Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions (Part 2)

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions (Part 2)

Post by SimL »

Mark Yong wrote:I have one of those at my parental home! It was given to us by my late paternal grandmother back in the 1980’s (she had one too many at her house). Yes, we used to call it , too (pronounced ciāng in my dialect). I know it is also associated with the Malay word ‘cebok’, but I am not sure whether that word refers to the 水井 cui2 cεⁿ2 itself, the large wooden ladle with which you scooped the water, or the method of bathing as a whole.
In our household, the scoop itself wasn't called the "cEN2". It was the large cement "object" (actually, less an "object", and more just part of the structure of the bathroom - usually built into the wall) which was the "cEN2" (because of it's resemblance to and functioning as a "well"). I have no memory of what the scoop was called, because we never had one, and never bathed in this way. Our "cui-cEN" was where we kept my pet tortoise :mrgreen:. (Actually, it was a terrapin, but most people mightn't know what that is, and mightn't find the distinction important).

PS. 'cebok' on google image search produces a lot of hits, many of them relating to toilets and bathrooms, but none looking distinctly like a "scoop" (and some looking rather distasteful!). I tried "cebuk' (in case this was one of the things in the spelling reform of the 1970's/80's), but this produced even less related material.

Ah-bin
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions (Part 2)

Post by Ah-bin »

Some time back, I mentioned to aokh1979 that I identified one possible rare case of tone sandhi in Cantonese: 知道. Try saying 道 by itself. Low-level tone. Now, try saying 知道. Yup, it just became a mid-level tone.

Unless, unless... it is not 知道, but 知到. Not an impossibility, since Hokkien has its own 知影 cai-iaⁿ.
It is actually 知到 according to many of my Cantonese dictionaries and teaching materials, and even if it were 道 it still wouldn't qualify as sandhi, as it is unrelated to the tone class of the syllable, and dependent on meaning. As for the 人 yan you have mentioned becoming a rising tone, the distinction is based on its meaning, not its position in a phrase. There are many more of these in Cantonese, 話 wa22 referring to speech in general but wa35 when referring to local dialects. To qualify as sandhi it should have a phonological change that applies to all the syllables in the same tone class, and it should be unrelated to the meaning of the morpheme, otherwise all the 破音字 with different tones in Mandarin would be counted as sandhi as well.

amhoanna
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions (Part 2)

Post by amhoanna »

My variant uses both -aiⁿ & -ing above except for hîng & tīng (may be for 讀冊音 but on daily life we only say hâiⁿ & tāiⁿ).

Yes. 倒反 = tò-páiⁿ.
有意思.
Does anyone have an idea what the "chiam" is? Is it needle 針?
This goes back to the baht / poa̍t 鈸 thread.
This is an interesting point. In Bodman, 北京 is pak-kiaⁿ, but 上海 is siOng hai (i.e. not chiOⁿ hai). Also, 廣東 is kuiⁿ tang, but 廣府 is kOng hu (this one is not from Bodman).
Well, to most Hoklo speakers in the old days, siōng and ciūⁿ were just two different words, period...

I mean, why is 泉州 Coânciu, not Coâⁿciu? Either way, the written form would've been 泉州. The only way to know, is to know. I always thought of 東莞 as Tongkoán, but in Canton I heard people from Soàⁿboé call it Tangkoáⁿ.

天津 I'm guessing is Thiantin.
I remember that 屏東 in Taiwanese is Pîn-tong, but 臺東 is Tâi-tang, I have no idea why. It may be that the first one was in a Hakka-speaking district at one time and retained a Hakka-like name.
If I'm not mistaken, 屏東 is just a Hoklo-Han transliteration of an Austronesian name. Same with Lôtong 羅東 in Gîlân 宜蘭. Pintong, Rotong, Giran... All very Austronesian sounding names, 'kan? The name Tâi'oân itself is another example. Tâitang was coined in Sino-style, I think by the Japanese, although the "Tâi" is ultimately not SIno. Kelâng 基隆 is probably yet another example, I doubt chickens and coops had anything to do with it. Even 鹿港 might be a transliteration of Rokkang.

