Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL »

What's the Taiwanese word for "purple"...?

SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL »

Ah-bin wrote:3) What are the tones and characters for "Lam-mu-na" meaning "purple"
Oh, sorry, I missed seeing the fact that you'd like the tones too.

Well, sandhied, I say "lam3/7_mn3/7_na2". So, the "mn" could be "mn1" or "mn5". I wonder if the "na2" is just the diminutive particle "-a2"? When I say "tang3_a2" (= "window") or "chai1_tiam1_a2" (= "small "corner/local" grocery shop", called a "sundry shop" in Malaysian English), "jit->p4_pun1_a2" (= "Japanese person"), etc, then the "_a2" sounds like exactly the same tone as when I say "lam-mn-a".

Mark Yong
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Mark Yong »

amhoanna wrote:
People under 60, i.e. the Mandarin-educated, seem to use "kò goe̍h" almost to the exclusion of "goe̍hji̍t".
Apart from the age classification, there is another group of speakers who tend to use goeh-jit - the general English (i.e. non-Chinese)-educated class. From my experience, this also includes those currently in their early 30's.

amhoanna
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by amhoanna »

Císek = PURPLE in TW. Kind of boring, huh.

SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL »

amhoanna wrote:Císek = PURPLE in TW. Kind of boring, huh.
Well, nothing wrong with good old sinitic roots :P! Besides (and this is a point which (h)ong and xng were constantly making, and which I genuinely acknowledge as being valid), it's good for me (and other Penang Hokkien speakers) to know these words, so that we can communicate with other Hokkien speakers.

Mark Yong
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Mark Yong »

Some trivia, since we are on the subject of purple:

Miss-Malaysia-turned-action-superstar Michelle Yeoh's Chinese name is Romanised in (her family's variant of) Hokkien as Yeoh Choo Kheng, 楊紫瓊, i.e. "purple jade". There's your choo/chi sek - 紫色.

There is a building in Penang opposite St. George's Girls' School along the stretch of Macalister Road just off Jesselton and Ayer Rajah Road, called Che Hoon Kor 紫雲閣 "The Court/Pavillion of the Purple Cloud". (Sim, the building was only erected in the last couple of decades, so it probably post-dates your departure.)

I guess it illustrates the point that there are two aspects of Hokkien that we should aim to be cognizant about, i.e. the spoken/colloquial aspect and the literal "Sinitic" aspect, if we are to embrace the dialect holistically. And again, it shows that "Sinitic" does not necessarily mean Mandarin.

Lest poor Michelle becomes Yeoh Lam-Mu-Na Gek! :lol: (But I think you get my point.)

Yeleixingfeng
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Yeleixingfeng »

A few questions,
What is the Hokkien word for:
1. Chatting? We call it kap-siao, though it is often disapproving.
2. 尤其? Does Hokkien just use 尤其, or some other combination of particles to form the 尤其 nuance?
3. 背叛?
4. 曾經?

And, what is the punji for Sien (boring)?

Purple, we call it lam-mun-na. Like SimL, I think the -a0 is meaningless. Can anyone raise any examples for characters with the consonant m-?
I suspect the mun to be 悶, meaning a blue that is not as bright, but the etymology page shows that 悶 has only the bun pronunciation. But since 悶 got its sound from 門 (Mûi), perhaps 悶 could also be pronounced as mun? Guessing.

Ah-bin
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Ah-bin »

Wow, for the first time I can answer some questions!

1) Sembang, although it is from Malay, it seems to be the normal Penang word for chatting

3) I think 尤其 is quite normal Hokkien, I've heard several different speakers from different backgrounds use it. Don't some people use 特別 for a similar meaning

4) I would say "bat"

I always use 閒 for sian, I know it has at least one hundred years of usage.

aokh1979
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by aokh1979 »

In Penang, it would be:

1. sián-báng (sembang), phah-khòk, thâi-káng. And kap-siâu is not chatting, it's bluffing.
2. iû-kî is very common, tek-piàt (or tek-piat) is very widely used too.
3. puè-sìn or puè-phuàⁿ, I heard both before.
4. bat is the most common way......

AndrewAndrew
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by AndrewAndrew »

Mark Yong wrote: There is a building in Penang opposite St. George's Girls' School along the stretch of Macalister Road just off Jesselton and Ayer Rajah Road, called Che Hoon Kor 紫雲閣 "The Court/Pavillion of the Purple Cloud". (Sim, the building was only erected in the last couple of decades, so it probably post-dates your departure.)
The building is new, but the Che Hoon Kor or Moral Upliftment society has been there for as long as I can remember - it was formerly a lovely Anglo-Indian mansion of the kind that is typical on MacAlister Road.

niuc
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by niuc »

Interesting discussions! :mrgreen:

Although these are about Penang Hokkien, please allow me to share the parallel in my variant. Phuà-khang-thâu 破空頭 in my variant indeed means secret(s) divulged, including bad secrets (not only opportunity). 度 is tō· e.g. in 度蜜月, 度過, 溫度; for "to measure" it is tak/tok. My mom says only a few people say 月日 gè·h-dìt, mostly 個月 kò-gè·h (although Mandarin-educated has never been majority; mostly were uneducated and those below 50s are Indonesian-educated). 後日 aū_dït (dìt neutralized) is the day after tomorrow, but 後個月 aū-kò-gè·h is next month (not the month after next), so = 下個月 ē-kò-gè·h.

