More words...about 300 I can't track down.

[Ah-bin]

I found a word for bankrupt in one of Tan Choon Hoe's books!

It is:

Tó-tàⁿ 倒擔 which Douglas defines as a pedlar going bankrupt

Here they use the word in a Taiwanese proverb video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzOIifSO-T4

I think they have Hong-hiám 風險 in the meaning of "disaster" there too. Wow, i am so used to Penang Hokkien as my preferred accent now i have a lot of trouble understanding most of that the first time.

[Ah-bin]

Hello again everyone. I've got another list of ten here I hope some of you can help me with!

1) ankle (Malay) I have the Malay loan "tumit" for heel from one of Tan Choon Hoe's books

2) appointment I have iók chi-lê tiám-siaⁿ 約一个點聲 for "make an appointment", but is there a noun for this?

3) atmosphere

4) Banned, to ban I know there's a word Kìm 禁 as in Kìm-chúi 禁水, and that some people use "salah" for illegal or "banned" such as fireworks, gambling, etc. I've also heard "Tióh-ban" 著ban.

5) bath plug or plug for the sink - is this that by any chance?

6) bay oan 灣 perhaps?

7) body weight I was wondering whether "weight" had an abstract noun

cart, wheelbarrow

9) by chance, accidentally - I know Tiâu-tî 超持 for "on purpose" could be negated for a shade of this meaning, and that Bô-sió-sim 無小心 would be accidentally for breaking things or doing something bad, but how about meeting someone or finding something by chance?

10) cardboard Choá-áh 紙盒 is a cardboard box, but I'm sure there must be a word for cardboard other than Choá 紙

Thanks again!

[SimL]

Hi Ah-bin,

I've got very limited Internet access today, so this will be short with no fancy quoting.

Indeed, "to-taN" is very well known to me. I think it could be used for "bankrupt", but for me it has slightly different connotations. For me, "to-taN" means "going out of business", and denotes more the cessation of activities in the operating of the shop / company than things connected with the owner, whereas "bankrupt" denotes more the financial state of the owner (or any other individual).

So one would say:

- "hi(t)-le tiam, teng-pai u cin-nia ce hue, cia-ku bo ha-mi u mih-kiaN liau; wa siauN si be to-taN liau" (= "that shop which used to have lots of goods, nowadays doesn't have much stuff anymore; I think it's about to go out of business").

Or

- "ai-o! ci(t)-le tiam soa(h) to-taN liau - bo lang ti, mui so-tiau, lai bin am-am" (= "Oh dear! This shop's gone out of business - there's no one there, the door is locked, and it's completely dark inside")

Of course, such a shop goes out of business because the owner is bankrupt, and a shop owner going bankrupt usually means that the shop will close, so the two concepts are very closely related. Nevertheless, I feel that "to-taN" lays more emphasis on the shop itself - the day-to-day running, the presence of staff, the replenishing of supplies, etc. For example, a stockbroker or investor going bankrupt would not be described as "to-taN" because their means of earning income / being rich doesn't have the feeling of "operating / running a shop". Even a plantation, or an aircraft manufacturer going out of business hasn't quite got the feel of "to-taN" for me. But any small shop right up to a supermarket chain does have this feeling.

But this feeling of mine could have arisen purely because I only knew the concept of bankruptcy in this context. It's interesting to see that in Penang Hokkien usage, the scope widened from "pedlar" to "any shop or trading business".

[Ah-bin]

Thanks Sim. I still have to find that "bankrupt" then!

I was just thinking, the difference between kah and Kà would be more pronounced in Penang Hokkien than in Taiwanese. In Taiwanese the two words would sandhi to ká, whereas in PGHK they sandhi to káh and ka respectively.

Another thing I was thinking about was the word for "sneeze"
McGowan has

Phah ka-chhiùⁿ

and Douglas has
hah á-chhiùⁿ
hah-chhiùⁿ
he•h-chhiùⁿ
phah ka-chhiùⁿ and
phah khah-chhiùⁿ!!!!

The only one I've heard so far is hah-chhiùⁿ (or perhaps hah-chhiù from a Penangite. It's interesting that the phah is used in some but not in others, and also interesting (if the vowel is in fact nasalised) that the final -iùⁿ does exist in Penang Hokkien.

[SimL]

Multiple readings for characters is a feature that occurs in almost all dialects, and Mandarin is no exception. That said, it is interesting to see how Mandarin (and, to a lesser extent, Cantonese) speakers seem less conscious of the different readings for characters, which I think is attributed to the relative lack of preservation of tones and finals making these distinctions less obvious in Mandarin.