高雄 is transliteration of aboriginal Takau, but with Japanese readings. Ditto with 萬華 / 艋舺.

Interesting that the Hoklo in the Philippines made an effort to be unambiguous in how they used Tn̂glângjī to transliterate Austronesian and European names. Hence 嗎加智 instead of 馬加智 MAKATI, etc.

amhoanna
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions (Part 2)

Post by amhoanna »

There is another example I can think of, though I am not sure if it qualifies as tone sandhi: 人 yan. It can either be a low tone when referring to persons in general, or a rising tone when specifying gender.
I think of the rising-tone thing to be equivalent to tacking on "-á" to s'thing in Hoklo.
Anyone know how sandhi tones developed? And how the early speakers applied those sandhis during the "implementation" period?
Where the tone sandhi comes from is a much more difficult question, I'll have a look and see if I can find some readable articles on the subject. I have seen many very difficult ones!
I posted a link to an old article on this subject a short while back, can't remember which thread.
Unless, unless... it is not 知道, but 知到. Not an impossibility, since Hokkien has its own 知影 cai-iaⁿ.
Interesting. I noticed in Canton last time that in the recorded announcements on buses tended to "merge" T3 and T7 when they occurred in sequence.

Mark Yong
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions (Part 2)

Post by Mark Yong »

I just re-read Bodman, and in Yap Un Pho's supplementary word list at the back of Volume 2, it says:

puăq: To throw on the floor.
puăq puê: To throw two wooden blocks in divination of one’s luck (Mark Yong: Sounds like 求籖 to me… y’know, shaking the container that contains the wooden reeds till one falls out).
Both entries are listed together, signifying the same morpheme.

I am assuming here that Mr. Yap knew the Chinese character for it, in order to make the above connection. On that basis, would anyone know what the character for puăq, as in “to throw on the floor” would be? And would that therefore be the Chinese character for puaq-kiau?

amhoanna
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions (Part 2)

Post by amhoanna »

博 èngkai sī cèngkhak-e:

http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE5Zdic8DZdic9A.htm

佇美麗島逐个 ná 像攏共 poa̍hpoe 寫做跋杯,其実博杯則是正字。

aokh1979
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions (Part 2)

Post by aokh1979 »

Something stroked me today. I remember someone asked me about why people say 無要緊 as bō-iau-kín and sometimes bō-iang-kín......

Would it be 無用緊 ? Chinese Malaysians often say 不用緊 instead of 不要緊, I suppose it's simply bō-iong-kín...... ^^

amhoanna
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions (Part 2)

Post by amhoanna »

The Ong Le recording has boē iàukín. This was borne out by every book I flipped through in the Philippines.

A co-worker of mine in Taipak -- a local belle -- always said "bô-ài-kín".

I guess your intuitions are a step ahead of the Hoklo language itself in its adventure in Mandarinization... :mrgreen:

Mark Yong
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions (Part 2)

Post by Mark Yong »

My impression is that 不用 for /不必 is a Northern trait, not Southern. If Hokkien speakers today did say 無用緊, my first reaction to it would be that it is Mandarin influence - 抗議! 抗議! :twisted:

Ah-bin
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions (Part 2)

Post by Ah-bin »

Isn't it just assimilation of the -iau final to the following k-, as in be-hiang-kong "cannot say" and be-hiang-khoaN?

When I first heard it in Taiwanese it always sounded like 'boa-kin'

SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions (Part 2)

Post by SimL »

Mark Yong wrote:I just re-read Bodman, and in Yap Un Pho's supplementary word list at the back of Volume 2, it says:

puăq: To throw on the floor.
puăq puê: To throw two wooden blocks in divination of one’s luck (Mark Yong: Sounds like 求籖 to me… y’know, shaking the container that contains the wooden reeds till one falls out).
Both entries are listed together, signifying the same morpheme.

