Benzi/Original character

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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xng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by xng » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:38 am

amhoanna wrote:I've seen it written as 空 by the Hoklorati. Also 空課 for khang1-khoe3. Is there really a connection? I don't know. It might not be of Sinitic origin. I wonder if there are cognates in other languages and, if so, which ones.
The tone of 空 is incorrect.

khang khue should be 功課
Mark Yong
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by Mark Yong » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:16 pm

amhoanna wrote:
I've seen it written as 空 by the Hoklorati.
xng wrote:
The tone of 空 is incorrect.
Well, that depends whether you take tone sandhi into consideration or not. While the morpheme kh'ang (講話音) by itself is pronounced as Tone 1 (頂平), I have heard the kh'ang in the compound kh'ang-th'au pronounced both as Tone 1 (頂平) and Tone 5 (下平) - though, from my observation, the Tone 1 (頂平) usage dominates somewhat.

On that subject, I used to think that kh'ang (hole) was in (講話音), but something I read later (can't recall where, though) has since junked that theory, as it puts the character as .
xng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by xng » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:04 pm

Mark Yong wrote:
On that subject, I used to think that kh'ang (hole) was in (講話音), but something I read later (can't recall where, though) has since junked that theory, as it puts the character as .
Let's assume the tone is correct, what's the justification of using this character versus other Khang ?

空 means emptiness and nothing to do with 'opportunity' 處 (mandarin equivalent).
Mark Yong
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by Mark Yong » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:55 pm

xng,

Firstly, please treat the two subjects, i.e. 本字 for khang-thau (opportunity) and 本字 for khang (hole) separately, to avoid confusing the matter. It may well be that the khang for 'opportunity' is not the same as the one for 'hole'.

The idea of ''finding a hole'' as an allusion to "finding an opportunity" is not impossible. It could be an extended meaning from "finding a hole to escape / go through a wall" - an opportunity to escape, in this instance. And there are the Cantonese equivalents 搵窿路 wán-lûng-lŏu and 搵窿捲 wán-lûng-gyûn.

Saying that ''emptiness has nothing to do with opportunity" as a justification to automatically debunk the suggestion of the relationship, is linguistically overly-dogmatic. One can easily cite a myriad of examples in just about any language where a word, idea or concept is used as an illustration or allusion to something else seemingly as unrelated as chalk and cheese (there, you have an example - how do two objects "chalk" and "cheese" become the equivalent of "different" in English?). How does a spear and a shield (矛盾) become "paradox" (there, you have an example from Classical Chinese, this originated from the 韓非子)?

As you yourself already pointed out in a previous response to my other post on the apparent unrelatedness between "east and west" (東西) and "things", you replied suggesting that it was an extension from "(all things) north, south, east and west", didn't you (and note the parentheses enclosing the phrase "all things")? Okay, so how is this any different? Why is 東西 justifiable and not? Is it simply because the former is in Standard Mandarin and therefore sanctioned de facto? Since when did we accept Mandarin - the youngest of the dialect groups (reaching its final stable form as late as the 16th century) - as the yardstick to validate Hokkien words, especially when Mandarin itself is just as guilty of having its fair share of words whose definitions are equally remote from Classical Chinese?

We cannot outrightly dismiss possibilities, simply because it does not fit our individual perceptions (prejudices?) and knee-jerk reactions on what we deem 'correct' or 'incorrect', especially when we do not have the exhaustive means of proving or otherwise disproving something.

Disclaimer: I am not suggesting that because it exists in Cantonese, therefore it must exist in Hokkien or any other dialect (I stress this because the "Cantonese-is-like-that, therefore Hokkien-is-also-like that" justification is not the correct way to acid-test words). I am only putting forward an example in support of the possibility.
Ah-bin
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by Ah-bin » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:47 am

空 means emptiness and nothing to do with 'opportunity' 處 (mandarin equivalent).
Is that really the equivalent in Mandarin or just the equivalent in xng-talk? Since when did 處 mean anything other than the following in Mandarin?

place,
spot,
location,
locality,
a department in a government, (noun)
to manage,
to handle,
to get along with (verb)

I looked up opportunity in a Mandarin dictionary and got 機會 and 時機.

So I have to come to the conclusion that it must just be xng-talk.....
SimL
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by SimL » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:25 am

xng wrote:空 means emptiness and nothing to do with 'opportunity' 處 (mandarin equivalent).
and
Ah-bin wrote:I looked up opportunity in a Mandarin dictionary and got 機會 and 時機.
My friend Detlev (who has been studying Mandarin for more than 10 years, and who specializes in analyzing characters) has his own private system for recording and finding meanings (it's sort of his own private electronic dictionary, compiled over the years). His system shows 73 different ciyu where the character occurs anywhere - beginning, middle or end (actually, his system shows 333 different ciyu where the character occurs, but only 73 of them have listed meanings).

None of these 73 meanings have very much to do with "opportunity". [Please ignore the neutral tones indicated in some of the pronunciations. They are known to be wrong, but this is only a small annoyance in an otherwise very good system.]

