Appropriated hanji for che/chiah--e5/chia/chit/chiah-nih8

[FutureSpy]

Well, you can buy them from a bookstore in Taiwan called 台灣ê店: http://www.taiouan.com.tw . They ship overseas (got mine from there) and they accept credit card payments. They also have someone who can speak English in case you don't speak Chinese (like me). You can also buy them directly from Maryknoll as well, but the only payment method they accept is bank transfer. As for your question on usefulness, let's wait other's replies

[amhoanna]

Actually, I haven't find any languages I was as interested as in Hokkien in many years. I hope I won't quit so soon... ^^

Well, good luck. For me, Hoklo is an addiction.

so associating words to hanji makes it easier to me to learn them, even if it's just some random character.

You're not alone. I've been trying to learn a little Japanese, and seeing the kanji helps me tremendously even when it's konyomi or whatever it's called, native Japanese words not etymologically related to the Chinese.

The point is that even today calques like 便所 seem to be widespread, and my bet is that they aren't known outside Taiwan. They could go perfectly as Hokkien words as they are pronounced the Taiwanese way.

So U mean the minority of Sino-Japanese calques which are not shared with other Hoklo dialects? Such examples do exist. Off the top of my head, I'd say there's not a lot of them. Also, there's always a chance that non-TWnese will understand a TWnese word b/c they heard it in a TWnese soap opera.

Strangely enough, the word for BATHROOM in rural areas of Ciangciu is also piānsó· 便所. I'm guessing it's pure coincidence. In Amoy and Coanciu I wasn't able to make myself understood using 便所; in Soaⁿboe it was Cantonese to the rescue.

Should I try looking at Xiamen to find more genuine equivalents?

The hunt for genuine Hoklo vocab. I don't think Amoy vocab is any more authentic than TWnese vocab. Hoklo in China has generally been subject to the depredations of Mandarin for many years. Realize that many Chinese Hoklophones are able to read Std Chinese in Hoklo pronunciation, while TWnese and M'sians are unable to do this -- they are just unable to associate kanji with Hoklo. Ironically this has accelerated the Mandarization of Hoklo in China. The other day I was watching a Ciangciu clip on Youtube and a news host commented on something being "cin gû" -- gû being a calque from Mandarin niú 牛 meaning COOL or something like that.

The Klang area of M'sia might be one hotbed for genuine Hoklo vocab. The top spot in my mind is Bagansiapiapi on Sumatra, home of one of our foreros. But a lot of genuine vocab can be reconstructed just by comparing a wide range of dialects. Poss. even more interesting is "genuinely-coined new vocab".

Interesting analogy. A little bit off-topic, but since we're in: does 汕尾/海豐 dialects retain any linguistic phenomenon lost in Hokkien?

I don't know that dialect well enough to say for sure, but I would tend to say: few if any. Haihong Haklau is basically derived from Ciangciu Hoklo, with 400 yrs of influence from Teochew on top of that. In general, the Coanciu dialects are more conservative than the Ciangciu dialects. Teochew also seems to hv gone through a long process of vocab levelling with other Sino languages, poss. Hakka and some kind of Cantonese. But I'm sure someone well-versed in Haihong Haklau could find something there that's been lost elsewhere.

In short, what I feel about Galician and Portuguese is that Portuguese and Galician are different pieces of the same puzzle, with Spanish replacing different (and sometimes the same) pieces on both sides, and the highest galeguity degree being possible to achieve by mixing some of Portuguese and Galician pieces... Other than that, IMHO we (Portuguese speakers and Galician people) still speak pretty much the same language

What a word, "galeguity"! I think I know exactly what U're talking about -- a pure Galego could be achieved by casting out Spanish elements in favor of Portuguese ones. A pure Hoklo or Hokkien could also be achieved by mixing and matching btw dialects while casting out pieces from Mandarin, Japanese, Malay, Tagalog, etc.

Is there an easy way to get a copy of the Maryknoll books from Penang? And would it be any use to a Penang speaker? Just wondering because the last time I looked into it it seemed rather complicated.

I'm guessing the mainstream TWnese online bookstores don't carry it, so the 台湾个店 route might be easiest. I've never ordered from them online, but they seem to be a reliable merchant. And they're probably not in this business for the money.

