Hanji pronunciations in Taiwanese

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
FutureSpy
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Hanji pronunciations in Taiwanese

Post by FutureSpy » Wed May 02, 2012 6:04 am

On SimL's thread on "Names of Radicals", I was to ask that:
I read on Wikipedia that Quanzhou has a third pronunciation they call "vulgar pronunciation". Anyone has any clues if there's such a thing in Taiwanese too? And if not, how useful could it be learning them from Quanzhou sources?
But I was afraid of leading that thread out of its discussion scope (my question had nothing to do with it), so I moved it here.

Then I got all hanji on the 1st lesson of my textbook and added its respective literary and colloquial pronunciations (not sure about accuracy tho --sources are: 台語辭典(台日大辭典台語譯本)查詢, 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典 and 台文/華文線頂辭典):
中 tèng/tìng(p), tiong/tiòng(l), chhian(?)
也 iā/iá/ā/á
京 kiaⁿ(p), keng/king(l)
人 lâng(p), jîn/lîn(l)
你 lí
來 lâi, liô(?)
北 pak(p), pok(l), phian(?)
問 mn̄g(p), būn(l)
國 kok
學 o̍h(p), ha̍k(l)
對 tùi/ùi
師 sai(p), su(l)
我 góa(p), ngó͘(l)
日 ji̍t/li̍t
是 sī, hiō(?)
時 sî
本 pńg(p), pún(l)
東 tang(p), tong(l)
港 káng
灣 oaiⁿ/oan
無 bô/bû
生 siⁿ/seⁿ/chheⁿ/chhiⁿ(p), seng(l)
當 tànng/tǹg/tǹg/tng(p), tòng/tong(l)
老 lāu(p), láu/ló/nó͘(l)
臺(台) tâi, thai(?)
請 chhiáⁿ(p), chhéng/chhíng(l)
香 hiuⁿ/hiaⁿ(p), hiong/hiang(l), phang(?)
Now I have a few questions:
1. Why sometimes 台語辭典(台日大辭典台語譯本)查詢 give weird pronunciations? (I marked those with a "?" and bold)
2. Where there's an e/i (or a/o) variation (tèng/tìng, chheⁿ/chhiⁿ, hiong/hiang, etc.) should I stick with only one?
3. I see a lot of tonal variations. Do I have to memorize which ones take one tone and which ones take the other tone? Any possible explanation to why that happens?
SimL
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Re: Hanji pronunciations in Taiwanese

Post by SimL » Wed May 02, 2012 9:52 am

Hi FutureSpy,

It's so great to see how enthusiastic you are about learning Taiwanese/Hokkien!

What follows is just my personal opinion. The "*", "**", "***" after three points are footnotes.

Hokkien literary vs. colloquial pronunciations are quite a distinctive part of Hokkien (as you and other regular Forum members undoubtedly know). Apparently, other Sinitic languages have it too*, but it's particularly prevalent in Hokkien. That having been said, I wonder if it's that useful - for a learner - to proceed from a list of the colloquial AND literary pronunciations, for each character. As you probably realise, the colloquial pronunciation is (generally) the "commonly occurring" one, and the literary pronunciation will be encountered in more learned/intellectual vocabulary**. Perhaps it would be easier to just learn each pronunciation as you come across it in a compound.

To give you an example: has the colloquial pronunciation "gO5", and the literary pronunciation "ngO2". The only compound I can think of - off the top of my head - which uses "ngO2" is 五香粉 "ngO2-hiong1-hun2", the famous "five-spice powder" used in cooking. So, it's easier for a learner just to learn "gO5" as the word for "five", with the character , and then, if they ever come across the term 五香粉, then they can learn that in that compound, the first character is pronounced "ngO2", and that it's the character's literary pronunciation***. Similarly, you can just learn that is "oh" (colloquial), and then for a few compounds, like 學生 and 大學, it's "hak8-seng1" and "tai3-hak8".

With this approach, you save yourself from learning (one or more) literary pronunciations for a character because you might not - in the first 5 years - come across a compound where the literary pronunciation of that character is needed.

Like I said, this is just a personal opinion, and in no way am I attempting to say how you should approach learning Hokkien, with respect to this issue. If you have a very structured approach, then perhaps learning from lists where both colloquial and literary pronunciations are given is a good way for you. [I have my own way of learning Mandarin, which nobody else uses, but it works for me. It could even be argued that my way is very inefficient and non-productive, but it works for me.] Also, my opinion that "the colloquial pronunciation is (generally) the 'commonly occurring' one, and the literary pronunciation will be encountered in more learned/intellectual vocabulary" might be just an illusion caused by the fact that my Hokkien vocabulary is so limited. If this is the case, then your approach would of course make more sense.

