Hoklo in Hapcai + Singgora, reports from the field

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
SimL
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Re: Hoklo in Hapcai + Singgora, reports from the field

Post by SimL » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:02 pm

Hi niuc,

Thanks for sharing your information and knowledge too! Well, perhaps the amount of veg we get in S.E. Asia is due to S.E. Asian influence then... The Cantonese who went to London Chinatown probably went direct from China or Hong Kong, and perhaps "preserve" the lack of veg from that region.
niuc
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Re: Hoklo in Hapcai + Singgora, reports from the field

Post by niuc » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:14 am

Hi Sim
SimL wrote: Well, perhaps the amount of veg we get in S.E. Asia is due to S.E. Asian influence then... The Cantonese who went to London Chinatown probably went direct from China or Hong Kong, and perhaps "preserve" the lack of veg from that region.
I think we indeed are richly influenced by SE Asian vegetables, e.g. kangkong. However, I also think that our ancestors generally ate more vegetables than meat, because meat was expensive. The lack of vegetable dishes outside doesn't mean that they are not common in house-cooking. A Hongkonger also told me the same. So I guess most Chinese do not eat out just to get vegetables, but meat. :mrgreen:
SimL
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Re: Hoklo in Hapcai + Singgora, reports from the field

Post by SimL » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:37 am

niuc wrote:I think we indeed are richly influenced by SE Asian vegetables, e.g. kangkong.
Oh, I simply LOVE kangkong in any form - so wonderfully crunchy!
niuc wrote:A Hongkonger also told me the same. So I guess most Chinese do not eat out just to get vegetables, but meat. :mrgreen:
ROTFL!
amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo in Hapcai + Singgora, reports from the field

Post by amhoanna » Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:20 am

Do you know whether the Chinese Buddhists there are Theravada or Mahayana, or also 三教 (儒, 釋, 道)?
The latter, from the looks of it. It also seemed like a lot of ethnic Tais have been enlisted or brought into the fold, at least for the rituals. Tai guys with bicycle handlebars bored through their cheeks for 九皇爺, for example.
In my variant, the dishes are called 醎!
Btw, thanks for the TLJ 醎, easier to write than 鹹 and not as ambiguous as 咸.
Yes! There's usually a happy medium. Good pt about DISHES = 醎.
Bâgán home cooking has quite a number of healthy dishes but they are not necessarily typical Hokkien (may be across Chinese and even SE Asian) and usually not found in food stalls / restaurants
Interesting.
I don't know much about Vietnamese cuisine, but from what I tried here, it used strange smell vegetables. However, I like its dry beef-bíhún dish (forget the name)! :mrgreen:
Those leaves are the key for me. I'd enjoy my daily rice a lot more if I could get a plate of leaves with every meal, and a thing of fish sauce. There are a great number of leaves, used in different combinations. Seems like U're talking about some kind of bún bò.
Ciàu Wikipedia só·siá ·ê, Banyuwangi ê lâng sī Osing bîncòk, suidiân ēsái kóng sī Jiáu'a còkkhûn ê cìtpō·hūn, m-kú mā ēsái sng`tsuè sī līngguā cìtkhuán lâng, ū siū Bâlî bôció ê ínghióng. In ê Blambangan ôngkok sī Jiáu'a'tuē tehsuahbé· ê Ìntō·kaù ê ôngkok. Suidiân siū Bâlî (in kèsī Majapahit tèkok ê kiáⁿsun) ê póhō·, tèbé· āsī pāi tī Huêkaù ê Mataram ê chiú.
Tiọ', kài chùbị. Goá cin ǹgbạng khừ tữ hit ta' melantáu cịt po· kú, choạ cịt ẻ sìn Ìntọ·kàu ẻ bó· tuíⁿkhừ Anlảm. :lol: In ẻ imgạk mã kài hóthiaⁿ, hõ· lảng chibẻ.
Tongkim guá só· tuhtiòh ê Ìntō·lâng tuāpō·hūn bôlémāu, nā mng-lō· bôkiò kámsiā ·ê. Ciàu guá siūⁿ, Huilìppinlâng ingkai bô símmìh hō· Ìntō· ínghióng, a māsī pí Ìntō·lâng keduā lémāu ·ê.
The Indian South has been overrun in some ways by the Indian North too. Just a guess.
Alisanlâng ū pí Tng^lâng khah ū lémāu ·bô?
In kha' bỏ hià' gảu ké. :mrgreen:

Tạkgẻ nạ ũ kihoẹ thang khoàⁿ SEEDIQ BALE (iáⁿhì), goá cin chuiciàn.
Is the guy Chinese? Is the sentence native Thai or slang?
No, obviously not Chinese. มาไปแล้ว turns up a healthy number of hits on Google. Not sure if it's used in Bangkok Tai Siam. It's possible that it's specifically Southern Tai. And the isthmus area is very syncretic, with people speaking Tai-icized/Malayish Hoklo in Kelantan, etc., and a long history of Hokkienese settlers.
(菜飯 chaìpng-)
Hoklo for NASI CAMPUR?

For some reason, the "Hong Kong" style of serving food is what I'm more used to. In Indo and Thailand it used to frustrate me that I couldn't sit down and have a budget rice dish made for me on order and served hot. I like the Canto diners with their long list of rice dishes... The 會飯 in TW really bothers me, there's just too much sauce, it's like soup, except the soup is all salt and sugar and MSG and food coloring, etc. But in all these places there are new ways of budget eating to be discovered.
amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo in Hapcai + Singgora, reports from the field

Post by amhoanna » Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:08 am

The road from Hapcai to Taipak led through Alor Star and KL. We crossed at Sadao. On one side, whores and bright lights. On the other, the smell of fresh-cut lawns, a sure sign of continued subservience to Anglo ideals. :mrgreen:

Somewhere around Alor Star, the bus pulled into a remote lot with a patio diner serving caffeine and Malay food. It was mid-evening and the rest of the plaza was shut down except for a little restaurant at the other end, a Chinese restaurant. I walked over to see about maybe buying a pack of kretek. It was striking how hibỉ it was over there. Nobody was behind the counter, but a lady seated at a table seemed to be the owner, so I toggled through the options for a second: Tai Siam? No, no more of that now. Malay? No, that would be weird. Mandarin? Definitely OK, but not for me. Canto? Yeah, I guess. Me: "呢度有冇賣 kretek?"

She didn't understand me, probably b/c of the word KRETEK. My brain woke up. I realized where I was. I said, "Lín cia kám ũ te' boẹ kretek? Lín kám ũ te' boẹ Ìnnỉ ẻ hun?"

The lady confirmed that I was asking about "hunki". A guy at the next table gave the universal SE Asian "no have" hand gesture while saying, "Bỏ." There was something warm, friendly and open about these seemingly downtrodden people.

Back to the caffeine joint where all the busses pull up. I ordered kopi o kosong. The girl said something about "kosong" that I didn't understand. I figured she was confirming my order. Then she proceeded to forget my order -- on purpose, seemed like. I could only chalk it up to the ongoing Malay-Cina impasse that taints life on the Straits side of Malaysia.

The bus dumped us off on a deserted street in central KL around about 4:30 am. Deserted, b/c the city was built on an Anglo model. It seems that buses do not see fit to pick up and drop off passengers in a real terminal when they get to KL, but instead at random points scattered everywhere. Reminded me of the KL light rail system, where no line connects to any other line or even shares ticketing. I stumble off the bus. In a very Malaysian moment, the Malay cabbies go after the Malay psgrs while the Chinese cabbies look at me hopefully since I was one of the only East Asians on the bus. An older gentleman glommed on to me and lied to me gently and sincerely in Cantonese, pretending to be on that "this is Malaysia and we are Chinamen, so I will take care of U" tip.

I went in a convenience store to buy overpriced kretek and get directions. The Malay chick on duty was pointedly rude. When I asked for directions, she cut me off, turned away and pointed at a guy who was sitting by the door reading the paper, as if to say, "Ask one of your own kind." So I asked this young Tnglang guy where I could catch a bus to the LCCT. He spoke high-speed Cantonese and I had to get him to repeat himself a few times. He threw in the expression "lí pat ·mo" a few times. I understood he was asking if I understood, but I was half asleep and it didn't hit me till afterward that he was probably offering a switch to Hokkien -- maybe he figured I was a Hokkien from "the provinces".