[amhoanna]

As for the usefulness of the Maryknoll books to a Penang speaker... The short answer is that it'd probably be about as useful to U as a high-quality Penang Hokkien txtbk would be to a Mainstream Taiwanese speaker. There are hardly any Japanisms in the Maryknoll, as far as I can recall. If U really start speaking like Maryknoll, other people will probably think to themselves, "Wow, he talks really sinkheh for a young guy."

Since U're a native spkr of a different kind of Hokkien, U might wanna just buy the last, most advanced book in the series first and have a look.

[FutureSpy]

If there were a few people from a representative number of different Hokkien speaking areas interested on Hokkien and enthusiastic enough to buy the idea, constructing a Standard Hokkien wouldn't be impossible. A starting point would be making lists of high frequency words, defining how flexible (or strict) that Standard would be and what would be the goals of that standardization. I just don't know how complicated that would get due to my lack of linguistic knowledge, but even if there were as few as, say, 6 or 7 natives taking part in such a project, I think things would kickoff. Of course, that would end up being a completely elitist project as people outside that very small online community would still use their own dialects, but what if these few speakers agreed to communicate each other online using that Standard Hokkien, perhaps things could get bigger by the time and a true Hokkien Standard would arise and serve as a bridge to speakers from different Hokkien speaking regions. Many minority languages are hardly spoken, but are vibrant online. Perhaps it's too much of idealism from my part? If people don't even speak Hokkien as-is, would they ever take some time to learn something of possibly no use? And of course, the rest of speakers would resist saying that it's artificial and has nothing to do with what they speak. There isn't even Hokkien writers to agree to write in that Standard, nor public for Hokkien books. Let alone most speakers can't even read/write in Hokkien. Now that I come to think, if Hokkien speakers could write properly in Hokkien with the right hanji, wouldn't that be enough to put Hokkien speakers together? Wouldn't then a Standard arise naturally this way? Okay, sorry, I'm starting to get sleepy now.

So U mean the minority of Sino-Japanese calques which are not shared with other Hoklo dialects? Such examples do exist. Off the top of my head, I'd say there's not a lot of them. Also, there's always a chance that non-TWnese will understand a TWnese word b/c they heard it in a TWnese soap opera.

But aren't they representative enough in the sense they make up an important part of our modern life style?

Now 便所 being used somewhere else makes me wonder where Japanese got it from. Perhaps it represented some old concept (meaning the word was borrowed from some Chinese dialect) which got obsolete, and they simply assigned that word to a new modern meaning? What if Ciangciu people coincidently made the same?

What a word, "galeguity"! I think I know exactly what U're talking about -- a pure Galego could be achieved by casting out Spanish elements in favor of Portuguese ones. A pure Hoklo or Hokkien could also be achieved by mixing and matching btw dialects while casting out pieces from Mandarin, Japanese, Malay, Tagalog, etc.

LOL, I didn't coin the word. It actually exists in Galician: "galeguidade". I just forgot to add quotes to it. But you got the idea. Not a "pure Hoklo", but let's put it in another way: "a purer Hoklo"... Personally I think there's nothing wrong with loans from other languages the way they used to be incorporated in the past and languages influenced one another. It's different from what happens today, where the dominant languages simply swallow down the submissive ones: in other words, a one-way street.

Okay, you guys can beat me for being off-topic, but I know this Singaporean guy who... whatever, lemme quote him:

And in the army, it's you have a good chance of hearing it too. As last time, there used to be certain battalions where the people speak purely hokkien to each other. Even if some of them may not be of hokkien descent.

...and he's picking up Hokkien there. So there's still some hope for Singapore!

[amhoanna]

Personally I think there's nothing wrong with loans from other languages the way they used to be incorporated in the past and languages influenced one another. It's different from what happens today, where the dominant languages simply swallow down the submissive ones: in other words, a one-way street.

¡Eso! Agree, 100%.

I esp. like how MY/SG Hokkien has taken in a lot of Teochew and Malay elements. Harry Lee got a kick out of calling Sg Hoklo "an adulterated Hokkien-Teochew mix", but what could be better for Hokkien and Teochew than to adulterate each other and grow?!

but I know this Singaporean guy who... whatever, lemme quote him:

And in the army, it's you have a good chance of hearing it too. As last time, there used to be certain battalions where the people speak purely hokkien to each other. Even if some of them may not be of hokkien descent.