PS. In Penang, one of the most common uses of literary pronunciation is in personal names (undoubtedly in other variants of Hokkien too). So, and - two very common characters for the names of girls and boys (respectively) - will often be pronounced "guat8" and "liong5" in names (but can also occur as "gueh8" and "leng5" in names). For girls, with literary "giok8" instead of colloquial "gek8" is also very common, but here too, "gek8" is known to occur.

PPS. [And here, I'm completely outside my area of competence!] Isn't my suggestion above a bit like how one could learn Japanese with regards to the "kun"- and "on"-readings? Instead of getting a list of characters and learning all the different readings for each character, one could just learn the "kun" or "on" form in words as one comes across these words. This save a lot of additional memorization, because there might be many characters where one reading is very common, and the other(s) much less, or extremely rarely.

---

Additional information (marked with asterisks in the text above, but not included there in order not to break the flow of the main line of discussion):

*: Someone explained to me that "even" Mandarin has/had colloquial and literary pronunciations, but that: 1) They were much fewer than in Hokkien anyway. 2) In the standardization of Putonghua, they "got rid of" many of them (just by declaring them non-standard - that's the luxury one can afford oneself when creating a standard out of nowhere). Apparently, some of the characters which can be read in two different tones are a remnant of this: one tone is the literary pronunciation, and the other is the colloquial. [Perhaps the "dai4" in 大夫 "dai4fu0" ( is normally pronounced "da4") is also a remnant of this. I don't know if any other Forum members can confirm or refute this...?]

**: This is a very broad generalization, particularly for Hokkien. It's generally true for other Sinitic varieties, but for Hokkien, literary pronunciations will be found in very normal everyday terms too. [And conversely, sometimes - as in the case of Penang Hokkien - colloquial pronunciations will be found in a few items of learned/intellectual vocabulary - even where other varieties of Hokkien already have a well-established literary pronunciation for the same vocabulary items. Penang Hokkien "tua3-oh8" is the most well-known example.]

***: In one of the earlier threads on this Forum (www.chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopi ... 71&p=27644), I did a survey of the literary pronunciations of the digits 1-10. Here you'll get a flavour of what I mean about the literary pronunciations being restricted to more learned/intellectual vocabulary.
amhoanna
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Re: Hanji pronunciations in Taiwanese

Post by amhoanna » Wed May 02, 2012 4:32 pm

First off, Sim just gave a ton of very sound advice.

A few things to add on my part:
I read on Wikipedia that Quanzhou has a third pronunciation they call "vulgar pronunciation". Anyone has any clues if there's such a thing in Taiwanese too? And if not, how useful could it be learning them from Quanzhou sources?
No idea what they're talking about. Can't trust everything U read on Wikipedia, U know. :lol: Feel free to post a link to the article. And, whatever it is, I'm pretty sure that if it exists in Coanciu, it'll also exist in Taiwanese.

Coanciu sources could work great, as long as U don't confuse yourself. There are also two or three different types of Coanciu dialects, and they're not esp. similar even in comparison to Ciangciu, if I'm not mistaken. For a linguist, and it seems like U are one, it would be relatively easy to go from Coanciu to the rest of Hokkien, and relatively hard to go the other way. For one thing, all 8 tone classes have been kept intact in Coanciu, at least in the city of Coanciu. One more caveat, though, is that the dialect of Coanciu has been changing fast, so sources from different eras may contradict each other.

Very useful 字典, based on Coanciu Hoklo:
http://solution.cs.ucla.edu/~jinbo/dzl/
1. Why sometimes 台語辭典(台日大辭典台語譯本)查詢 give weird pronunciations? (I marked those with a "?" and bold)
Let me address 香 = "phang" first. Phang is the Hoklo word for FRAGRANT. The "etymologically true" kanji is 芳, AFAIK. Meanwhile, the word (by def., written word) for FRAGRANT in Classic Literary Chinese is 香. Meanwhile, 香 is also associated with the Hoklo etyma "hiuⁿ" and "hiong".

So, 香 = "hiong" would be analogous to 山 = "san" in the JPnese context, whereas 香 = "phang" would be analogous to 山 = "yama". The analogy isn't perfect, since "phang" is in itself Sinitic. The shared feature is that in both cases the kanji is not "etymologically correct".

