tui3 vs tu3

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: tui3 vs tu3

Post by FutureSpy » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:37 am

I haven't met any Taiwanese for the last two weeks, since I've been a little busy with exams. Seems like the Taiwanese I mentioned earlier use /g/ sound more often than I thought. So 二 is gi7 and.. well, another word I can't remember right now.

And guess what, I've just got to my parents 2 hours ago and I had another Taiwanese textbook awaiting me (Okay, it might sound stupid, but I'm collecting Taiwanese textbooks now). Listening to the recordings, I was surprised to found out that besides l, d, g and j, seems like z is also possible in some words. At least of the speakers on the recordings clearly says a /z/ in 熱 (zoah8)... He pronounced it that way throughout the book. Need to check whether he does that with other words too. :mrgreen:
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Re: tui3 vs tu3

Post by amhoanna » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:06 am

Yes, but a lot of it is "conditioned" by the following vowel.

When a back vowel follows, there are really only three options, AFAIK:


When -i- follows, AFAIK, any one of the three sounds above might still be used, but:

"l-" speakers may use "d-" instead. This seems to be more true in the Phils, and less true in TW. According to Niuc, this is also how things work in Bagan Hokkien.

"z-" speakers may use "j-" instead -- the palatalized fricative, like or much like the Portuguese /j/. TWese speakers tend to palatalize their fricatives before -i-, strongly if they're young, but this seems to be less true in Sing-Ma. I never hear middle-aged or younger TWese speakers saying "si" unpalatalized, except maybe for dramatic effect.

"dz-" speakers may use "dj-" instead. Ditto. TWese speakers tend to palatalize their affricates before -i-...

And there are speakers who use "g-" when -i- follows. I think these would mostly be "z-" and "dz-" speakers...

It's not that complicated. Basically, there's just three camps: an l- camp, a j- camp, and a j-/g- camp. The l-/d- thing and the z- vs dz- thing are poorly documented most likely b/c the differences are so small...
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Re: tui3 vs tu3

Post by FutureSpy » Wed May 02, 2012 10:55 pm

Wow... Thanks amhoanna. That's going to be really useful :mrgreen: