Marriage Proposal

[Mark Yong]

SimL wrote:
What I tried to do is to understand how the individual characters combine to make up the idiomatic translation. Most of the time it was quite clear, but there are still some instances where I don't understand.

Welcome to the mystifying world of 文言 wenyan! The cryptic language employed (being increasingly distant from the spoken vernaculars over the centuries), coupled with all those historical/legendary allusions makes the study of Classical Chinese texts such tricky business. Ironically, it is probably only in 文言 wenyan that the Hokkien language can be sensibly written down and read.

[SimL]

... The cryptic language employed (being increasingly distant from the spoken vernaculars over the centuries), coupled with all those historical/legendary allusions makes the study of Classical Chinese texts such tricky business. ...

Well, one cynical (Western) sinologist (who was apparently overwhelmed by the difficulties of Chinese) remarked that one couldn't know what was written in wenyan unless one already *knew* what was written! .

I guess duaaagiii actually proved him WRONG! This was a completely new text for duaaagiii, and he managed to work out everything of importance.

By the way, the history of my perception of the nature of this scroll is quite amusing. I had never seen it until recently (because it was hanging in my cousin's house), but I had known of its existence for a number of years. All those years, I thought of it as the "marriage contract", because some members of my family believed that the text set out what the duties and rights were within the proposed marriage. Then, when I started analysing the document, I realised that it wasn't a "contract" at all. That's when I switched to thinking about it as a "marriage proposal". That's what it's described as in the initial draft of my analysis document (and the title to this whole thread too). Finally, duaaagiii pointed out that it isn't so much a "proposal" as just an "expression of thanks", because it would appear that the proposal for the two young people to marry had already been accepted.

That actually made referring to the document quite difficult in my analysis, as I couldn't keep calling it the "expression of thanks". For the moment, I've just gone back to calling it "the scroll" .

Sim.

[ong]

I think that western scholar is right.There are too many things we don't understand in old texts.Each scholar will point out old 训诂 are wrong even the scholars he blamed are old enough to be his grandfather.We don't know who to trust.

[SimL]

Hi Ong,

I found the article in question: www.pinyin.info/readings/texts/moser.html

80% of it is a long grumble about how difficult even *modern* Chinese is. For those people without the patience to read through it all, just search for "wenyan" - it's near the end of the article - to see what he says about Classical Chinese.

I have to admit that most of what he says matches my own personal experience, and the experience of every person I've ever met who started trying to learn Chinese after the age of (say) 16, i.e. my classmates at evening school, and all the Western sinologists I've spoken to at conferences.

Anyway, I wouldn't like this to turn into a Chinese-bashing thread! I still find the language and script fascinating and beautiful, and I still intend to put effort into learning it.

Regards,
Sim.

[ong]

I just keep on buying books on 训诂 and print out articles from China almost everyday.Now I even have to study articles by those born on 1983 .Many years later I have to study articles by people young enough to be my son.

[duaaagiii]

Hi duaaagiii,

Here are the promised follow-up questions.

What I tried to do is to understand how the individual characters combine to make up the idiomatic translation. Most of the time it was quite clear, but there are still some instances where I don't understand.

Thanks a lot!
Sim.


A. Line 03 伏以

Literally: 伏 "to lie prostrate" + 以 "in order to". Is this an elevated way of saying "to wish"?

That's how I would figuratively translate it. This, along with the wishes, functions as an opener.

B. Lines 07, 10, 26+27 - "higher lines"

It makes more sense not to have a line-break between line 6 and 7 (as you don't, in your translation). I notice that on the scroll itself, line 7 (referring to the Tan family) is higher than the rest of the text (so it looked like the beginning of a new line to me).

The same thing happens in line 10 (referring to Tan Hong Lim), and again in lines 26 and 27 (referring to Tan Hong Lim's mother); i.e. these lines are higher than the rest of the text.