As for the other examples, no idea. Hiō is the only other word here I even somewhat know. I suspect these are beyond the grasp of the avg under-60 TWnese Hoklophone. Then again, I'm not even that. My tentative advice (not fully informed, etc.) is that U should ignore those as being idiosyncracies in the way the 台日大 is set up. 台日大 is probably unsuitable for this purpose, BTW.
2. Where there's an e/i (or a/o) variation (tèng/tìng, chheⁿ/chhiⁿ, hiong/hiang, etc.) should I stick with only one?
Short answer yes, but no penalties for straying. Whatever is easiest for U.

Details: -iong/-iang is generally Coanciu vs Ciangciu... All -eⁿ endings go to -iⁿ in Coanciu and Amoy, but Ciangciu has -iⁿ endings as well, just not on 生, etc.

Hiuⁿ / hiaⁿ seems like it might be different layers. I don't know any words using 香 / hiaⁿ. C.f. niû and niâ 娘 though.

Chhéng / chhíng is an attempt to illustrate the quality of the vowel. Nobody does this consistently, so I'd ignore it. Standard POJ uses -eng, but U'll see -ieng spellings too. The TW MOE adopted -ing. Not phonologically significant.
3. I see a lot of tonal variations. Do I have to memorize which ones take one tone and which ones take the other tone?
Short answer: they are DIFFERENT WORDS that just happen to be etymologically related, and happen to be attached to a certain kanji as well.

The relationship between words and kanji in Hokkien is very similar to what goes on in Japanese.
Any possible explanation to why that happens?
Short answer: different eras. Lāu is old-school "original" Hoklo. Ló is a "Tang pronunciation", imported during the Tang or later. Láu is intermediate between the two. THESE THREE ETYMA HAVE DIFFERENT MEANINGS, CONNOTATIONS OR USES IN HOKLO.

The same thing happens in Vietnamese. Bốn, tư and tứ all mean FOUR, but they are different words with different uses. Tứ is the Tang pronunciation, what they call "Sino-Vietnamese". It's associated with 四. Tư is a Sino loan too, but an earlier one, and not considered "Sino-Vietnamese". Ba is the "native" Viet word. Bốn, and tư too I believe, are written with "exotic" Vietogenic kanji...

Another analogy: agua and the acua- in acuático are different etyma with different uses, but they are etymologically related and would be etymologically associated with the same kanji, if kanji were involved. Other, more breathtaking examples no doubt abound.
Hokkien literary vs. colloquial pronunciations are quite a distinctive part of Hokkien (as you and other regular Forum members undoubtedly know). Apparently, other Sinitic languages have it too*, but it's particularly prevalent in Hokkien.
True, within "Sinitic", they are particularly prevalent in the "Min" languages. They're also prevalent in Vietnamese (though analyzed differently, as just being different words) and in Japanese. The "Wu" languages also have this going on.

This all goes back to the layering of the Sinitic elements in these languages -- Hoklo, Hokciu, Hinghwa, Hainamese, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc.

These languages have layers of Sinitic that can be traced to different bygone eras. These eras usually represent either high-water marks of "Chinese" civilization or periods of chaos when people and scholars fled -- always south.

These areas (Hokkian, Japan, Vietnam) were so remote from the centers of Sino-culture, that they could be "Sinfluenced" from the center only when Sino-culture was at full flower, or through the movement of people, and in both cases this Sinfluence may've indirect and lagging. Meanwhile, most of what is today China Proper was closer to the centers of Sino-culture, and so Sinfluence took place on a continual basis ... so that layers did not form to the same extent that we see in VNmese, JPnese and Hoklo...
Last edited by amhoanna on Wed May 02, 2012 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
amhoanna
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Re: Hanji pronunciations in Taiwanese

Post by amhoanna » Wed May 02, 2012 4:49 pm

Forgot to add, I think I understand what U're trying to do at this stage. It's not a bad idea. I did it too, kind of as a prelude to learning Hoklo. But a much easier way to do it would be to simply get a rhyme chart, if that's what it's called. There are two types. They complement each other, actually. I'm attaching screen grabs of the two. Not sure where to get a set, but they're "everywhere" in academia and bet there are some online for TWnese. Actually, the UCLA Coanciu resource seems to be the digitized version of one such chart. I can help U find one for TWnese if neces.

