Singular root of lán?

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: Singular root of lán?

Postby niuc » Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:14 pm

amhoanna wrote:Niuc, goânlâi Bâgán pún ciong chù kóng cò "lāi", kah Tiôciu-ōe kāng. 8)

Amhoanna, ū’iáⁿ në! Cánghng’a mng- cìt’ê Tiôciu pîng’iú, i māsī anni kóng. :idea:
Bāgán’uē “laī/naī” ingkai sī tuì “chùlaī” laî ë. Nāsī “chù” niā, gún sī īnglaî kóng kuikingkuiking ê chù (the building itself).

I also benefited from Niuc's answer regarding the use of gún. I learned or thought I learned somewhere that "gún lāupē" is used whenever there's at least one sibling, but I guess it's used w/ or w/o siblings.

My answer is valid for my variant. May be what you learned is valid for some other variants? :mrgreen:

My "interpretation" of gún vs. goá ê -- Niuc, pls correct if off -- is that gún is used when it refers to something that the speaker is part of something with. "Gún bó͘" would be correct b/c the speaker and his wife are part of something -- a marriage, a coupling, a ความรัก. :mrgreen:

Yeah, you explain it better on this aspect! 8) So for human relationships, gún is the norm. However, for other things, it is more ambiguous. For big stuffs, gún is used to mean both “my” and “our”, while “guá ê” is used to emphasize “my” e.g. “gún ê tiàm” vs “guá ê tiàm”.

On the other hand, I've also heard "goá ê bó͘" used. It seems to be a "marked form" with an emphasis on the speaker's possession of his wife, e.g. "Cò mihⁿ àmsî ca̍p tiám khà lâi chē góa ê bó͘?"

Yes, I concur.

Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: Singular root of lán?

Postby Abun » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:25 pm

amhoanna wrote:My "interpretation" of gún vs. goá ê -- Niuc, pls correct if off -- is that gún is used when it refers to something that the speaker is part of something with. "Gún bó͘" would be correct b/c the speaker and his wife are part of something -- a marriage, a coupling, a ความรัก. :mrgreen: On the other hand, I've also heard "goá ê bó͘" used. It seems to be a "marked form" with an emphasis on the speaker's possession of his wife, e.g. "Cò mihⁿ àmsî ca̍p tiám khà lâi chē góa ê bó͘?"

niuc wrote:Yeah, you explain it better on this aspect! 8) So for human relationships, gún is the norm. However, for other things, it is more ambiguous. For big stuffs, gún is used to mean both “my” and “our”, while “guá ê” is used to emphasize “my” e.g. “gún ê tiàm” vs “guá ê tiàm”.

Guân-lâi sĩ án-ne--ooh. Án-ne tshin-tshiũnn sĩ kah Hân-gí tsiok tsiap-kĩn--ê hiān-siõng. Hân-gí nā-sĩ siũnn-bueh piáu-ta̍t kuan-hē tsiânn kĩn, tō sĩm-tsì tĩ-leh lâng-miâ tíng mã ẽ-tàng iōng siong-tong-î "gún"--ê ho̍k-sòo tāi-bîng-sû: 우리 미진 씨 "gún Bí-tsin sió-tsiá", sĩ piáu-sī tsit-ê Bí-tsin sió-tsiá kah guá sĩ sio̍k-tĩ kâng-tsi̍t-ê in-group, thiann--khí-lâi tshin-tshiũnn sĩ tsi̍t-ke lâng, ah thiann-uē-lâng lí tō sĩ out-group--lah.

xng
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Singular root of lán?

Postby xng » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:00 pm

Abun wrote:While reading Ang Ui-jins 臺灣禮俗語典, I stumbled on his explanation for the (Taiwanese) Hokkien plural personal pronouns:
北方的「們」實際就是「家」的意思。本作「門」,如「門風」即「家」風。客家話複數以「兜」(teu)表示,「兜」相當於閩雸語的tau,家也。但閩南語以「等」(tán)來表示。詳細的考證,參見拙著『談彎河佬語聲調研究』第五章「聲調研究在語源學尚的運用例」[I haven't read this one yet and also am not able to look the part in question up right now because I don't have it here],我現在僅提出結論如下:
汝等〔lí--tán〕 --> 〔lí--n〕 恁〔lín〕 (你們)
伊等〔i--tán〕 --> 〔i--n〕 亻因〔in〕 (他們)
我等〔guá--tán〕 --> 〔guá--n〕 阮〔guán〕 (我們)
余等〔lá--tán〕 --> 〔lá--n〕 咱〔lán〕 (咱們)
〔á--tán〕 --> 〔á--n〕 俺〔án〕 (咱們)
[Note: I changed his transcription system to POJ because his involved superscript-x's for indicating the "hanging" light tone, which I didn't know how to enter, therefore I used "--"]

(source: Ang Ui-jin 洪惟仁: Taiwan lisu yudian 臺灣禮俗語典 [Dictionary of Taiwanese Etiquettes and Customs]. Taipei: Independence Evening 自立晚報 (1986), 161.)

While I am somewhat doubtful about his 等-theory (there are the versions with lâng in other variants after all), it is obvious that there is a pattern of pluralisation by adding [-n], which is of course nothing new to me.

However he suggests a root lá (余) for the 1st person plural inclusive 咱 as well and this is new to me (even disregarding the character which I'm pretty sure can't be the "correct" one; although 康熙 has a reading with a dental initial (同都切, tôo), this is only used in a place name of the Xiongnu). Has anybody ever heard of such a word?



Interesting, I think he's correct about 等 because the meaning and the tone also matches.


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