As I left the store and lit a kretek, an Indian cabbie came up to me. It hit me that ironically it was easier to talk to an Indian cabbie here than any other race of cabbie. I walked to the bus stop as indicated by the young guy. A couple of minutes later, the young guy himself -- probably on duty at some business nearby -- showed up at the bus stop too and sat there for a couple of minutes before going back. He might've gone out there to make sure I found the bus stop. I've run into this kind of kindness many times in M'sia, mostly from Tnglang but from bumi as well.

Last but not least, hours later, as I approached the gate at LCCT, Formosa-bound, there were two M'sian immigration officials doing a final passport screening just outside the waiting area. The Tnglang one barked something at me in an Asian language waktu dia khoàⁿ tiọ' goá ẻ Tải'oản họ·ciàu. I realized he was speaking Hokkien. He asked me, "Lí sĩ m̃ sĩ Tải'oản lảng?!" It was sure enough interesting to run into such a surprise Hoklo shibboleth at a boarding gate in KL -- no Mandarin involved. I'm guessing they were working to screen out aTiongs with forged or doctored TW passports...
AndrewAndrew
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Re: Hoklo in Hapcai + Singgora, reports from the field

Post by AndrewAndrew » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:17 pm

Amhoanna, you should have told us you were passing through Malaysia! I'm wondering, since you were asking around for kretek, do you speak the Indonesian or Malaysian variant of Malay?
amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo in Hapcai + Singgora, reports from the field

Post by amhoanna » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:13 am

Hi Andrew! At first I was wanting to spend a few days in Kelantan before flying out of KL, but I wound up staying in Hapcai till the bitter end. I know I would've gone if I could've rode past the border with my rental motorbike. And Penang too!

I speak ... Taiwanese Malay. :mrgreen: I've drunk from both wells, so to speak, but I know my Malay skews "Riau-Java" now. I try to cut out Dutch and English loanwords -- talk about a needless source of difference between these two "languages". I periodically switch my email interface and other things between "Bahasa Indonesia" and "Bahasa Melayu" to stay on top of both. I think Sabah-Brunei-Tawau would be a great place to learn "neutral Malay".

During my last little journey in M'sia, I got the feeling that Malay M'sians saw me not as orang asing trying to speak their lingo, but as a Chinese M'sian with poor Malay skills ... or maybe an aTiong? I don't know. So I started trying to use the word "bisa" as early and often as possible. :lol:
AndrewAndrew
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Re: Hoklo in Hapcai + Singgora, reports from the field

Post by AndrewAndrew » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:11 am

amhoanna wrote:Hi Andrew! At first I was wanting to spend a few days in Kelantan before flying out of KL, but I wound up staying in Hapcai till the bitter end. I know I would've gone if I could've rode past the border with my rental motorbike. And Penang too!

I speak ... Taiwanese Malay. :mrgreen: I've drunk from both wells, so to speak, but I know my Malay skews "Riau-Java" now. I try to cut out Dutch and English loanwords -- talk about a needless source of difference between these two "languages". I periodically switch my email interface and other things between "Bahasa Indonesia" and "Bahasa Melayu" to stay on top of both. I think Sabah-Brunei-Tawau would be a great place to learn "neutral Malay".

During my last little journey in M'sia, I got the feeling that Malay M'sians saw me not as orang asing trying to speak their lingo, but as a Chinese M'sian with poor Malay skills ... or maybe an aTiong? I don't know. So I started trying to use the word "bisa" as early and often as possible. :lol:
This may be the issue - because of the number of legal and illegal Indonesian migrant workers in domestic service, construction, low-skilled jobs etc., in Malaysia, many people unfortunately look down upon Indonesians as the poor neighbours. Generally, as a foreigner your treatment may depend on whether you are seen to come from a relatively more or less developed country. It is possible that you would have got better treatment if you had come across as Taiwanese!
amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo in Hapcai + Singgora, reports from the field

Post by amhoanna » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:14 pm

That's interesting! As for showing my hand bahwa aku orang Taiwan?! And going around the country talking to all the bumi in English? I'd rather just be treated rudely, xiexie! :lol: Actually, coming from a poorer country, or pretending to, is a great way to see a richer country. I bet the avg ASEAN expat in Taiwan sees "the real Taiwan" long before the avg NATO expat, b/c the latter tends to encounter a twilight zone of friendly, fawning natives. :lol: Not that orang Taiwan is likely to get this kind of treatment in M'sia.
niuc
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Re: Hoklo in Hapcai + Singgora, reports from the field