The screen grabs are for Haihong Hoklo, spoken in 広東, and with this dialect the adjustment to Mainstream TWnese is not huge.
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SimL
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Re: Hanji pronunciations in Taiwanese

Post by SimL » Wed May 02, 2012 5:33 pm

Hi amhoanna,
Let me address 香 = "phang" first. Phang is the Hoklo word for FRAGRANT. The "etymologically true" kanji is 芳, AFAIK. Meanwhile, the word (by def., written word) for FRAGRANT in Classic Literary Chinese is 香. Meanwhile, 香 is also associated with the Hoklo etyma "hiuⁿ" and "hiong".
Good that you point this out. I think many people interested in Hokkien and characters - but who haven't gone into it very deeply - believe that = "phang1". I certainly did for years, in the same way as I thought that = "ciah8". We develop some gut feeling for what cognates are between Mandarin and Hokkien, and sometimes we're wrong - misled by the semantic connection, as you explain. It was only in the last 5 years that I realised that these should be and . [It's cases like these where I'm completely comfortable with - and indeed supportive of - the 本字-enthusiasts.]

In connection with , it's perhaps worthwhile pointing out that this has an alternative pronunciation "hong1". I never knew this until I discovered the characters for my (Baba) great-grandfather's name (by co-incidence, on the very same "marriage scroll document" I spoke about in another reply today!). Since my earliest years, I've known that his name was "Tan Hong Lim", but (as with so many Babas), I'd never wondered what the characters were. It's only when analyzing the scroll about 5 years ago that I found out that the characters were 陈芳霖.

Even if he were alive today (impossible, as he was born in the 1880's), he (and his siblings and parents) would probably not have been able to provide me with this information, as they were unable to read and write Chinese. I believe that names were chosen in those days based on what the horoscope said, so the characters were probably picked by someone advising the family.

Anyway, the main reason I went into this in a bit more detail is that there's something which has puzzled me for a number of years now (ever since I started learning Mandarin properly, and could begin to read characters). Namely, how some personal names are chosen. [Topic drift, topic drift!] My dictionary gives as meaning "continued rain", "long spell of rain", "copious rain". Now, a long spell of continuous, fragrant rain seems to be a rather unusual name to give someone... [No disrepect intended to my great-grandfather, I'm only speaking about this from a socio-linguistic perspective.] The same goes for quite a number of other Chinese names I come across. With some of the major scholars (or of politicians / historical figures) of the late 19th and early 20th century in China whose names I come across in (English) Wikipedia (or of members of my Chinese-educated, Sin-Kheh maternal family, for that matter), I wonder to myself: "Hmmm, bit of a strange name", when I look at the meaning of the compound.

As for the fact that can have a "ph-" or an "f-" initial, this matches quite well a number of other well-known ones. There's "put8" and "hut8" for , and "png1" and "hong1" for the surname (in this case, my maternal Sin-Kheh family's surname). My guess is that the "initial-h" form is the colloquial reading and the "initial-p" form the literary (because of and so commonly having the "initial-h"-form), but I could be wrong. [Actually, thinking about it, there's ("hong1"), ("hong1"), ("huat4"), ("huat4"), ("hun2"), ("hut8") with initial-h, and ("pang3"), ("pang5"), ("pun1") with initial-p, so not really an overwhelming number in favour of initial-h. Does anyone know?]
FutureSpy
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Re: Hanji pronunciations in Taiwanese

Post by FutureSpy » Wed May 02, 2012 10:19 pm

Thanks SimL.

Well, actually I never stopped to think about all that you wrote. I mean, when I took Japanese classes back in High School, teaching method for kanji was kinda conservative. Some teachers even included some mnemonic elements (not etymological ones tho) to aid memorizing, but basically it was a few characters + on'yomi + kun'yomi + vocabs list using that kanji and a test on next class. So instinctively that's more or less what I was trying to do here. Besides, I was planning to add radicals and perhaps the simplified form for each character as well, so that by the time I revisit (or should I say, actually study them properly) the lessons I could study every character on it.

But now to be honest, that system never really worked to me. I learned how to read most kanji I know reading or with song lyrics. And for those I never came across in real life and only learned at school, I probably can only remember their kun'yomi. So your ideas totally make sense to me. I think that would end up happening to me with Hokkien too (memorizing colloquial readings and not being able to remember literary readings in many cases). Still, having some well-organized charts to follow every lesson would come handy at some later time (or perhaps I just feel insecure if I don't have such fancy charts even though they aren't especially useful). Anyway I think I'm just wasting time on stupid things to put off getting to real learning :D

And at this time, I feel a little confused listing pronunciations for a character, as I never know if one pronunciation is equivalent to another, or they do happen in different words. I might even think of spending some extra bucks on that Hanji book re-edited by Maryknoll, but I have no idea of the contents...

BTW, long thread. I'll take a look at it later. Thanks.