處理 chu3 li3 to handle/to treat/to deal with/to process
處 chu3 to reside/to live/to dwell/to be in/to stay/get along with/to be in a position of/deal with/a place/location/spot/point/office/department/bureau/respect
好處 hao3 chu0 benefit/advantage
何處 he2 chu3 whence/where
管理處 guan3 li3 chu4 ZIV: some official Kontrolle; chu1ru4jing4 guan3li3chu3: Immigrant/emmigrant büro..
之處 zhi1 chu3 ZIV: Vermutung: the place of something
教務處 jiao4 wu4 chu4 ZIV: academic office in schools (high schools, elementary schools, etc.)
處理器 chu3 li3 qi4 processor
處分 chu3 fen1 disposal
辦事處 ban4 shi4 chu4 DH: mission (like the Dutch mission in Taipei); BCV: [9.8 ] 辦公室
文書處理 wen2 shu1 chu3 li3 word processing
相處 xiang0 chu3 get along (with one another)
處罰 chu3 fa2 penalize/punish
籌備處 chou2 bei4 chu4 FECED: a preparatory office
處處 chu4 chu4 everywhere/in all respects
處長 chu4 zhang3 department/office head; section chief
處所 chu4 suo3 place; location
處女座 chu3 nv3 zuo4 Virgo
四處 si4 chu4 all over the place/everywhere and all directions
處方 chu3 fang1 (n) medical prescription
各處 ge4 chu3 BCV: [16.3] 各處 ge4chu4 = everywhere
處境 chu3 jing4 plight
秘書處 mi4 shu0 chu4 secretariat/secretariate
處女 chu3 nu:3 virgin
深處 shen1 chu4 (n) abyss; depths; deepest or most distant part
處在 chu3 zai4 be (in a certain condition)
遠處 yuan3 chu4 distant place
出處 chu0 chu4 derivation
通訊處 tong0 xun4 chu4 address
熱處理 re4 chu3 li3 heat treatment
無處 wu2 chu4 nowhere
人事處 ren2 shi4 chu4
處事 chu3 shi4 deal with affairs
懲處 cheng2 chu3 penalize; punish
益處 yi4 chu4 benefit; profit; good
住處 zhu4 chu4 residence; lodging; quarters
妥善處理 tuo3 shan4 chu3 li3 FECED: [tuo3shan4an1pai2 = to make proper arrangements]
微處理機 wei2 chu3 li3 ji0 microprocessor
高處 gao0 chu4 altitude/eminerce/height/height
處世 chu3 shi4 conduct oneself in society
用處 yong4 chu0 usefulness
判處 pan4 chu3 to sentence/to condemn
內心深處 nei4 xin1 shen1 chu3 inmost
別處 bie2 chu4 elsewhere
長處 chang2 chu4 (n) good aspects; good points
國宅處 guo2 zhai2 chu3 FECED: [na]
某處 mou3 chu4 somewhere
難處 nan2 chu0 (n) trouble; problems
處死 chu4 si3 FECED: punish with death, put to death
壞處 huai4 chu0 (n) harm; troubles
祕書處 mi4 shu0 chu4 secretariat/secretariate
共處 gong4 chu3 coexist/get along (with others)
恰到好處 qia4 dao4 hao3 chu4 (saying) to say or do something atjut the right moment
來處 lai2 chu4 whence
設身處地 she4 shen0 chu3 di4 put oneself in sb. else's position; be considerate
害處 hai4 chu0 FECED: harm; detriment; disadvantages; shortcomings
接合處 jie1 he2 chu3 joint/junture
和平共處 he2 ping2 gong4 chu3 (n) peaceful coexistence of nations, societies, etc.
詢問處 xun2 wen4 chu4 FECED: an information desk
一無是處 yi4 wu2 shi4 chu4 good-for-nothing
登記處 deng1 ji4 chu3 registry
四處尋找 si4 chu3 xin2 zhao3 BFLUCED: search high and low, look into every hole and corner
數據處理 shu4 ju4 chu3 li3 dataprocessing
患處 huan4 chu4 afflicted part
處決 chu3 jue2 execute (a condemned criminal)
朝夕相處 chao2 xi4 xiang1 chu3 be closely associated
售票處 shou4 piao4 chu4 ticket office
處于 chu3 yu2 be (in a certain condition)
短處 duan3 chu4 (n) shortcoming, defect; fault
妙處 miao4 chu4 1.pleasant place/2.subtlety
四處奔走 si4 chu3 ben1 zou3 BFLUCED: go hither and thither
預處理 yu4 chu3 li3 pretreatment/pretreat
老處女 lao3 chu4 nv3 spinster
xng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by xng » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:53 pm

Mark Yong wrote:xng,

extension from "(all things) north, south, east and west", didn't you (and note the parentheses enclosing the phrase "all things")? Okay, so how is this any different? Why is 東西 justifiable and not?
Your explanation of 孔 for Khang makes more sense than 空. Anyway, since there is still some dispute, I will put this under 'unresolve' until more solid proof comes up.