...and he's picking up Hokkien there. So there's still some hope for Singapore!

And if there's hope for Singapore, then there's hope for Hoklo.

The idea that the poor and dispossessed should "fight for their rights" ... is much better developed in Singapore than elsewhere in the Hoklosphere. Elsewhere, the old (loosely) Confucianist idea is that the poor and dispossessed should be ashamed of themselves, and should submit to the rich and powerful in hopes of becoming rich someday.

The military: always an interesting element. My guess is that military service has played a HUGE role in the acceptance of Mandarin in Taiwan, and in building tolerance for Hoklo among the 49er Chinese of TW. It's also a powerful indoctrination in ROC identity. Guys who've done their time in the ROC armed forces seem to be unable to relate to China (PRC) wholeheartedly -- there's always this animosity there, this vague, "wanton" desire for revenge.

Now 便所 being used somewhere else makes me wonder where Japanese got it from. Perhaps it represented some old concept (meaning the word was borrowed from some Chinese dialect) which got obsolete, and they simply assigned that word to a new modern meaning? What if Ciangciu people coincidently made the same?

This is the most likely explanation, as far as I can see.

So U mean the minority of Sino-Japanese calques which are not shared with other Hoklo dialects? ...

But aren't they representative enough in the sense they make up an important part of our modern life style?

Maybe. Maybe not. Psychologically, they're very important to some people. Loanwords from JPnese form the backbone of the argument that "TWnese and Banlamese are two different languages". But how many JPnese loans are there in TWnese Hoklo that don't exist side by side with a commonly used native word or Mandarin loan? Of the hundreds or thousands that fit this description, I'd venture to say that most are either pan-Asian-Pacific Sino-Japanese calques OR have to do with 20th cen. technology, such as the parts of a car or motorbike, or the word for MOTORBIKE itself: o·tóbái, or the word for LIGHTER: làità.

But, language aside, I think the JPnese influence on the Sino-Taiwanese psyche was profound. The idea that any invention or concept dating to the late 19th century or later requires an English loanword ... is very "Meiji". Also the approach to sex and the sexes.

[FutureSpy]

I esp. like how MY/SG Hokkien has taken in a lot of Teochew and Malay elements. Harry Lee got a kick out of calling Sg Hoklo "an adulterated Hokkien-Teochew mix", but what could be better for Hokkien and Teochew than to adulterate each other and grow?!

You mean they influenced each other, but still exist as separated languages (assuming, of course, both as separated Minnan languages) in S'pore/M'sia? Or they merged to form a hybrid language (perhaps with Hokkien dominancy)?

The military: always an interesting element. My guess is that military service has played a HUGE role in the acceptance of Mandarin in Taiwan, and in building tolerance for Hoklo among the 49er Chinese of TW. It's also a powerful indoctrination in ROC identity. Guys who've done their time in the ROC armed forces seem to be unable to relate to China (PRC) wholeheartedly -- there's always this animosity there, this vague, "wanton" desire for revenge.

Well, Taiwanese people were brainwashed (like everywhere else; time has changed, people is well-educated but still easily manipulated.. if not gov, it's the medias.. okay, end of my disgressing :\) by Japanese once, and then by ROC. Anyway, remaining as a separated nation would of course be benefitial to all Taiwanese languages. Language policy in Taiwan is far from acceptable, but of course, what they've got now is better than nothing. I just feel Taiwanese Government fail to acknowledge Taiwan as a multilingual society, and things don't seem to be going to change. S'pore isn't what I'd call a model of multilingual society, but things there seem to somewhat work (except by the "Speak Mandarin" thing and by government refusal to recognize Hokkien as an official language). I see lots of claims that Taiwanese, Hakka and other minority (I hate the term "aboriginal") languages are being taught at Taiwanese schools for a number of years already, but looking at youngsters in Taiwan, if they -EVER- received any education in mother tongue, it was indeed not effective at all. I don't know what they're doing, but something is really wrong there... [ While I'm writing that, many minority languages in Brazil are also dying out. My grandparents "dialect" is also dying out in Japan. Their state is comparable or even worse than that from many "aboriginal" languages in Taiwan. It's so easy to talk about others while you're probably not doing homework either ]