I have some hanzi books for Mandarin I bought a few years ago, but I -NEVER- leafed it through... I'll see what it has to offer later.



Thanks amhoanna.

Here's the Wikipedia article I was talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_a ... characters
For a linguist, and it seems like U are one
I'm actually an undergrad student in Computer Science in his last year wondering if he'll ever get to graduate... It's no joke, now I only have a bunch Math subjects slowing me down before going to intership, and there's a subject I'll be taking for 4th time next semester... :(

The dict seems down, but I'll take a look at it later.
Standard POJ uses -eng, but U'll see -ieng spellings too.
My textbook recordings had it pronounced as /i/, but when I first heard a Taiwanese pronouncing it I wrote down it as ie so that I'd remember to pronounce it that way.

Thanks for the enlighting explanations on tonal differences. As for the rhyme charts, sounds interesting. To what extend is the first table supposed to cover characters pronunciations? Is the second one more comprehensive?

I could perfectly leave hanji for later, but I'm really missing the writing/visual factor to reenforce what I'm learning.
amhoanna
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Re: Hanji pronunciations in Taiwanese

Post by amhoanna » Fri May 04, 2012 2:53 am

Here's the Wikipedia article I was talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_a ... characters
OK, got it. What they refer to as "vulgar" readings are just the situations where the kanji and the (spoken) etymon aren't etymologically related. 香 / phang would be one example. These examples abound in Hoklo, and in Japanese they've been institutionalized, but they're not very common in Canto, Mand, etc.

There are some very high frequency "vulgarisms" in almost any Hoklo kanji text. Examples:
一 / tsi̍t
人 / lâng
欲 / beh

What does this say about the Siniticity of Hoklo? Hmm...

And, these are shared across Hoklo, inc. Teochew -- they're not unique to Coanciu.
I'm actually an undergrad student in Computer Science in his last year wondering if he'll ever get to graduate...
So U're a scientific linguist. U can't afford to spit even one line of bullshit, b/c the computers will call it right away and return an error. :mrgreen: Much needed in Hoklology.
amhoanna
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Re: Hanji pronunciations in Taiwanese

Post by amhoanna » Fri May 04, 2012 3:04 am

To what extend is the first table supposed to cover characters pronunciations? Is the second one more comprehensive?
Yes. The first one only seems to give one for each combo. The second seems to be comprehensive. Sorry, haven't had time to take a good look myself. Slow computer.
As for the fact that 芳 can have a "ph-" or an "f-" initial, this matches quite well a number of other well-known ones. There's "put8" and "hut8" for 佛, and "png1" and "hong1" for the surname 方 (in this case, my maternal Sin-Kheh family's surname). [Actually, thinking about it, there's 風 ("hong1"), 方 ("hong1"), 法 ("huat4"), 發 ("huat4"), 粉 ("hun2"), 佛 ("hut8") with initial-h, and 放 ("pang3"), 房 ("pang5"), 分 ("pun1") with initial-p, so not really an overwhelming number in favour of initial-h. Does anyone know?]
I think I've read that p- represents the oldest Sinitic layer in Hoklo. There are at least three, as repped by:

方 png (oldest)
方 hng (early Tong?)
方 hong (Classic Tong Literary)

Surnames are usually, if not always, in the oldest layer. This makes me wonder if 林 is really the punji for nâ.
amhoanna
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Re: Hanji pronunciations in Taiwanese

Post by amhoanna » Fri May 04, 2012 8:46 am

SimL
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Re: Hanji pronunciations in Taiwanese

Post by SimL » Fri May 04, 2012 10:43 am

amhoanna wrote:I think I've read that p- represents the oldest Sinitic layer in Hoklo. There are at least three, as repped by:

方 png (oldest)
方 hng (early Tong?)
方 hong (Classic Tong Literary)

Surnames are usually, if not always, in the oldest layer. This makes me wonder if 林 is really the punji for nâ.
Thanks, amhoanna!

Last weekend I started making lists of Hokkien-Mandarin correspondences (a sort of Swadesh-list thing). I haven't got very far, and I'm planning on keeping it quite simple. It's going to take quite a while (a few weeks definitely). When it's ready I'll post here.