Doesn't 'west, south, north, east' means 'everywhere' in chinese geomancy ? So what are the things that are found everywhere ? This is just my observation but maybe some expert on mandarin should be able to give us a clearer picture.
Mark Yong
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by Mark Yong » Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:06 am

xng wrote:
Doesn't 'west, south, north, east' means 'everywhere' in chinese geomancy ? So what are the things that are found everywhere ?
North, South, East and West mean literally that - the four directions. Paraphrasing your example, Chinese geomancy used "the four directions" as an extended meaning to illustrate "everywhere" - if you want to be pedantic about it, then "everywhere" should be 諸處.

In the same way, 韓非子 used the two objects 'spear''and 'shield' in his parable (I trust you have read it before - if not, please do) to illustrate the concept of a paradox (不能同世而立).

So, given your own example above, can I take it then that you now accept the concept of "extended meaning" in linguistics, and therefore accept that other equally-valid examples exist (and whether they are proven or dis-proven is a different matter)?
xng wrote:
maybe some expert on mandarin should be able to give us a clearer picture.
If we are going to validate the concept of "extended meanings", should we not widen the scope instead of limiting it to Mandarin? And why Mandarin, and not any of the other dialects?
xng wrote:
I will put this under 'unresolve' until more solid proof comes up.
Whether it is eventually 'resolved' or not, please let it be a 'we' thing, not an 'I' thing. A gentle reminder that (to the best of my knowledge), none of us here are academically-qualified to single-handedly 'resolve' questions that have long baffled academics.
Yeleixingfeng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by Yeleixingfeng » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:14 pm

Amateur too here. I would try to illustrate the etymology 即 with what I know, to aid in the comparison as to which ~ or 一 being the character for 'this', since I find its etymology worthy of discussion.

The left part is a 'container?' for food, and the right part is a person knelt on the floor, eating. In other words, 即 (used, perhaps 3000 years ago) is an earlier word of 食 to mean eat, with 食 already meaning food itself. 食 is the container itself, with a cover over it. And, 卩 is a knelt person, as seen in 叩 (口 is the phonetic part). I can raise more examples to prove either sides of 即 as what I claim it to be, if what I have given is not enough.

And from this 即 went on to meaning near, hence to go near. I wouldn't refute the possibility of 即 being 'this', since it was one of the candidates for cit. Btw, I am no expert in Hokkien, know nothing professional about tones and stuff. So, if 即 was cancelled out for some other more solid reasons, then ignore my argument.

Besides, someone mentioned tak-pai as originating from Tai-Kadai, and someone suggested tau, meaning also 次. Maybe the 本字 could be 兜, meaning how rounds someone have done it? I checked the sound, and it matches. It is 當候切, for convenience of research.
amhoanna
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by amhoanna » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:18 am

Thai thuk1 may match tak8. But we'd hv to refer to
sister languages, proto languages, etc...

Penang tau here is first tone? I always thought it would be T2, like wa2 n lu2, bc tau2 has the same meaning in TW.
Yeleixingfeng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by Yeleixingfeng » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:14 pm

Er.. I don't know the tones by numbers.. But the Penang Tau is quite the equal of the fourth tone of Mandarin.
amhoanna
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by amhoanna » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:24 pm

That one is T2, aka 阴上
Yeleixingfeng
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by Yeleixingfeng » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:14 pm

How to differentiate 陰 and 陽?
Ah-bin
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by Ah-bin » Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:33 pm

In the guide to Penang Hokkien tones:

http://penanghokkien.com/?page_id=1194

These relate back to the traditional version of Hokkien tones as follows:

M = 陰平
R = 陽平 e.g. thâu = head 頭 lâng = person 儂 âng = red 紅
H = 上 lú = you 汝 kóng = to say, speak 講 chúi = water 水 hó = good
or the short version ending in -k, -t, -p or h = 陽入e.g. bah = meat 肉 khek = guest 客 chhut = to go out 出

L (class A) = 隱去 e.g. toā = big 大 ū = have 有 oā = language 話
L (class B) = 陽去 e.g. khoàⁿ = to look 看 pàng = to release 放 ài = to love, want 愛
or the short version ending in -k, -t, -p or h = 陰入入 e.g. jít = sun 日 goéh = moon 月 óh = to learn 學
niuc
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Re: Benzi/Original character

Post by niuc » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:36 pm

Yeleixingfeng wrote:Besides, someone mentioned tak-pai as originating from Tai-Kadai, and someone suggested tau, meaning also 次. Maybe the 本字 could be 兜, meaning how rounds someone have done it? I checked the sound, and it matches. It is 當候切, for convenience of research.
amhoanna wrote:bc tau2 has the same meaning in TW.
It seems that tau2 with this meaning is not used in Bagan-ue. We use pai2, and also ker3 (過?), and even 次 chy3. Is ker3/kue3/ke3 in this sense is used in Taiwan or Penang or other places?

I saw 兜 being used in some Taiwanese resources as tau1, meaning a place. 阮兜 gun2-tau1 = our place = our home.
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