Maybe. Maybe not. Psychologically, they're very important to some people. Loanwords from JPnese form the backbone of the argument that "TWnese and Banlamese are two different languages". But how many JPnese loans are there in TWnese Hoklo that don't exist side by side with a commonly used native word or Mandarin loan? Of the hundreds or thousands that fit this description, I'd venture to say that most are either pan-Asian-Pacific Sino-Japanese calques OR have to do with 20th cen. technology, such as the parts of a car or motorbike, or the word for MOTORBIKE itself: o·tóbái, or the word for LIGHTER: làità.

Okay, but my hope is that somewhere in Hoklosphere, new terms for at least some of these concepts and new things have been coined based on Hokkien native terms. Mandarin loans and calques are as bad as Japanese loans and calques.

I don't know, when I think about minority languages, I just feel so... I don't know, sad? Since nothing is being done in favour of Hokkien by governments, and most speakers seem to just don't care about it (I once looked down at my grandparents' dialect so I know that feeling), I feel powerless, but I know I could do something for them as well instead of whining here. I don't know, I'm just stupid

Also the approach to sex and the sexes.

No idea 'bout that. So if you could briefly comment on that...

[amhoanna]

You mean they influenced each other, but still exist as separated languages (assuming, of course, both as separated Minnan languages) in S'pore/M'sia? Or they merged to form a hybrid language (perhaps with Hokkien dominancy)?

Niuc would be the man to answer this. I know when I went to Sg, sometimes I could eavesdrop reasonably, and other times the accents sounded wild and I mostly 掠無球 lia̍h bô kiû. I think in the 2nd case the people were actually speaking Teochew. This happened esp. on the bus to Sinsoaⁿ (新山 / Johor). My guess is that both languages hv been shot through with the other, and the mix gets more thorough w/ each generation.

Okay, but my hope is that somewhere in Hoklosphere, new terms for at least some of these concepts and new things have been coined based on Hokkien native terms. Mandarin loans and calques are as bad as Japanese loans and calques.

Agreed. The people most active in coining new but "genuine" Hoklo words seem to mostly be in certain masculine subcultures such as the "import" racing scene, the construction industry, manufacturing, etc. Also, dialects differ in vocab and any one dialect might happen to use a "native"-type word for any given thing. I like to "collect" such words and start using them myself. We may or may not hv the clout to spread them, but at least we can use them.

An old discussion about the Mandarization of Tai Hok, for those that rd Mand:
http://gaaan.com/Taiwanese?p=77047
http://gaaan.com/Taiwanese?p=77090

Some argue that loanwords are good, they strengthen a language, "just look at English." Well, the Anglos had to get rid of Norman rule and stem the tide of Norman French loanwords... If the Taiwanese want to "do as the Saxons did", they better start by getting rid of ROC rule and cutting down on the ROC-Mand. loans.

but looking at youngsters in Taiwan, if they -EVER- received any education in mother tongue, it was indeed not effective at all.

They are scheduling "mother tongue" classes once or twice a week. What they really need to do is teach history, geography, geometry and physics using the mother tongue. That would fix things.

Taiwanese people were brainwashed (like everywhere else; time has changed, people is well-educated but still easily manipulated.. if not gov, it's the medias.. okay, end of my disgressing :\) by Japanese once, and then by ROC.

Yes.

Anyway, remaining as a separated nation would of course be benefitial to all Taiwanese languages.

This is hard to say, although "emotionally" I agree. Confucius never said one nation must have one language, but every Confucianist polity is intensely monolingual, 不約而同. There is something about "other languages in our midst" that infuriates Confucianist leaders and yes-men intelligentsia. De-Confucianization would be beneficial to all Taiwanese languages. I acknowledge that this view may piss off many foreros, in hopes that it'll piss them off less.

when I think about minority languages, I just feel so... I don't know, sad? Since nothing is being done in favour of Hokkien by governments, and most speakers seem to just don't care about it (I once looked down at my grandparents' dialect so I know that feeling),

Well, it gives the fighters something to fight for.

Also the approach to sex and the sexes.

No idea 'bout that. So if you could briefly comment on that...