Perhaps this sort of tabulated information is easily available on Chinese (I mean character-based) sites, but AFAIK, there's very little information about it in English. Is my impression correct?
Ah-bin
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Re: Hanji pronunciations in Taiwanese

Post by Ah-bin » Sat May 05, 2012 3:08 am

Last weekend I started making lists of Hokkien-Mandarin correspondences (a sort of Swadesh-list thing). I haven't got very far, and I'm planning on keeping it quite simple. It's going to take quite a while (a few weeks definitely). When it's ready I'll post here.
Just to save you a bit of time Sim, here is an Appendix to my MA thesis, in which I did much the same thing. I didn't really know much Hokkien or Japanese back then (ten years ago), so there may be a fwe mistakes. Also I've just copied and pasted it in, so the formatting has gone a bit funny. It's fun to count how many cognates the two "languages" dutch and English, share at a basic level, compared to the two "dialects". The Japanese is there as an example of how non cognate vocabulary can "be written the same but pronounced differently" going by script alone.

APPENDIX II
COMPARISON OF BASIC VOCABULARY IN ENGLISH, DUTCH, MANDARIN, Southern Min AND JAPANESE

Explanation:
Swadesh’s diagnostic chart is used in the following way: The non-complex lexical item which corresponds most closely to each meaning in the basic list is selected as the form for comparison. Therefore, although Mandarin does share cognate vocabulary with Southern Min, such as soè 細 meaning “tiny” or “small”, the ordinary word in Mandarin for the concept “small” 小 is not a cognate. Similarly, the word “hound” cognate with Dutch “hond” does exist in English, but since the ordinary word for the concept is “dog”, it has been counted as a non-cognate form. Where Southern Min and Mandarin words share one morpheme, I have counted them as cognates. Dutch words that are not cognate with English, and Southern Min words that are not cognate with Mandarin are marked with an asterisk *. Words in Japanese with a cognate graphic form with Mandarin (excluding kana) are marked with a dagger†.