Hi Mark,

Indeed, I seem to recall one of the former regulars here, Aurelio, telling me in a private email that:

1) Many of the characters which nowawadays in standard Mandarin can be read with different tones are in fact a remnant of this; i.e. one tone would be what was traditionally the literary reading and the other would be what was traditionally the colloquial reading.

2) In the standardization of Mandarin which the PRC undertook in the 1950's and 1960's - when they got rid of many 異體字, and standardized the look of the remaining characters (giving rise to 新- and 舊-forms of the same character) - they in fact also eliminated many literary/colloquial-pairs; retaining just one member of each pair "by declaration". As one might expect, usually the more "obscure" of the two pronunciations was "eliminated" (with "obscure" in the sense that that pronunciation was used in only a few compounds).

Apparently, this is one major reason that Mandarin has far fewer literary vs. colloquial readings. Perhaps it historically already had considerably fewer than Hokkien anyway, but with this extra round of formal elimination, there were so few left that the whole concept of literary vs. colloquial readings became irrelevant to Mandarin, their "vestige trace" being "1" above.

[SimL]

Thanks Sim. I still have to find that "bankrupt" then!

I suppose so, sorry! On the other hand, "to-taN" is also a lovely word, so I hope you'll take that up in the dictionary, under "go out of business"...

The only one I've heard so far is hah-chhiùⁿ (or perhaps hah-chhiù from a Penangite.

I drop the "-h" in the first syllable, and I have nasalization, but retaining the "-h" doesn't sound wrong, and non-nasalized doesn't sound wrong either.

[...] and also interesting (if the vowel is in fact nasalised) that the final -iùⁿ does exist in Penang Hokkien.

I would be tempted to explain the presence of the "-iùⁿ" in Penang Hokkien in this case as due to the fact that this is an onomatopoeia. English has "psst", "tsk, tsk", "pfft", and "huh?" (pronounced [hə~ʔ], with both nasalization and postvocalic glottal stop) which are sounds not otherwise acceptable in English.

[Mark Yong]

Ah-bin wrote:
cardboard Choá-áh 紙盒 is a cardboard box, but I'm sure there must be a word for cardboard other than Choá 紙

I checked with an old friend (actually, my ex-boss from Penang!). “Cardboard” is 紙皮 tsua2-phue5.

Ah-bin wrote:
ankle (Malay) I have the Malay loan "tumit" for heel from one of Tan Choon Hoe's books

From my ex-boss again - 跤目 kha1-bak8. I think it’s also used in Taiwan. He also added that ‘calves’ are kha1-kuai(?). Not sure what the 本字 for kuai is, and all online searches for it so far have not been successful.

Ah-bin wrote:
cart, wheelbarrow

For push-carts and trolleys in general, I would say 捒車 sak7-tshia1. A ‘dustpan’ is 糞斗 pun3-tau2, but I am not sure if, by extension, a ‘wheelbarrow’ can be called 斗車 tau2-tshia1.

Ah-bin wrote:
bay oan 灣 perhaps?

Not a commonly-used word in Penang, but apparently the old name for Bagan Jermal Road is 灣斗路 Uan1-TO2 lO7 “Bay Road”.

Ah-bin wrote:
body weight I was wondering whether "weight" had an abstract noun

Not that I am aware of, other than just 重 tang7. For “body weight”, I would just say 身重 sin1-tang7.

Ah-bin wrote:
by chance, accidentally - I know Tiâu-tî 超持 for "on purpose" could be negated for a shade of this meaning, and that Bô-sió-sim 無小心 would be accidentally for breaking things or doing something bad, but how about meeting someone or finding something by chance?

I would use 拄好 tu1-ho2 for “by chance” (note that in this context, the 拄 tu1 is generally not repeated).

[SimL]

I would use 拄好 tu1-ho2 for “by chance” (note that in this context, the 拄 tu1 is generally not repeated).

This is the only one I can say anything about, from the latest 10. I agree with Mark. "tu-ho" is "accidentally"; "tu-tu-ho" is "just right", "exactly right".

[AndrewAndrew]

Ah-bin wrote:
bay oan 灣 perhaps?

Not a commonly-used word in Penang, but apparently the old name for Bagan Jermal Road is 灣斗路 Uan1-TO2 lO7 “Bay Road”.

Just to clarify that the middle word is pronounced to2 rather than tO2 or to'2

[kkslok]

In taiping hokkien, 便宜 and 梳 are always being used. For bankrupt we say phok-kai.