Post by niuc » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:47 pm

Amhoanna wrote: Tiọ', kài chùbị. Goá cin ǹgbạng khừ tữ hit ta' melantáu cịt po· kú, choạ cịt ẻ sìn Ìntọ·kàu ẻ bó· tuíⁿkhừ Anlảm. In ẻ imgạk mã kài hóthiaⁿ, hõ· lảng chibẻ.
Hittau sìn Ìntō·kaù ·ê sī kiaⁿ chun bô cuē. Nāsī lí· phahpiàⁿ chē·, ingkai chē· ē tiòh. :mrgreen:
Hùkūn ê “Tengger” lâng, āsī Majapahit ê kiáⁿsun, taītosō· koh sìn Ìntō·kaù. In ê sìngsuaⁿ Bromo lí· ingkai ū thiaⁿ ·kè·.
In kha' bỏ hià' gảu ké.
:lol:
Tạkgẻ nạ ũ kihoẹ thang khoàⁿ SEEDIQ BALE (iáⁿhì), goá cin chuiciàn.
Citpîn tî pòcuá û khuàⁿ ·kè·, m-kú hìkuán to bô leh puaⁿ. Nā’ū gún mā siūⁿ be·h khuàⁿ.
Kámsiā lí· ê chuiciàn. Guânlaî 推薦 mā ēsaí anni thàk. Cuânciu dītián cù "thuiciàn". Taî’uan nng- ê kè ū.
(菜飯 chaìpng-)
Hoklo for NASI CAMPUR?
Nasi campur in the sense of we can choose what dishes we want to put beside or on top of the rice. I think different places in Indonesia may have different style of nasi campur. My impression is that certain places may have fixed dishes if we order their nasi campur.
For some reason, the "Hong Kong" style of serving food is what I'm more used to. In Indo and Thailand it used to frustrate me that I couldn't sit down and have a budget rice dish made for me on order and served hot. I like the Canto diners with their long list of rice dishes...
You are right. SE Asian nasi campur (including Teochew / Hokkien dishes) are not made on order and usually not hot anymore. It is the rice or porridge that usually is still kept hot. To get hot dishes, in Singapore we have to order from 煮炒 cứchá stalls or in restaurants.
The 會飯 in TW really bothers me, there's just too much sauce, it's like soup, except the soup is all salt and sugar and MSG and food coloring, etc. But in all these places there are new ways of budget eating to be discovered.
Never heard of the term. Is it TW version of nasi campur? But too much sauce does sound strange.
The lady confirmed that I was asking about "hunki".
My variant also uses "hunki" much more frequent than just "hun".
A guy at the next table gave the universal SE Asian "no have" hand gesture while saying, "Bỏ."
Is it turning open palm by wrist movement back and forth? Not an universal gesture?
As I left the store and lit a kretek, an Indian cabbie came up to me. It hit me that ironically it was easier to talk to an Indian cabbie here than any other race of cabbie.
I found local Indians usually are much more friendlier than Indians from India, even though let say both are Tamil. Many Singaporean Indians also can speak Malay.
Last but not least, hours later, as I approached the gate at LCCT, Formosa-bound, there were two M'sian immigration officials doing a final passport screening just outside the waiting area. The Tnglang one barked something at me in an Asian language waktu dia khoàⁿ tiọ' goá ẻ Tải'oản họ·ciàu. I realized he was speaking Hokkien. He asked me, "Lí sĩ m̃ sĩ Tải'oản lảng?!" It was sure enough interesting to run into such a surprise Hoklo shibboleth at a boarding gate in KL -- no Mandarin involved. I'm guessing they were working to screen out aTiongs with forged or doctored TW passports...
Interesting. 8)
During my business trips, I only found super slow immigration at LCCT. There was once when 2 Singaporean Malay ladies queuing behind me also complained about that.
niuc
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Re: Hoklo in Hapcai + Singgora, reports from the field

Post by niuc » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:37 am

Oh, my mistake. I meant KLIA not LCCT. When I went to KL for vacation, I went through LCCT and the immigration was OK.
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