It's hard for me to "briefly" comment on this, but I'll try. Traditional TW Yam Hoklo culture is clearly more "sexist" than the 49er Republican culture, partly b/c the latter made its breaks with tradition two, three generations ago. In a way, young women have been voting with their feet for 30, 40 yrs. Yet it seems that the TW Yam Hoklo culture is also more sexist than Hoklo culture anywhere else. By all accounts, JP and KR culture are also intensely sexist... My "theory" is that the Japanese indoctrination intensified and hardened the damn thing in TW as well, although the groping incidents are +/- unheard of, and thank the gods, b/c the idea of getting off on groping a girl on the subway just seems so stupid. Still, the culture is just so oppressive to women, mostly in passive ways. If she's single and she's getting laid, then she's a slut or a whore. Worthless. If she's married, her husband will work 60 hr weeks and spend his "free time" drinking with the boss. (This is somewhat true in Republican culture too.) ... One girl in our class in jr hi in TW had a beautiful figure at age 13, with true tetonas by Asia Pacific standards, although nothing out of the ordinary in an Afro-Euro-Arab gene pool. And guess what, the guys in the class would make fun of her all the time for having this blessing, in a friendly way, but enough to give her a hard time. Soah m̄ cai boé ·á i kè hō· pe̍hlâng. (Años después se casó con un blanco.) I think all this "un-ease and dysfunction" partly explains the fixation on food... And of course the food is pretty good!

Another lode of good videos for Hoklo learning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq4_HE7i ... AAAAAAAAAA

Happy hunting.

[FutureSpy]

Some argue that loanwords are good, they strengthen a language, "just look at English." Well, the Anglos had to get rid of Norman rule and stem the tide of Norman French loanwords... If the Taiwanese want to "do as the Saxons did", they better start by getting rid of ROC rule and cutting down on the ROC-Mand. loans.

Agreed. Actually, at today's rate, since most speakers are at least bilingual in Mandarin and Hokkien, they'll conveniently use Mandarin words pronounced the Hokkien way when they don't know how to say it in Hokkien and hardly any newly coined will get widespread. In Catalonia, the same happens. Catalan is probably one of the (if not THE) healthiest minority language in Europe. Nowadays it's mother tongue of only 50% of Catalan people, meaning that the remainder have Spanish as first language. Nevertheless, nearly everyone educated in Catalonia can speak and understand it because of what they call "immersion". All classes are in Catalan, except Spanish. [Well, of course that doesn't always happens: a friend of mine had some classes in Spanish 'cos most people in her class were hispanohablantes (herself included).] Even that isn't enough to keep Spanish from degrading Catalan. The sad truth is that most Catalan people do write bad Catalan, copy Spanish constructions even when a Catalan construction does exists, and their accent gets more Spanized with every generation. New terms are coined by TermCat. Some new terms do catch and even end up replacing the Spanish word, but sometimes it's too late for them to coin a Catalan term and people simply ignore it. After a few years, they end up accepting the Spanish one. In the other hand, other languages scuh as Guarani Mbyá, spoken in Southern Brazil and parts of Argentina and Paraguai, despite some Portuguese and Spanish influence, do seem to actively coin new terms. I don't know much about them, so no idea of what's their secret! haha

They are scheduling "mother tongue" classes once or twice a week. What they really need to do is teach history, geography, geometry and physics using the mother tongue. That would fix things.

We do have something complicated here. Taiwan is multilingual, there wouldn't be enough teachers for all subjects in each language. So even if they were to establish a 50/50 bilingual education in Mandarin + another language, what would be the right choice? The majoritarian one doesn't seem just right, 'cos say, in some Tainan regions (okay, these are assumptions as I don't know much about what's ethnic distribution in Taiwan) Taiwanese would be the most obvious choice, but what about languages such as Paiwan for an instance? Okay, historical justice isn't way to go, but leaving them off 'cos they're a minority in their own land doesn't seem right either. What about somewhere where Taiwanese, Hakka and other "aboriginal" languages are spoken? If some parents complaint about they children taking Hokkien or Hakka classes, how would they react if they were to establish some of the "aboriginal" languages as instruction languages? If you or others have any views about how to get over these hurdles, or even if you don't, I'd like to hear from you guys. I just can't think of any acceptable solution for that.