Is this to emphasise the "highness" of the Tan family in all 3 cases, and so there is actually no line-break at these points at all? Your translation (and the sense of the text) seems to imply that.

Yes-- in fact, there is a name for this type of line break: 平抬.

C. Line 09 衍敬仲之芳踪

What is the connection between the Chen Wan (陳完) of your translation and Jing Zhong (敬仲)?

Chen is his family name, Wan is his given name, and Jing Zhong is his courtesy name (字).

D. Line 11 器宇宏深

How do these 4 characters result in the meaning "whose bearing is dignified"? Does the "bearing" come from the 儀 in the line which follows? How does 宇 = "eaves" fit into this?

Both 器宇 and 威儀 refer to one's bearing. 宇, in this context, means "appearance".

E. Line 13 欣懷御李

You say that 李 refers to 李膺. Who is 李膺, or what does it mean?

There is a story behind this:
http://140.138.172.55/orig/Show_Content.asp?id=9366

Basically, this guy 李膺 was so well-respected that 荀爽 felt immensely honored when he got to drive 李 in a horse carriage, and he went around telling people 「今日乃得御李君矣。」 (I got to drive 李's horse carriage today!) 御 here means "to drive a carriage". 御李 literally means "to drive 李 around on a carriage", and we take it to mean "to bask in your (or your family's) glory".

F. Line 17

Why is 官 used in 清妙官 to refer to a woman?

I'm not sure, but it must be referring to her because it's attached to her name. I'm thinking that the 官 is used to elevate her, whereas the 者 is neutral.

G. Lines 19 儀慚不腆 & 20 礼愧大方

I don't understand how these characters go to make the meaning "our gifts are humble" and "our manners shamefully lacking".

Both TranslatorA and TranslatorB have the "humble gifts" going with 礼愧大方 rather than with 儀慚不腆, and TranslatorA has the "ill manners" going with 儀慚不腆; i.e. the other way around. Also, should I understand 大方 as a ci2yu3 meaning "tasteful" here?

Both 儀 and 禮 mean "manners" as well as "gifts"-- they can be treated as a single concept.

腆儀 means "a big/generous gift", not "manners" in any other sense. I would interpret 大方 here as "majorly".

H. Line 22 敬行文定

Does 文定 actually mean "betrothal", or is that derived from the context?

Yes.

I. Line 23 欣觀雁拜

Would I be correct in thinking that 雁 here refers to geese as the symbol of connubial bliss / marital fidelity, and hence that 雁拜 refers to the marriage rituals?

In ancient weddings, the man's family would give the woman's family a wild goose as a part of the 奠雁 ritual. A traditional wedding ceremony involves a lot of kowtowing, hence the 拜.

J. Line 24 伏?冀熊占

Mark helped to track 冀 down as "to hope for", but:

1. Should 占 be interpreted as "to practice divination", or be part of a ci2yu3 with 熊 ?

2. If the latter, then how does 熊占 become a "baby boy"?

I'd interpret 占 as "to read a fortune", 熊占 as "to observe a bear omen". Dreaming of a bear is an omen that a baby boy is forthcoming.

K. Line 27 覽念不宣

1. The meaning of 覽 appears to be "to look at, see, view". The meanings of 鑒 are: example / mirror / to view / reflection / to reflect / to inspect, scrutinize, examine / to warn, warning, object lesson / (ancient bronze mirror) / (polite, usually used in the opening phrase in letters) Dear.

If you are amending 覽 to 鑒, I suppose it's because you're not using the "view"-related meanings of 鑒 (otherwise there would be no reason to amend). Which of the other meanings is better in this context? Or perhaps your *are* using the same meaning but you switch because 覽念 is not a good combination, whereas 鑒念 is?

The character is 鑒 in the pictures you sent me.

2. Am I correct in thinking that 不宣 is a ci2yu3 meaning "undeclared"?

It literally means "I will not go into detail", but it's used as a closing, not for its literal meaning.

