but my question is: can /o/ in words with tone 4 and 8 be pronounced as or?

[EDIT] I've just listened the pronunciation for 'koh' on MoE's dictionary, and yes, it's clearly korh. My question was because the speakers I know who pronounce O as OR always do it, except in -k -t -p -h sequences... :roll: Does káⁿ make any sense there? Perhaps, it's a koh then... :lol:

Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by Abun »

FutureSpy wrote:I'm not sure, since I still can't distinguish tones (shame on me) :mrgreen:
hm, while I do have my problems with some tone combinations (for example, everytime I try to say chhiáⁿ-lâng-kheh (請人客), my ears tell me that the tone on the middle syllable is rising, no matter how much I try to keep it level), I'm pretty confident that I could distinguish the running forms of 2nd and 4th tone (i.e. high level and high falling)... But in songs I am not that confident, also because I'm not used to tones being taken into consideration in songs at all. When listening to the song, I do have the feeling that it is falling, but that might just as well be my imagination because I always interpreted the syllable as koh :lol:
FutureSpy wrote:the speakers I know who pronounce O as OR always do it, except in -k -t -p -h sequences... :roll: Does káⁿ make any sense there? Perhaps, it's a koh then... :lol:
Really? I did notice that with -k of course, but I always heard the vowel before -h as a real o (the one without a dot in POJ)... in fact, the MoE-dict lists a few words (admittedly only three, but among them is the commonly heard sentence final --ooh(喔)), so -oh and -ooh would be minimal pairs.
As for the finals -t and -p, I have never heard a word with either o or oo in front of them in actual conversation, so I can't say... The MoE dict doesn't list any words with -ot and only one word with -op (lop(橐), "don something hat-like"), there it indeed seems to be oo, though.

As for your question if káⁿ makes any sense there... I would say not, at least definitely not if there really is a chi̍t, because that requires a following koh if you ask me. However, I always thought that Mandarin 一...就 was parallelled in Hokkien by chi̍t...koh(一下...閣), don't know if the ē can be omitted in actual Hokkien or whether this is a Mandarinism. Or if there in fact is no chi̍t xD In this case and with káⁿ (ji̍t-thâu chhut--lâi káⁿ sī hó thiⁿ-khì) however, it would translate to sth like "is it good wheather if the some comes out?", wouldn't it? And that would be kind of a weird question to ask, if you ask me :lol:

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