English Dutch Mandarin Southern Min Japanese
1. I ik 我-wo 我-goá 私-watashi
2. you jij 你-ni 汝-lí 貴方-anata
3. we wij 我們-wo-mên *阮-goán 私達-watashitachi
4. this dit 這-chê *□-chit 此-ko-
5. that dat 那-na *□-hit 其-so-
6. who wie 誰-shei *啥儂-siaⁿ-lâng †誰-dare
7. what wat 什麼-shên-mo *啥物-siáⁿ-mih 何-nani
8. not niet 不-pu *毋-m (no separate word)
9. all alle 都-tou *攏-lóng 皆-mina
10. many *veel 多-to *儕-chē †多い-oi
11. one een 一-i 一-chit †一つ-hitotsu
12. two twee 二-erh 二-jī †二つ-futatsu
13. big *groot 大-ta 大-toā †大きい-ookii
14. long lang 長-ch’ang 長-tng †長い-nagai
15. small *klein 小-hsiao *細-soè †小い-chiisai
16. man man 男的-nan-tê *查夫-cha-po• †男の子-otokonoko
17. woman *vrouw 女的-nü-tê * 查姥-cha-bó• †女の子-onnanoko
18. person *mens 人-jên *儂-lâng †人-hito
19. fish vis 魚-yü 魚仔-hî-á †魚-sakana
20. bird *vogel 鳥-niao 鳥仔-tiâu-á †鳥-tori
21. dog *hond 狗-kou 狗-káu 犬-inu
22. louse luis 蝨子-shih-tzŭ 蝨母-sat-bú †蝨-shirami
23. tree *boom 樹-shu 樹仔-chhiū-á 木-ki
24. seed zaad 種子-chung-tzŭ 種子-chéng-chí †種-tane
25. leaf *blad 葉-yeh 葉-hioh †葉-ha
26. root *wortel 根-kên 根-kun †根-ne
27. bark *schors 樹皮-shu-p’i 樹皮-chhiū-phê †樹皮-jūhi
28. skin *huid 皮膚-p’i-fu 皮膚-phê-hū 肌-hada
29. flesh vlees 肉-jou *□-bah †肉-niku
30. blood bloed 血-hsieh 血-hoeh †血-chi
31. bone been 骨頭-ku-t’ou 骨頭-kut-thâu †骨-hone
32. grease *vet 油 油-iû †油-abura
33. egg ei 蛋-tan *卵-nng 卵-tamago
34. horn horn 角-chiao 角-kak †角-tsuno
35. tail *staart 尾巴-wei-pa 尾-bóe †尻尾-shippo
36. feather veder 羽毛-yü-mao *翼-sit †羽-hane
37. hair haar 頭髮-t’ou-fa *頭毛-thâu-mng †髮-kami
38. head hoofd 頭-t’ou 頭殼-thâu-khak †頭-atama
39. ear oor 耳朵-erh-to 耳-hīⁿ †耳-mimi
40. eye oog 眼睛-yen-ching *目睭-bak-chiu 目-me
41. nose neus 鼻子-pi-tzŭ 鼻-phīⁿ †鼻-hana
42. mouth mond 嘴巴-tsui-pa *喙-chhúi 口-kuchi
43. tooth tand 牙齒-ya-ch’ih *齒-khí †齒-ha
44. tongue tong 舌頭-shê-t’ou 舌-chih †舌-shita
45. claw klauw 爪-chao 爪-jiáuⁿ †爪-tsume
46. foot voet 腳-chiao *骹/跤-kha 足-ashi
47. knee knie 膝蓋 *骹/跤頭窩-kha-thâu-u †膝-hiza
48. hand hand 手-shou 手-chiú †手-te
49. belly *buik 肚子-tu-tzŭ 腹肚-pak-tó• 腹-hara
50. neck nek 脖子-po-tzū *頷滾-ām-kún 首-kubi
51. breasts borst 胸部-hsiung-pu 胸崁-hēng-khám †胸-mune
52. heart hart 心-hsin 心-sim †心-kokoro
53. liver lever 肝-kan 肝-koaⁿ †肝-kimo
54. drink drinken 喝-hê *啉-lîm 飲む-nomu
55. eat eten 吃-chih *食-chiah 食べる-taberu
56. bite bijten 咬-yao *□-kā 嚙む-kamu
57. see zien 看-k’an 看-khoàⁿ 見る-miru
58. hear horen 聽-t’ing 聽-thiaⁿ 聞く-kiku
59. know *weten 知道-chih-tao 知影-chai-iáⁿ †知る-shiru
60. sleep slapen 睡覺-shui-chiao *睏-khùn 眠る-nemuru
61. die *sterven 死-szŭ 死-sí †死ぬ-shinu
62. kill *doden 殺-sha *刣-thâi †殺す-korosu
63. swim zwemmen 游泳-yu-yung *泅-siû †泳ぐ-oyogu
64. fly vliegen 飛-fei 飛-pe †飛ぶ-tobu
65. walk *lopen 走-tsou *行-kiâⁿ 步く-aruku
66. come komen 來-lai 來-lâi †來る-kuru
67. lie liggen 躺-t’ang *倒-tó 橫たわる-yokotawaru
68. sit zitten 坐-tso 坐-chē 座る-suwaru
69. stand staan 站-chan *徛-khiā 立つ-tatsu
70. give geven 給-kei *□-hō• 與る-ataeru
71. say zeggen 說-shuo *講-kóng 言う-iiu
72. sun zon 太陽-t’ai-yang *日頭-jit-thâu †太陽-taiyō
73. moon maan 月亮-yüeh-liang *月娘-goeh-niû †月-tsuki
74. star ster 星星-hsing-hsing 星-chhiⁿ †星-hoshi
75. water water 水-shui 水-chuí †水-mizu
76. rain regen 雨-yü 雨-hō• †雨-ame
77. stone steen 石頭-shih-t’ou 石-chioh †石-ishi
78. sand zand 沙-sha 沙-soa 砂-suna
79. earth aard 土-t’u *塗-thô• †土-tsuchi
80. cloud *wolk 雲-yun 雲-hûn †雲-kumo
81. smoke *rook 煙-yen *薰-hun †煙-kemuri
82. fire vuur 火-huo 火-hoé †火-hi
83. ash as 灰-hui 灰-hu †灰-hai
84. burn verbranden 燒-shao *焚-hiâⁿ 燃る-moeru
85. path pad 路-lu 路-lō• 小道-komichi
86. mountain *berg 山-shan 山-soaⁿ †山-yama
87. red rood 紅-hung 紅-âng 赤い-akai
88. green groen 綠-lü 綠-lek 青い-aoi
89. yellow geel 黃-huang 黃-ng †黃い-kiiroi
90. white wit 白-pai 白-peh †白い-shiroi
91. black *zwart 黑-hei *烏-o• †黑い-kuroi
92. night nacht 晚上-wan-shang *暝時-mî-sî 夜-yoru
93. hot heet 熱-jê 熱-joah †熱い-atsui
94. cold koud 冷-lêng *寒-koaⁿ 寒い-samui
95. full vol 滿-man 滿-moá 一杯-ippai
96. new nieuw 新-hsin 新-sin †新い-atarashii
97. good goed 好-hao 好-hó 良い-ii
98. round rond 圓-yüan 圓-oân 丸い-marui
99. dry droog 乾-kan *□-ta †乾いている- kawaiteiru
100. name naam 名字-ming-tzŭ 名-miâ †名-na
Ah-bin
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:10 am
Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: Hanji pronunciations in Taiwanese

Post by Ah-bin » Sat May 05, 2012 3:10 am

The list was based on Taiwanese by the way, a Pengnag list would look quite different.

