Benzi/Original character

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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amhoanna
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by amhoanna » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:31 am

Yes, Niuc, tau for HOME is core vocab in TW. Is there a different word for this down south???

This tau also shows up in the phrase kha1 tau1, = co2 iu7 = THEREABOUTS. Seems like no one middleaged or younger ever uses khatau though.

In TW, pai2 is the "alpha" (most preferred) word for Chinese chu3 次, with kai2 and kai3 a close second and third. These are Sinitic (回) via JPese. After that comes tau2. Chu3 doesn't seem to be part of the vernacular, but I think I've heard it used in China. I've never heard koe3... Makes sense, tho. Sure sounds like Hoklo. 8)
amhoanna
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by amhoanna » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:51 am

One more thing, Yelei. A guy named Tadpolenese among others has a great paper up on the web about how all Banlam-Teochew dialects hv low "running" 陽 tones and higher running 陰 tones. You can google it. I'm tech-impaired these days.
niuc
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by niuc » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:46 pm

Thanks, Amhoanna.
amhoanna wrote:Yes, Niuc, tau for HOME is core vocab in TW. Is there a different word for this down south???
In Bagan-ue, we also use gún/lín/in-tau for my/our/your/his/her/their home. Another word we use is nāi, e.g. gún-nāi, which I suspect is a contraction of gún-chù-lāi.
This tau also shows up in the phrase kha1 tau1, = co2 iu7 = THEREABOUTS. Seems like no one middleaged or younger ever uses khatau though.
Interesting! I had never heard of this. We say sin-pi*-tau 身邊兜 for human context and hù-kūn 附近 for others, or just pi*-áh 邊仔 for both, depends on context.
Yeleixingfeng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by Yeleixingfeng » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:12 pm

amhoanna wrote:One more thing, Yelei. A guy named Tadpolenese among others has a great paper up on the web about how all Banlam-Teochew dialects hv low "running" 陽 tones and higher running 陰 tones. You can google it. I'm tech-impaired these days.
Believe me, I tried my best to understand Tadpolonese. (The song 《家後》 was nice though.) Maybe I lack of professional knowledge of Hokkien, I merely got through the standing-running tones part. (i.e. sandhi'ed tones being the real tone and the changed tone is actually the previously-known original tone.)

Thanks though, your recommend answered my Yin vs Yang question. ^^
Yeleixingfeng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by Yeleixingfeng » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:39 pm

By the way, why didn't anyone suggest 於 to be the ti7 (at/在)? www.chineseetymology.org said so, and it is seldom(not never) wrong.

And, strangely there are scarce 反切 sources to both 于 and 於. The nearest I got all pointed 於 to be the older form of 烏, hence sharing the pronunciation.

If not, what is then the literal pronunciation for 於(于)?
Ah-bin
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by Ah-bin » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:11 am

the literary (not literal) pronunciations of the character, according to Campbell's Dictionary of the Amoy Vernacular is "o•" and "u", but he doesn't explain the difference. I believe it is "u" in the Chhian chu bun or Sam chu keng

反切 is based on Late Middle Chinese, and therefore can only provide accurate information about literary pronunciations. 於 is not used in colloquial Hokkien except for when reading out texts that have words like 於是.

I went to check Chinese etymology website provides information about the origin of characters, not the origin of spoken words. Word etymology is not as well-studied as character etymology in Chinese, and involves a knowledge of early Chinese phonology, and other related languages like Tibetan and Burmese.

I doubt that that website is providing 於 as the character for ti, it is just providing it as a translation. I checked 肉 just to make sure, and I notice he has the word "bah" attached to it for Taiwanese. So I think you can believe his judgements on the origin of characters, but you shouldn't take the inclusion of unrelated Hokkien words as an indication that these are the original characters.

As far as I know, there is no serious website devoted to the etymology of the spoken word in Sinitic languages.
amhoanna
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by amhoanna » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:33 am

In Bagan-ue, we also use gún/lín/in-tau for my/our/your/his/her/their home. Another word we use is nāi, e.g. gún-nāi, which I suspect is a contraction of gún-chù-lāi.
Interesting, Niuc. I think in Teochew they say tng2-khir3-lai7 (-lai6?) instead of Banlamese tng2-khir3-chu3, at least in the context of GOING BACK HOME TO SEE MY PARENTS --- that's where I heard it, in 深圳 Chimcun, yet another port city chock full of Hokkien-Teochew speakers.