I am assuming here that Mr. Yap knew the Chinese character for it, in order to make the above connection. On that basis, would anyone know what the character for puăq, as in “to throw on the floor” would be? And would that therefore be the Chinese character for puaq-kiau?
I always thought it was the same "puah8" as "puah8-to2" (= "to fall over, trip and fall"), as that is what one causes the sticks to do. But Douglas doesn't think this, and lists "puah-pue" (like Bodman) under the same "puah" as "puah-kiau".

poah, to gamble; to play a game of chance (sometimes to divine or draw lots). poah-kiau, to gamble; gambling (v. kiau). [...] poah-toaN, to draw by lot (in presence of idol) which play is to be played. poah-koa, to divine by tortoiseshell (v. koa). poah-poe, to divine by bamboo roots (v. poe).

But then again, Douglas doesn't give a character for the "puah" of "gambling", so perhaps even that is the same character as "falling". After all, most gambling games involve throwing things down (cards, dice, etc).

niuc
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions (Part 2)

Post by niuc »

Thank you, Ah-bin, for info about sandhis in other Chinese languages. I know about Mandarin third tone, however what I was saying is that sandhi is not applied to all tones. Very interesting to read about sandhi in other Sinitic groups, hopefully you, Amhoanna, Sim and others will share more about this next time.
SimL wrote: The other place you might have come across it in Penang is "cui2-cEN2" (literally "water well"), which was one of the terms for the large cement receptacle filled with water, in the bathroom, from which one scooped water to "bathe". This topic was covered in detail some time back, but perhaps the term for the object wasn't mentioned. I don't know if it's the proper term, or just "borrowed usage" - what did your family call it, niuc?
Sim, for this cement receptacle that is not a real well [ 古井, 深井(仔) ], we call it tî 池 (i.e. a pool). My impression is that it can be called cuí-tî 水池 also, although 水池 in Bagansiapiapi usually means a much larger cement water storage pool (water tank) under the floor.

Btw, "cebok" in Bahasa Indonesia means "anal washing".

I only heard of 天津 as Thian-cin, including from here http://203.64.42.21/iug/ungian/SoannTeng/chil/chha.asp .

Mark Yong
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions (Part 2)

Post by Mark Yong »

SimL wrote:
I always thought it was the same "puah8" as "puah8-to2" (= "to fall over, trip and fall"), as that is what one causes the sticks to do. But Douglas doesn't think this, and lists "puah-pue" (like Bodman) under the same "puah" as "puah-kiau".
Hi, Sim,

I gave this a bit of thought a moment ago, and tried mumbling both words to myself.

When I recall back, for ‘falling’, I have always heard it either as poat8-to2 or pat-to2 (Penang Hokkien seems to have this penchant for turning diphthongs into monophthongs!), i.e. with a -t ending.

However, in the case of ‘gambling’, I seem to always hear it as poah-kiau or poq-kiau - a weak -k or glottal stop, but never a -t ending (or perhaps I could have been mistaken).
niuc wrote:
..."cebok" in Bahasa Indonesia means "anal washing".
No sh1t... (yes, pun intended) :lol:

SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions (Part 2)

Post by SimL »

Hi Mark,

Valid point. You are definitely right that in Penang Hokkien "fall, trip" is pronounced "poat-to". However, I had always thought that the underlying "poah-" in it lost its "-h" (very common in non-final syllables ending in "-h" anyway), and then acquired the "-t" from the "t-" of "to".

But yes, your view of things is probably much more accurate.

Mark Yong
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions (Part 2)

Post by Mark Yong »

Hi, Sim,

A good point on the possible fusion with the t- initial in .

I gave it another acid test: Instead of 跋倒 pŏat tó, this time I tried mumbling 跋落去 pŏat lōq (k)hĭ (which is another common alternative way to say ‘fall down’). Now, this could be a vestige from the afore-mentioned t- fusion, but again, it still comes out as pŏat, not pŏah.

Again, I am not a native speaker, so perhaps one of the others could comment...?

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