Purple in my variant is gûn-hue(-sik) 銀花(色), not sure why. We also say kiô-sik 茄色, but less frequently. I can't remember anyone saying 紫色. Btw the main word for blue in my variant is 青 chiⁿ, 藍 lâm is dark blue; green is 綠 lìk. How do you guys say "brown"? We usually say có-kat-làt-色 i.e. chocolate colour.

Cambodia is Kamboja in Bahasa Indonesia. According to Wikipedia, it is Kemboja in Bahasa Melayu.

Beside 背叛 puē-phuàⁿ, the more common term in my variant is 反背 huán-puē.

Yeleixingfeng
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Yeleixingfeng »

LOL... I have given up translating this to Hokkien:

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_i ... 3035132552

It was written by me - during exam; a 'prank' cover for 《沒那麽簡單》. I tried really hard to write in Hokkien, or at least make it rhyme in Hokkien too. Too bad, I believe I tried my best, but I sometimes just can't find the correct character to replace the Mandarin character, not to mention rhyming.

I hope someone would translate it to Hokkien, for me. >.< You need not follow the 詞牌 and the syllables. Just translate like how it will be spoken in colloquial Penang Hokkien speech.

Please, believe me, I have asked all my friends, and they struggle even to get through a few lines, although they were fluent in Hokkien. (Some dismissed me even before reading - not to be blamed, we are having an exam now. >.<) It is not until I have used all possible ways of translating before leaving the tedious work to you. Sorry... Thanks..

SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL »

niuc wrote:Although these are about Penang Hokkien, please allow me to share the parallel in my variant.
Oh, ALWAYS share what it's like in your variant, niuc! That's what makes the discussion even more interesting.
niuc wrote:How do you guys say "brown"? We usually say có-kat-làt-色 i.e. chocolate colour.
In the Penang of my youth, cO2-kə2-lEt4-色 or cO1-kə2-lEt4-色 was the normal term (I think "kə" could also be "ko"). [I'm writing this assuming that the "lEt" does sandhi before 色.] The vowels are more like those of English [ʧɔkəlεt] or [ʧɔkələt]. However, your pronunciation doesn't appear to be based on Dutch, as it's [ʃokola] (or perhaps very formally [ʃokoladə]) in Dutch, with no affricate but a pure fricative at the start, and no "-t" but just a vowel at the end, and a very definite [o] in the second syllable.

There was also "chia(h?)" for a certain type of (reddish?) brown. I find it difficult to know if there should be an "-h" in final position.

I only knew it as the first syllable of a two-syllable dog name, and in that context, I knew it meant a certain type of light brown - not the brown of dark chocolate, for example. My mother told me that Chinese names for dogs were very unimaginative (among her sin-kheh family) in her youth. The names were mostly <colour> + <sai1> (lion) or <hO2> (tiger). So, most dogs were called one of 6 names: peh-sai, peh-hO, chia(h)-sai, chia(h)-hO, O-sai, O-hO! And indeed, when I was very young (in the very early 60s), our dog was called O-sai. [Hmmm.. perhaps "leng5" (dragon) was also known, in addition to "sai1" and "hO2", but I'm not sure. (Still, that's only 9 dog names.)]

As I often drop the "-h" in non-final position, and only know this word for brown in non-final position (well, only in the two dog names "chia(h)-sai" and "chia(h)-hO", I don't know if the word really has an "-h".

I think it might be "", but that's just a guess. The etymology page gives the "-h" for the pronunciation of , but I have no way of really knowing if it is really the same syllable as my "chia(h)" for dogs. If I'm not mistaken, the Mandarin meaning of this character is much closer to "red" than to "brown", but of course, the meanings can diverge between Hokkien and Mandarin. I never knew that this word for "brown" (if indeed it IS the same word) is also the one used in "chia(h)-bah" 赤肉 (= "lean meat", "meat with little fat in it"). This is something I just discovered on the etymology page, when looking up for this reply. If so, one can see how close "brown" and "red" are in this context though.

I also don't know to what extent this word for (a type of) brown was known in Penang Hokkien. As I said, I only knew it from my non-Penang Hokkien relatives, for two names of dogs!

SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL »

Mark,

I'm very appreciative of your examples of Michelle Yeoh and the Penang institution. It gave me such a nice feeling to hear of in it's Malaysian (and even Penang) setting. Thanks!

Mark Yong
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Mark Yong »

My pleasure, Sim. :)

Although both chiah and ang fall under the general 'red' spectrum, historically they referred to quite different shades of red.

chiah is a etymologically a relatively darker shade of red, whereas ang is lighter, more like vermillion. And then there is also cu in between. In today's vernaculars, they have mostly been collapsed down to just ang.

Sim - I believe there is a voiced -h ending for chiah. In Cantonese, it is pronounced chæk11 (I have opted to use the Yue as a point of reference here, simply because it is the most conservative among the Southern dialects in preservation of voiced endings).

For a more detailed analysis of 'red' in Classical Chinese: http://gtotom.pthc.chc.edu.tw/tsengch/0 ... rt2_60.pdf (the Abstract on Page #2 is in English). As you can see, the list for 'red' is much more extensive than the three (3) words listed above. It is interesting to see how specific Classical Chinese was with defining shades of colours. But I digress... :lol:

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