It's hard for me to "briefly" comment on this, but I'll try.

You don't have to just comment it "briefly" if you don't want to. I just think some people don't like having to explain things, but from what I've seen on some threads, not your case at all . I often exchange emails or PMs with people, and mine are always very very long. People just end up running away (it starts off with a "Sorry, I've been busy" and simply stop replying at stop point... )

Traditional TW Yam Hoklo culture is clearly more "sexist" than the 49er Republican culture, partly b/c the latter made its breaks with tradition two, three generations ago. In a way, young women have been voting with their feet for 30, 40 yrs. Yet it seems that the TW Yam Hoklo culture is also more sexist than Hoklo culture anywhere else. By all accounts, JP and KR culture are also intensely sexist... My "theory" is that the Japanese indoctrination intensified and hardened the damn thing in TW as well, although the groping incidents are +/- unheard of, and thank the gods, b/c the idea of getting off on groping a girl on the subway just seems so stupid. Still, the culture is just so oppressive to women, mostly in passive ways. If she's single and she's getting laid, then she's a slut or a whore. Worthless. If she's married, her husband will work 60 hr weeks and spend his "free time" drinking with the boss. (This is somewhat true in Republican culture too.) ...

That's interesting. I don't know enough about Taiwanese people to argue, nor do I know Chinese or Singaporean people to have a good comparison point on that. Anyway, if you hadn't mentioned you were talking about Taiwan, I'd instinctively think it was all about Japan. LOL. That also makes me remember all that "Oh I'm already in my # (put here something around 25 and 28) and am still single" thing in Japan. I guess it's not anymore like that, but that's just stupid. Like, if she doesn't want to get married now, why should she do that anyway? Anyway, I was born in 巴西, so talking about sexist mentality here is just redundant. When it's carnival, I simply shut myself in my room and just ignore what's going on everywhere else. People still argue "Oh, it's our culture!". Meh. And people here... Well, you see women obsessed about their look (for what's sake?), and guys have to have all the time the ol' same futile chitchat about how a chick is hot like if she was just a piece of meat.

[amhoanna]

Taiwan is multilingual, there wouldn't be enough teachers for all subjects in each language. So even if they were to

[amhoanna]

Taiwan is multilingual, there wouldn't be enough teachers for all subjects in each language. So even if they were to

Right, a lot of other problems crop up in practice. My take on this is that most of the languages spoken on the island, arguably even Hakka, are hindered from becoming "full-service languages" by a lack of numbers and a long-running lack of scope during the industrial era and beyond. Hoklo doesn't face a numbers problem yet, and doesn't face a scope problem on the same order of magnitude as Paiwan, for example. Maybe only Hoklo is saveable??

I tend to believe that very few Hoklophone parents in TW or anywhere would agree to have their kids learn geometry and economics in Hoklo. It's just "not the way things have been done". Preserving the status quo, whatever it is, is of the essence. The inability of young Hokkiens and Taiwanese to speak good Hoklo is a change in the status quo, and thus bad, but to fix things by changing the political order or overhauling education is simply "too hot" for the liking of most Hoklophones. And now that Hoklo has been on the decline for decades, most Hokkiens are "used to it" and don't really mind it anymore. Even the mainstream of the "Hoklo language movement" in Taiwan is mostly about "how can we change things w/o changing anything"? These people argue in favor of one extra Hoklo session a week for elementary school students, or a State-funded Hoklo TV station ... as if it would hv any impact.

What is really needed is a paradigm shift. Historically, the only way to shift the paradigm in a Hoklo -- I hesitate to say Asian Pacific -- society, is to take over the power structure by force and impose it top-down. If someone of great cunning and charisma were to take over Taiwan and impose Hoklo as the language of education and government in all traditionally Hoklophone cities and counties, there would be cries of foul play for a few yrs, but 10 yrs down the line most Hoklo parents would be unable to imagine their kids being schooled in any language but Hoklo, just as they are currently unable to imagine schooling in any language but Mandarin.

Would this-all be good or bad? That's a philosophical discussion.

if you hadn't mentioned you were talking about Taiwan, I'd instinctively think it was all about Japan.

Right! And as for Brasil and Latin America ... yet another can of worms. I feel that the issues are very different on that side.

And now, I must go, as I've been very busy.