3. I don't understand how these characters go to make the meaning "her approval".

That would be from the 俯賜鑒念. 鑒 is a formal term for "to inspect", derived from the old term 鑑 for "mirror".

L. Lines 28 & 29 - the dates

It is unclear to me if this date of 2 June 1923 is that of the "expression of thanks" (i.e. the message on the scroll), the betrothal, or the wedding itself.

The scroll itself.

M. Line 31 特別製造

Do you think this means specially made for marriage contracts?

I would interpret it as "custom made".

[SimL]

Hi duaaagiii,

Thanks for your detailed answers! I could only see them properly today, as I don’t have internet at home. I'll take them home and study them thoroughly for the next couple of days.

The "analysis document" is looking really good now - it's been updated with all the responses except this latest set. I look forward to incorporating them, finishing off the document, and posting a copy to both my father and my uncle at the end of the week.

Once again, thank you very much.

Regards,
Sim

[SimL]

>> Yes-- in fact, there is a name for this type of line break: 平抬

I noticed that line 02 (referring to Tan Hong Lim) has it also. I had to laugh a bit at line 02... the factual content of the line is "Tan Hong Lim", but there are 3 characters preceding and 9 characters following his name to show respect for him!

I have now just noticed that line 01 (referring to Lee Choon Kheng) is lower than all other lines in the text. Would that also be a reflection of expressing humility on the part of Lee Choon Kheng? Is there a special name for this too?

-----

>> Both 儀 and 禮 mean "manners" as well as "gifts"
>> -- they can be treated as a single concept.

I fond this very intriguing from an English-speaking perspective. However, I had come across this once in Chinese (specifically Hokkien). In connection with my family history project, my mother told me about her wedding engagement ceremony. There was a Chinese pastor presiding at the ceremony, and the custom at the time was that one didn't pay the pastor for doing this sort of thing (perhaps one still doesn't). Instead, one gave him an "ang pau" as a present, to thank him for his services (and to cover some of the costs he incurred coming to the venue etc). My mother explained that this present was called "le1 soo3". This was a word which I knew, but up to that time I had only known it to mean "manners", as in "u3 le1 soo3" (having manners) and "bo7 le1 soo3" (having no manners, rude). So, this was the first time I had come across a word which could mean both "present, gift", and "manners". It was very interesting to see it again in the discussion here.

Also, when my father was young, he and his siblings used to be taken to see a Chinese "sin-seenn" whenever they were sick. Here too, the "sin-seenn" was never paid, but was also given an "ang pau". In this case however, I don't know if it was also called a "le soo".

-----

>> Does 文定 actually mean "betrothal", or is
>> that derived from the context? => Yes.

Yes it actually means betrothal, or yes, it is derived from context...? [Sorry!]

-----

>> The character is 鑒 in the pictures you sent me.

LOL! As in the case of 艮 instead of 良, I have no excuse for this other than oversight! I checked the handwritten transcriptions made by both TranslatorA and TranslatorB, and they both have 鑒 too. I must have missed it when checking by zooming in on the photos. Really glad you picked it up.

Regards,
Sim.

[duaaagiii]

I have now just noticed that line 01 (referring to Lee Choon Kheng) is lower than all other lines in the text. Would that also be a reflection of expressing humility on the part of Lee Choon Kheng? Is there a special name for this too?

I think so, but I don't know the name for it.

Actually, I think I got it wrong; it should be 雙抬 instead of 平抬, because those lines are raised by two full spaces. It is symbolic of looking up to the recipient.

>> Does 文定 actually mean "betrothal", or is
>> that derived from the context? => Yes.

Yes it actually means betrothal, or yes, it is derived from context...? [Sorry!]

Haha... Sorry, it actually means betrothal.

[SimL]

Duaaagiii and Mark,

Just to some up: thank you both very much for your help, both here and directly by mail.

Take care!
Sim.