Yelei, keep on reading Tadpolenese and U will be a professional Hoklologist in no time. :P

Another interesting thing related to punji/siokji that comes to mind now. Java is called Zhua3-wa1 in Mand, which seems kind of unphonetic, but Zhua3-wa1 no doubt comes from the written form 爪哇, which in turn no doubt comes from Hokkien Jiau5-a1 (tones right?)... Even though jiau5 isn't etymologically related (seems like) to General Sinitic 爪. Makes sense to use the character for jiau5, though, since it's a 象形 character anyway. Anyway, it's kind of like if U had a kid and s/he asked U, "Daddy, why is Chicago called Zhijiage?" And the answer leads thru Cantonese. Except with Jiau5-a1, there's one more link to write home about, which is that jiau5 爪 is an "extra-etymological" connection from a Sino standpoint, like Japanese naka for 中.
Yeleixingfeng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by Yeleixingfeng » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:28 pm

amhoanna wrote:
In Bagan-ue, we also use gún/lín/in-tau for my/our/your/his/her/their home.
Another interesting thing related to punji/siokji that comes to mind now. Java is called Zhua3-wa1 in Mand, which seems kind of unphonetic, but Zhua3-wa1 no doubt comes from the written form 爪哇, which in turn no doubt comes from Hokkien Jiau5-a1 (tones right?)... Even though jiau5 isn't etymologically related (seems like) to General Sinitic 爪. Makes sense to use the character for jiau5, though, since it's a 象形 character anyway. Anyway, it's kind of like if U had a kid and s/he asked U, "Daddy, why is Chicago called Zhijiage?" And the answer leads thru Cantonese. Except with Jiau5-a1, there's one more link to write home about, which is that jiau5 爪 is an "extra-etymological" connection from a Sino standpoint, like Japanese naka for 中.
I don't understand - how is 爪 related etymologically to Jawa and how does being 象形 help in the naming?

Actually, I do not support translating names of places using existing Hanzi. I know, the ancients named Alexandria 烏弋山離 - a perfect example of direct transcribing being practised long ago. There are others like Srivijaya or Majapahit. The thing is, why use the same character for beauty and America, flower and England etc. It dilutes the meaning of the existing characters.
I have alternatives to solve this problem, but let's not go there in this post. >.<
amhoanna
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by amhoanna » Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:58 pm

Actually, I do not support translating names of places using existing Hanzi.
Agree. We're probably in the minority. In practice, though, I notice more and more people just using romanizations within their Chinese writing, e.g. for place names in Arabia.
I don't understand - how is 爪 related etymologically to Jawa and how does being 象形 help in the naming?
Well, CLAW in Hoklo is jiau2 or jiau2-a2. Obviously Jawa's got nothing to do with CLAW. This is a case of "translating names of places using existing Hanzi". Now, the character that's usually used for jiau2 is 爪 even though the etymon may not correspond to Canto caau2 / Mand zhua3. But it does seem to make sense to use 爪 for jiau2, just as it makes sense to use 人 for lang5, or 一 for cit8: these are ideographic characters. There's a connection btw character and meaning that doesn't route through any spoken language. By the same token, 川 for Japanese "kawa" makes sense even though "kawa" and Canto chyn1 / Mand chuan1 have no etymological connection. In contrast, 識 for Hoklo "bat" seems to be kind of a tone-deaf siokji. So is 你 for Hoklo "lu/li/ler". Then again, any writing may be better than nothing.
Yeleixingfeng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by Yeleixingfeng » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:18 pm

Making a wild guess.

Could the e(个) meaning 的 be actually a very distorted form of 者? I have compared with Mandarin and Cantonese. Seemingly, 者 and their respective version of 个 rhyme, 的, 嘅, 个. And, grammatically, it makes sense too.
賣肉个 - 賣肉者. be bak e
我个物件 - 我者物件.
We all know that in really old Classical Chinese, such an X的/之X grammar feature was scarce. And yet suddenly in all Sinitic languages such a function emerged being a vital part of the language. Is there some more dialects to compare?
xng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by xng » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:52 pm

Updated list on first page - 拄 and others
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