Please feel free to correct it!
Yeleixingfeng
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:50 am

Re: Hanji pronunciations in Taiwanese

Post by Yeleixingfeng » Sat May 05, 2012 4:20 am

Just for your information, I learn Hokkien exactly as Futurespy described. I can't seem to remember a Hokkien word without knowing its etymology. I mean, learning methods might differ for people with different backgrounds but I learnt Japanese by first memorising its its On-yomi and then only its Kun-yomi. (Mostly because its onyomi is so much more predictable, as Mandarin is my first language.)
One obvious example of hanji helping in memorising Hokkien words, is JiaN正-Chhiu (Right) and to倒-chhiu (left). ThO土-hun粉 is another example.

Anyway, just sharing my method. ^^
Mark Yong
Posts: 684
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Re: Hanji pronunciations in Taiwanese

Post by Mark Yong » Sat May 05, 2012 11:16 am

Hi, all,

It’s been a while - my apologies for the long absence, as I have had an acute lack of inspiration to come up with new topics, and as most of the older Forumers would know, I try not to write unless it is something meaningful (well... to me, anyway!).

I was thinking of starting off a new thread, but since this one on Hanji pronunciations came up, and Yeleixingfeng was nice enough to post something on remembering Hokkien words via etymology, I thought I might just ride on it, as a word had cropped up in my mind just yesterday.

One normally sees the word kôey (pastries) written as at almost all confectionery shops and stalls in Penang. But no matter how one reads it, the 反切 pronunciation:

《集韻》 居勞切

just doesn’t match up. So, I did a bit of digging, and came up with this (I am sure some of you already figured it out way before me, but I did a search through our Forum, and there was no mention of it in the search results, so I thought I’d put it in for good measure):

餜: 《集韻》 古火切、音果。《玉篇》 餠也。

Now, I would defer to an expert for firm verification, but from what I see, the 反切 matches up, so does the tone, and the definition “pastry” appears to be spot-on.

Of course, it kind of messes things up, because after so many years of everyone associating nìⁿ kôey with the characters 年糕, it may very well be 年餜 for the Hokkien equivalent!

Another one that I have been mulling over recently was LÒk-LÒk - the popular roadside snack where skewers of meat/vegetables are dipped in a pot of soup. It is written as 樂樂 everywhere in Penang, but something tells me it really should be 熝熝. The word is more commonly used in Cantonese, meaning “to scaled with steam or boiling water”. The character itself is not common (and from what I gather from Web searches, is still debated as the correct character for “scald”) - which, apart from Cantonese being a minority dialect in Penang, might explain why it was not used. That notwithstanding, 反切-wise:

《集韻》 盧各切、音祿。

it still renders the correct Hokkien pronunciation and tone. The complication arises because and are homonyms in Hokkien, but not in Cantonese (the latter has an -O- vs. -u- distinction between the two characters).

Not insisting that either are definitive - just my usual 本字-obsessive tendencies kicking in again! :lol:
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Hanji pronunciations in Taiwanese

Post by SimL » Sat May 05, 2012 4:21 pm

Hi Ah-bin,

Thanks for your list. I may have confused the issue slightly by mentioning the term Swadesh. Indeed, the list I have in mind would be Swadesh-like, because it would involve the most basic terms of Hokkien vocabulary (these being the ones I'm familiar with). But, in contrast, I would definitely be picking the cognates in Mandarin and Hokkien, even if either had drifted hugely away in meaning. This is because I'm primarily interested in the sound correspondences, less in the meanings.

What I have in mind would also be tabulations where the sounds all match, so that one can see that the pronunciation of one family of characters in Hokkien matches one (or two or even three etc) sets of pronunciations in Mandarin (or vice versa). The one-to-many mappings come about obviously because Mandarin split one original sound or (conversely) Hokkien merged originally different sounds, or vice versa.

My most amusing example is that I never thought that "Amoy/Amng" and "Xia-Men" had anything to do with one another, until I discovered the Hokkien "(NoConsonant)-<vowel>" vs. Mandarin "x-<vowel>" correspondence, only about 2-3 years ago. [In addition to the Amoy example, I can only think of "e"/"xie", and "e"/"xia" off the top of my head; for Mandarin "x-", it's much more common to find Hokkien "s-" or "h-", but the "<NoConsonant>-" is also one of the sound correspondences.]

Hi Mark,

Always happy to see you here again :P .
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